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>And that's okay! Inventing new algorithms with theoretical significance is not your job! You have other skills and they're of much more immediate value! Excep

>And that's okay! Inventing new algorithms with theoretical significance is not your job! You have other skills and they're of much more immediate value! Except when it comes to getting a job. Forget any of the rest of your skills, because we all know the only thing that matters when interviewing is an ability to recite CS algorithms out of memory and solve obtuse puzzles while pretending you've never seen them.

johnmaguire2013 8y ago
As a self-taught programmer who doesn't have a CS degree, my experience has been that this is not a significant hurdle to any workplace that I would seriously consider applying.
- el_benhameen 8y ago
  Where do you find jobs to apply to? I am also a self-taught programmer without a CS degree, and it seems that a surprisingly large portion of companies use obtuse algo/whiteboarding interview questions. My objection is less that I don’t know or can’t learn them and more that it seems like a waste of time to prep for stuff that isn’t useful.
  - yc12340 8y ago
    Those companies aren't hiring, they are just sifting market for rock starts. I have seen this in numerous places already — when a company has enough product leaders, but still enough money/time to hire a couple more, they begin whiteboarding people. Several years later those product owners will leave, and suddenly the interviews are reduced to "you worked with <insert technology name>? Know what <insert technical term> is? Accepte^W erm, I mean we will contact you tomorrow!" Several weeks after passing the interview you start asking colleagues about their own interviews. And everyone has wastly different experience. Some were hired after being harrassed for hours. Others got job thanks to friendly tip...
    - tekknik 8y ago
      this is false, you can’t blanket companies like this. the job i’m currently at required me to find all palindromes in a set of strings. the company makes media management software.
- diminoten 8y ago
  As a self-taught programmer who doesn't have a CS degree, my experience is substantially different. There are many places where I would seriously consider applying (FAANG) that this would be a significant hurdle. I've taken to competitive programming as a way to prepare myself, but I'm a long way away from being at a level where I'm comfortable applying to the companies I'd like to work for. I think a lot of people like you and I pretend to make the choice of, "I'd never work there" when the reality is, "They'd never hire me", and it does everyone a disservice to continue to perpetuate that lie. It's not a problem or a negative thing that FAANG would never hire me/you, it's just the truth. FAANG would never consider hiring you or me as-is, but if we worked really hard for awhile, they would. This has nothing to do with our ability to do the job they'd hire us for, but that's the game, they want their candidates to be good at the game, and I'm at least willing to play. You aren't willing to play, and that's fine, but don't pretend like you're being the discerning one here.
  - sfuller 8y ago
    As a person without the degree that works at one of these companies, I can honestly say that it's incredibly difficult to get in. What I haven't seen anyone talk about is how it haunts you constantly. Not necessarily coming from other people, but knowing that if someone wanted to call you incompetent, it'd be on you to prove otherwise since you dont have the degree to back up your knowledge. I wish I could go back and get a CS degree just to tame the thought that it could all fall apart so easily.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - samlord 8y ago
      Exactly, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm 6 years in as a web dev and still feel the downsides of not having that paper. There is that constant, need to prove feeling that lingers in my mind. I'd love to work for a big company but I am stuck in my country. Visa approval requires that paper to prove you're skilled. Stuck with opportunities that pay really less, compared to Europe/USA. Don't know about you but, I recently decided to bite the bullet and join a CS degree on the side. Going to be tough 3 years, but it'll be worth having that paper once in for all.
scarface74 8y ago
Except when it comes to getting a job. Forget any of the rest of your skills, because we all know the only thing that matters when interviewing is an ability to recite CS algorithms out of memory and solve obtuse puzzles while pretending you've never seen them. I’ve been a professional developer for 20 years and have never had to recite CS algorithms or solve obtuse problems. My last three jobs I had to whiteboard an architectural diagram of a system, come up with a 90 day plan to create a software development team (I didn’t know I was applying for a lead position), and describe how I would introduce Devops, redundancy, traceability, etc into a system The closest I came to a CS style interview was my second job out of college when I had to explain high level different data structures. That was actually important since we were writing cross platform, C that had to be highly optimized. I’ve gone on lots of interviews with only two rejections - the rest I took my name out of the running once I got the job. I came up as a traditional computer geek - learned how to program in Basic and assembly on an Apple //e in middle school, fell in love with C, spent way too much time on comp.lang.* groups etc. One of my best friends who I worked with across three jobs graduated from one of those infamous for profit schools, for years wouldn’t know an algorithm if it hit him in the face, but spent a lot of time on side projects, reading best practices from books, etc. and is one of the best architects I know.
- pmiller2 8y ago
  I am guessing you don’t work in the Bay Area.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Nowhere near it - and neither do most other developers in the US.
    - pmiller2 8y ago
      Wasn’t trying to imply that’s the case. I’d love to move out of the Bay Area, just to get away from the whole “leetcode or GTFO” interview style, but the fact that there are so many opportunities around here keeps me here for the moment. Well, that and I can actually make enough money to pay my student loans while living somewhat comfortably and saving a little money. If I knew anyplace that had decent weather where I could do those things, I’d be looking at the next flight out.
protonimitate 8y ago
> Forget any of the rest of your skills, because we all know the only thing that matters when interviewing is an ability to recite CS algorithms out of memory and solve obtuse puzzles while pretending you've never seen them This attitude only seems to exist in companies that are seen as 'top n'. Want to stop interview in this manner? Stop applying to these companies. Unfortunately if you want to get the paycheck that comes from these types of companies, you have to play their games. You can't complain the interview system is broken and then only apply to jobs that offer 150k total comp and have brand name recognition. For every FAANG with a broken interview system, there are 5 other decent companies with intelligent people that don't do this crap.

