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Its just astounding how similar all these stories are. Maybe having the machine just switch on to BASIC alone was enough to get people involved. I remember te

Its just astounding how similar all these stories are. Maybe having the machine just switch on to BASIC alone was enough to get people involved. I remember telling my mom to upgrade to a iPad, and she asked what the difference was. She didn't really understand the benefits. The PC also had a browser, it also had netflix etc. Finally, I told her there wasn't this long power up time. You just switch it on and it is right there, and it sort of clicked. Once she got it, there was no going back. That initial power on state -- to a graphical interface, to BASIC -- is just so compelling.

amelius 8y ago
Yes, every PC/Mac session begins with a negative user experience.
- steve1977 8y ago
  I rarely shutdown my Mac to be honest, I usually just reboot if I have to after updates. Otherwise it just sleeps and comes back online pretty much immediately.
  - rusk 8y ago
    On the other hand, I reboot my Windows 10 work computer nightly. Up until this beauty reared it's head [0] I'd probably go months between reboots of my MBP. Protip: It doesn't happen any more since I stopped leaving Safari running in the background. [0] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8475586 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8475586
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  I'm not sure pressing a button and waiting 10 seconds is a "negative user experience" tbh.
  - rusk 8y ago
    10 seconds??? Maybe on my macbook pro but that's far from a universal experience. Even my iPhone takes longer than that ...
  - amelius 8y ago
    How would you feel if clicking a weblink or hitting submit took 10 seconds?
bitwize 8y ago
When I was a kid growing up, programming a computer was like riding a bike or writing with a pencil: the computer was a tool shaped specifically for that purpose. Because as soon as you turned the thing on, the first thing it did was to prompt the user and await the entry of a program. Using other people's software by loading it from tape or disk was a kind of shortcut. You still had to instruct the computer to load the program with a command! A stark contrast to today, where we are presented a menu of "apps" but no obvious way to program the device (and in the case of some common devices, no way at all). People think that kids these days "know tech" because they spend a lot of time in front of "screens" but imho that's not the case... we may have gone a step backwards in terms of tech savviness since the Commodore generation.
dahart 8y ago
> Maybe having the machine just switch on to BASIC alone was enough to get people involved. Reminds me of this recent conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18228740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18228740 Personally, while I think the power on to BASIC definitely was compelling at the time, and it lead to many years of hacking fun for me too in the 80s, I don’t think it can work anymore. It wasn’t just having BASIC, it was having BASIC and also having nothing else to do, except maybe a couple of crappy games that were either too hard or too boring after a few minutes. Today, there’s a vast ocean of amazing choice, and kids don’t have the patience for something like a BASIC terminal. I’ve tried and tried with my kids, and they can’t bring themselves to choose programming or playing in a text shell, even though they’re super interested in the ideas and want to learn to make games.
- rusk 8y ago
  This space is nowadays occupied by Raspberry Pi. Cheap hackable hobby platform. wrt your kids, programming just isn't for everybody [0] [0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-f...
  - dahart 8y ago
    > wrt your kids, programming just isn't for everybody The paper that article was based on has been retracted. That should make you at least think twice about claiming it's true. It's also studying college undergrads, not children. And it's from 2006, before the iPhone. I honestly don't think it's very relevant to the issue I was referring to. In any case, my kids are both interested in programming and able to do it. They just choose not to, most of the time, because there is a flood of more entertaining and very well designed choices. We didn't have anything like this level of choice when I was a kid. BASIC was it, that's the beauty of it. The environment was so limited, you had no choice but learn to program. At work, we're seeing patterns in hiring as well. Older applicants have all been programming since early teens, while the vast majority of new college grads today started programming in college. It definitely feels like programming is starting later in life, even though general computer literacy is starting earlier and is much more widespread.

amelius 8y ago

Yes, every PC/Mac session begins with a negative user experience.

steve1977 8y ago
I rarely shutdown my Mac to be honest, I usually just reboot if I have to after updates. Otherwise it just sleeps and comes back online pretty much immediately.
- rusk 8y ago
  On the other hand, I reboot my Windows 10 work computer nightly. Up until this beauty reared it's head [0] I'd probably go months between reboots of my MBP. Protip: It doesn't happen any more since I stopped leaving Safari running in the background. [0] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8475586 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8475586
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
I'm not sure pressing a button and waiting 10 seconds is a "negative user experience" tbh.
- rusk 8y ago
  10 seconds??? Maybe on my macbook pro but that's far from a universal experience. Even my iPhone takes longer than that ...
- amelius 8y ago
  How would you feel if clicking a weblink or hitting submit took 10 seconds?

bitwize 8y ago

When I was a kid growing up, programming a computer was like riding a bike or writing with a pencil: the computer was a tool shaped specifically for that purpose. Because as soon as you turned the thing on, the first thing it did was to prompt the user and await the entry of a program. Using other people's software by loading it from tape or disk was a kind of shortcut. You still had to instruct the computer to load the program with a command! A stark contrast to today, where we are presented a menu of "apps" but no obvious way to program the device (and in the case of some common devices, no way at all). People think that kids these days "know tech" because they spend a lot of time in front of "screens" but imho that's not the case... we may have gone a step backwards in terms of tech savviness since the Commodore generation.

dahart 8y ago

> Maybe having the machine just switch on to BASIC alone was enough to get people involved. Reminds me of this recent conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18228740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18228740 Personally, while I think the power on to BASIC definitely was compelling at the time, and it lead to many years of hacking fun for me too in the 80s, I don’t think it can work anymore. It wasn’t just having BASIC, it was having BASIC and also having nothing else to do, except maybe a couple of crappy games that were either too hard or too boring after a few minutes. Today, there’s a vast ocean of amazing choice, and kids don’t have the patience for something like a BASIC terminal. I’ve tried and tried with my kids, and they can’t bring themselves to choose programming or playing in a text shell, even though they’re super interested in the ideas and want to learn to make games.

rusk 8y ago
This space is nowadays occupied by Raspberry Pi. Cheap hackable hobby platform. wrt your kids, programming just isn't for everybody [0] [0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-f...
- dahart 8y ago
  > wrt your kids, programming just isn't for everybody The paper that article was based on has been retracted. That should make you at least think twice about claiming it's true. It's also studying college undergrads, not children. And it's from 2006, before the iPhone. I honestly don't think it's very relevant to the issue I was referring to. In any case, my kids are both interested in programming and able to do it. They just choose not to, most of the time, because there is a flood of more entertaining and very well designed choices. We didn't have anything like this level of choice when I was a kid. BASIC was it, that's the beauty of it. The environment was so limited, you had no choice but learn to program. At work, we're seeing patterns in hiring as well. Older applicants have all been programming since early teens, while the vast majority of new college grads today started programming in college. It definitely feels like programming is starting later in life, even though general computer literacy is starting earlier and is much more widespread.