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> From what I've seen, they have been extraordinarily hazy about what the cars can actually do (e.g., time of day, weather, locations, dealing with non-road com

by jimmy1 8y ago

> From what I've seen, they have been extraordinarily hazy about what the cars can actually do (e.g., time of day, weather, locations, dealing with non-road complexity). Not sure this is 100% related, but the driver-assistance technologies in my new 2019 vehicle such as the lane keep assist, blind spot sensors, adaptive cruise control all suffer varying levels in inclement weather. My lane keep assist is completely unreliable in the rain, the collision detection sometimes misfires (but thankfully doesn't brake me) or mistakenly thinks an oncoming car around a bend is in front of me, etc. There are thousands of edge cases I can think of, just with my rudimentary understanding of the technology (namely lidar) are thinking to my self there is just no possible way they have come to a point where they are safe for general use.

Judgmentality 8y ago
Although inclement weather is certainly a challenge, comparing the sensors in your car to the sensors on a commercial self-driving taxi is of limited use. The sensors on your car are designed to be affordable first and foremost, and likely cost hundreds (or maybe in the low thousands on very high end systems) of dollars each so they can sell the vehicle. The self-driving taxis are designed to work no matter what, cost be damned, so they can build out the technology and let the cost come down later with scale. There are single sensors that cost tens of thousands of dollars on some of the A-list players in this space, and sometimes several of them. The sensors cost more than the car, not to mention the cost of the computers themselves potentially costing more than the car (this varies by company). As a rough rule of thumb, the companies testing level 4 autonomous vehicles on the road today are paying around $100k-200k per vehicle in hardware costs alone.
CydeWeys 8y ago
You're comparing apples to oranges. The hardware and software running on fully self-driving cars is much more sophisticated than mere assist aids on regular cars. Your car does not have LIDAR, for starters.
- jimmy1 8y ago
  I was making two separate points about current assistance technology and the capabilities of LIDAR. (I think the technology in Tesla's are pretty good - Elon tends to think LIDAR isn't necessary, who is to say he is wrong and their opinion is any more or less valid?) In either case, it isn't hard to imagine, the fundamental algorithms are the same -- recognize lane markings, adjust steering wheel, that kind of thinking. What do you do in the case that the lane markings have been worn down on the road? Freshly paved roads that haven't been painted? I could go on ad nauseam but point remains: too many corner cases, lidar or not.
  - xapata 8y ago
    > too many corner cases No more than a human needs to handle.
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      Humans are allowed more failures than auto autos.
  - jsight 8y ago
    I'm not sure why you are getting downvoted, tbh. LIDAR helps, but is certainly not sufficient for many of the reasons that you mention. There is a reason that these will be severely geographically restricted for a significant period of time.
  - davidcbc 8y ago
    Teslas also like to accelerate into road barriers. It is hard to consider them a legitimate competitor in the self driving space right now.
    - Animats 8y ago
      Yes. Tesla pulled their self-driving claim last month.[1] Their self-driving video, from 2016, was apparently the one trial that worked out of a large number of tries. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/20/18000884/tesla-full-self-driving-option-gone-musk-autopilot https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/20/18000884/tesla-full-self...
deleted 8y ago
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nradov 8y ago
Current driver assistance systems don't use lidar. It's still too expensive. Some of them rely on stored maps that were created using lidar on dedicated scanning vehicles.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
antaviana 8y ago
My ACC in a 2018 Golf does not seem to work well in a steep ramp uphill with stopped cars. Or perhaps I did not have enough balls to wait a little bit more to see if it would stop after it first accelerated as I approached the stopped cars.

by jimmy1 8y ago

Judgmentality 8y ago

Although inclement weather is certainly a challenge, comparing the sensors in your car to the sensors on a commercial self-driving taxi is of limited use. The sensors on your car are designed to be affordable first and foremost, and likely cost hundreds (or maybe in the low thousands on very high end systems) of dollars each so they can sell the vehicle. The self-driving taxis are designed to work no matter what, cost be damned, so they can build out the technology and let the cost come down later with scale. There are single sensors that cost tens of thousands of dollars on some of the A-list players in this space, and sometimes several of them. The sensors cost more than the car, not to mention the cost of the computers themselves potentially costing more than the car (this varies by company). As a rough rule of thumb, the companies testing level 4 autonomous vehicles on the road today are paying around $100k-200k per vehicle in hardware costs alone.

CydeWeys 8y ago

You're comparing apples to oranges. The hardware and software running on fully self-driving cars is much more sophisticated than mere assist aids on regular cars. Your car does not have LIDAR, for starters.

jimmy1 8y ago
I was making two separate points about current assistance technology and the capabilities of LIDAR. (I think the technology in Tesla's are pretty good - Elon tends to think LIDAR isn't necessary, who is to say he is wrong and their opinion is any more or less valid?) In either case, it isn't hard to imagine, the fundamental algorithms are the same -- recognize lane markings, adjust steering wheel, that kind of thinking. What do you do in the case that the lane markings have been worn down on the road? Freshly paved roads that haven't been painted? I could go on ad nauseam but point remains: too many corner cases, lidar or not.
- xapata 8y ago
  > too many corner cases No more than a human needs to handle.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    Humans are allowed more failures than auto autos.
- jsight 8y ago
  I'm not sure why you are getting downvoted, tbh. LIDAR helps, but is certainly not sufficient for many of the reasons that you mention. There is a reason that these will be severely geographically restricted for a significant period of time.
- davidcbc 8y ago
  Teslas also like to accelerate into road barriers. It is hard to consider them a legitimate competitor in the self driving space right now.
  - Animats 8y ago
    Yes. Tesla pulled their self-driving claim last month.[1] Their self-driving video, from 2016, was apparently the one trial that worked out of a large number of tries. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/20/18000884/tesla-full-self-driving-option-gone-musk-autopilot https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/20/18000884/tesla-full-self...

deleted 8y ago

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nradov 8y ago

Current driver assistance systems don't use lidar. It's still too expensive. Some of them rely on stored maps that were created using lidar on dedicated scanning vehicles.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

antaviana 8y ago

My ACC in a 2018 Golf does not seem to work well in a steep ramp uphill with stopped cars. Or perhaps I did not have enough balls to wait a little bit more to see if it would stop after it first accelerated as I approached the stopped cars.