15 ms·

How Harley-Davidson's All-In Bet on Its Past Crippled Its Future

45 points by kqr2 8y ago

purple_ducks 8y ago
To me, Harleys and their equivalently ignorantly noisy UK cousin(Triumphs) should be legislated out of existence in their current form. It's the equivalent of a child banging a drum for attention.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
claydavisss 8y ago
No "faiulure" here...HD has lasted far longer than the average corporation and created an iconic product that still has hardcore devotees. The electric bike will sell poorly and HD will retreat back into its market for obnoxious hogs. One day when that market goes away, they can sell the brand to some Chinese billionaire and call it a day. Any company that operates profitably for a generation is a success in my book regardless of how it ends.
- aklemm 8y ago
  Brutal, but sounds about right.
noir_lord 8y ago
I'm not a boomer (38) and would still like a motorcycle now that I have the time and money to enjoy it but a Harley doesn't appeal at all (I'm English), they really haven't moved with the times, if I was going to get anything it would be something like an early 80's CB750 as when I was a kid they where the 'cool' bikes and I'd likely kill myself on anything more modern in short order.
- dugditches 8y ago
  Not necessarily true. 1. As 'more modern' bikes are lighter, have better brakes, suspension/handling and most importantly ABS. 2. Harley can't move on with the times. They did with their 'V-Rod' featuring a 'modern' liquid cooled engine designed by Porsche. They discontinued it this year. Harley riders want the old Harley image. They're trying to pivot into new markets as their customer base is becoming too old to ride or simply dying off. https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/pan-america.html https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-veh...
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    Anyone who says they think they might kill themselves on a certain type of bike shouldn't be allowed near any type of bike. They are incredible fun but unquestionably dangerous.
    - heywot 8y ago
      Or they know their limits. I, for one, have refused to purchase a sport bike on numerous occasions - including my "dream bike" - because I know its too much bike and that might get me into trouble. I've never felt that way about any of my cruisers or dirt bikes.
      - noir_lord 8y ago
        That's it exactly, my friends went through a superbike phrase and it was crash after crash at best written off bikes at worst hospital stays (fortunately). If I go modern I'll probably get something like an SV650. It's more the ability to ride long distances comfortably I want not pant wetting speed.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      " Anyone who says they think they might kill themselves on a certain type of bike shouldn't be allowed near any type of bike." Or maybe they are self aware. Realistically only a very small share of the people who are riding a 100+hp bike can really handle that power.
      - VBprogrammer 8y ago
        My motorcycle has 70hp. I can tell you that on the average ride I rarely use half of that. I don't think that'd be any different if my bike had 170hp. Realistically on the road you can't use that kind of power unless you are just trying to lose your licence on an empty motorway (although it's still fun to have it).
- elorant 8y ago
  You Brits manufacture some of the most beautiful bikes like Nortons, Royal Enfields and Triumphs. Great looking bikes and very easy to live with and maintain. I'd definitely pick one of those instead of a Harley any given day. Harley's are very cumbersome to drive, and maintenance costs are very high.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  As someone who was riding those 80s CBs, Zs, and GS's, at the time, all I can say is don't. Outside of things like the GPz900R, Katanas etc, they usually handled pretty horribly. Old Ducatis and Laverdas of that era handled really well compared to most of the Japanese bikes back then, but slowly. Flickable they were not, so plan Italian lines well in advance. :) The biggest transformation of bikes the last 20 years has been handling. Now they generally all handle pretty well, with a few exceptions. So if you like the style of early CBs and Zs, pick one of the many retro remakes that have come out in the last 10 or so years.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Even as a slow and careful driver you are much better off with a newer bike. They handle better, brakes are better, you have much more leeway in an emergency. Just don't get a 100+hp monster.
- mplewis 8y ago
  There are a couple modern bikes out there that would be great for you! The Rebel 500 is gorgeous, a bit retro, and will keep you out of trouble. Since it's being made today, you won't run into the parts availability issues you will see with a vintage CB750. https://powersports.honda.com/2018/rebel-500.aspx https://powersports.honda.com/2018/rebel-500.aspx
- randlet 8y ago
  "80's CB750 as when I was a kid they where the 'cool' bikes and I'd likely kill myself on anything more modern in short order." Modern motorcycles are way, way safer than an early 80's CB750. ABS, traction control, brakes and tires that are light years ahead of 80's tech, lighter weight, more agile etc. The only reason to ride a CB750 is because they're cool, not safer!