johnmaguire2013 8y ago

As a self-taught programmer who doesn't have a CS degree, my experience has been that this is not a significant hurdle to any workplace that I would seriously consider applying.

el_benhameen 8y ago
Where do you find jobs to apply to? I am also a self-taught programmer without a CS degree, and it seems that a surprisingly large portion of companies use obtuse algo/whiteboarding interview questions. My objection is less that I don’t know or can’t learn them and more that it seems like a waste of time to prep for stuff that isn’t useful.
- yc12340 8y ago
  Those companies aren't hiring, they are just sifting market for rock starts. I have seen this in numerous places already — when a company has enough product leaders, but still enough money/time to hire a couple more, they begin whiteboarding people. Several years later those product owners will leave, and suddenly the interviews are reduced to "you worked with <insert technology name>? Know what <insert technical term> is? Accepte^W erm, I mean we will contact you tomorrow!" Several weeks after passing the interview you start asking colleagues about their own interviews. And everyone has wastly different experience. Some were hired after being harrassed for hours. Others got job thanks to friendly tip...
  - tekknik 8y ago
    this is false, you can’t blanket companies like this. the job i’m currently at required me to find all palindromes in a set of strings. the company makes media management software.
diminoten 8y ago
As a self-taught programmer who doesn't have a CS degree, my experience is substantially different. There are many places where I would seriously consider applying (FAANG) that this would be a significant hurdle. I've taken to competitive programming as a way to prepare myself, but I'm a long way away from being at a level where I'm comfortable applying to the companies I'd like to work for. I think a lot of people like you and I pretend to make the choice of, "I'd never work there" when the reality is, "They'd never hire me", and it does everyone a disservice to continue to perpetuate that lie. It's not a problem or a negative thing that FAANG would never hire me/you, it's just the truth. FAANG would never consider hiring you or me as-is, but if we worked really hard for awhile, they would. This has nothing to do with our ability to do the job they'd hire us for, but that's the game, they want their candidates to be good at the game, and I'm at least willing to play. You aren't willing to play, and that's fine, but don't pretend like you're being the discerning one here.
- sfuller 8y ago
  As a person without the degree that works at one of these companies, I can honestly say that it's incredibly difficult to get in. What I haven't seen anyone talk about is how it haunts you constantly. Not necessarily coming from other people, but knowing that if someone wanted to call you incompetent, it'd be on you to prove otherwise since you dont have the degree to back up your knowledge. I wish I could go back and get a CS degree just to tame the thought that it could all fall apart so easily.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - samlord 8y ago
    Exactly, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm 6 years in as a web dev and still feel the downsides of not having that paper. There is that constant, need to prove feeling that lingers in my mind. I'd love to work for a big company but I am stuck in my country. Visa approval requires that paper to prove you're skilled. Stuck with opportunities that pay really less, compared to Europe/USA. Don't know about you but, I recently decided to bite the bullet and join a CS degree on the side. Going to be tough 3 years, but it'll be worth having that paper once in for all.

scarface74 8y ago

Except when it comes to getting a job. Forget any of the rest of your skills, because we all know the only thing that matters when interviewing is an ability to recite CS algorithms out of memory and solve obtuse puzzles while pretending you've never seen them. I’ve been a professional developer for 20 years and have never had to recite CS algorithms or solve obtuse problems. My last three jobs I had to whiteboard an architectural diagram of a system, come up with a 90 day plan to create a software development team (I didn’t know I was applying for a lead position), and describe how I would introduce Devops, redundancy, traceability, etc into a system The closest I came to a CS style interview was my second job out of college when I had to explain high level different data structures. That was actually important since we were writing cross platform, C that had to be highly optimized. I’ve gone on lots of interviews with only two rejections - the rest I took my name out of the running once I got the job. I came up as a traditional computer geek - learned how to program in Basic and assembly on an Apple //e in middle school, fell in love with C, spent way too much time on comp.lang.* groups etc. One of my best friends who I worked with across three jobs graduated from one of those infamous for profit schools, for years wouldn’t know an algorithm if it hit him in the face, but spent a lot of time on side projects, reading best practices from books, etc. and is one of the best architects I know.

pmiller2 8y ago
I am guessing you don’t work in the Bay Area.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Nowhere near it - and neither do most other developers in the US.
  - pmiller2 8y ago
    Wasn’t trying to imply that’s the case. I’d love to move out of the Bay Area, just to get away from the whole “leetcode or GTFO” interview style, but the fact that there are so many opportunities around here keeps me here for the moment. Well, that and I can actually make enough money to pay my student loans while living somewhat comfortably and saving a little money. If I knew anyplace that had decent weather where I could do those things, I’d be looking at the next flight out.

protonimitate 8y ago

> Forget any of the rest of your skills, because we all know the only thing that matters when interviewing is an ability to recite CS algorithms out of memory and solve obtuse puzzles while pretending you've never seen them This attitude only seems to exist in companies that are seen as 'top n'. Want to stop interview in this manner? Stop applying to these companies. Unfortunately if you want to get the paycheck that comes from these types of companies, you have to play their games. You can't complain the interview system is broken and then only apply to jobs that offer 150k total comp and have brand name recognition. For every FAANG with a broken interview system, there are 5 other decent companies with intelligent people that don't do this crap.