- alistairSH 8y ago
  There are modern bikes that fall into the same market niche as the old CBs. For small displacement bikes that are light, inexpensive, and reliable, you could consider the Honda CB300F, which is available with ABS and a modern 300cc engine. If you must have a slightly more retro style, there's the Suzuki TU250X - it's a solid all-around bike, but no ABS. Both will likely be just as fast as the older CB750, handle better, stop better, and probably not cost much more money (CBs have gone way up in value, plus whatever time you spend brining it back to reliable condition). If you want a mid-displacement bike, yeah, they're fast, a bit more money, but still better bikes in just about every way compared to anything form the 70s.
debacle 8y ago
This article is romancing a company that has had consistent quality issues in the last few decades, sold its image out to WalMart in the 2000s, and doesn't appeal to modern riders.
thecrumb 8y ago
Buell(er)?
- Aloha 8y ago
  Yeah, HD didnt really understand the Buell brand when they bought them, and eventually killed the product in the process.
bartread 8y ago
I like the cruiser riding style, and the aesthetic of at least some of the bikes. It can be very comfortable for long distances (I rode 1200 miles in NZ on a HD Road King), but I expect that style to be married to some substance. I'd like a bike that: - Doesn't weigh more than the moon - Can do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds or so - Has a top speed >150mph - Has fuel economy >40mpg (imperial) - Has decent wind protection - Hard, capacious luggage (both panniers and topbox) - New OTR cost of £15-20k, ideally at the lower end of that range The fundamental problem with Harley Davidson is they're all show and no go. All that sound and thunder sadly amounts to very little. Triumph and Moto Guzzi do better, and the latter have embraced a more modern/futuristic aesthetic (as with the Suzuki M109R BOSS), but for almost all cruisers (Rocket 3 aside) power disappointingly tops out at around 100 +/- 20 bhp. Yes, that's right: I'm saying I want it all, and I'm making no apology whatsoever for that. I want the riding style and looks of a cruiser (or futuristic cruiser), married to the light weight and performance of a sports or hyperbike (ZZR1400 weighs in at a "mere" 270kg or so). Motorcycle companies: I know you can do this so please stop faffing around and get on with it.
- Aloha 8y ago
  I'd argue that the difference in riding position between a cruiser and a performance motorcycle make this a largely impossible proposition.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  I think mostly the problem you've got there is that people looking for most of those things would go out and buy a BMW 1200GS. Ok, it's not a cruiser but it's just about as comfortable to sit on. All the luggage options and wind protection you could ask for and well ridden can keep up with most sports bikes in the real world. There are some bikes which get close to your brief; you mentioned the Rocket III but if you're willing to compromise on what a cruiser would look like you've also get the Ducati Diavel. I'm not sure how much more room there is in this segment. I think in some ways that's probably part of the problem Harley Davidson. New genres of motorcycles have come an gone without them making any attempt at competing with them.
  - 8y ago
jdhn 8y ago
Two points that I wish that they would've touched on more in the article is the general downturn in motorcycle sales in the US, as well as the huge used market. To the first point, motorcycle sales in the US never really recovered from the recession, and it doesn't seem like they're coming back anytime soon. Is this because new motorcycles (regardless of brand) cost more than they used to, a lack of disposable income among the target audience, or failure of motorcycle manufactures to branch out to new audiences? I don't have the answers to these questions, but I think that they all play a role into the sales decline. Secondly (and more specific to Harley), the used motorcycle market is HUGE. Go on Craigslist and look at the motorcycles that are on sale. Near me, it seems that every 3rd or 4th bike is a Harley. When the used market is so large and the models don't change that much from year to year, why would you buy new when you could pick up a slightly used bike and save 10% to 20% off of the sticker price?
- abakker 8y ago
  That second point is very important. I know a dozen motorcycle riders (only 1 harley owner), but all the bikes are used. With fewer parts, fewer features, and no phone/stereo/ac/heated seats/navigation/adaptive cruse control, there's not a lot of innovation in the actual ride of a motorcycle to buy.
  - ip26 8y ago
    Motorcycles have also not kept up with the times on engine technology. They only began switching away from carburetors around 2005. Drag your feet on technological advancement, and your year-to-year product consequently changes less. Suspension design has also remained really simple to my eyes compared to cars. Maybe it can't be improved, but the last major innovation/change in suspension was in the mid 70's with single shock design.
    - beat 8y ago
      How many Harleys are still sold with hardtail rear ends? It's part of the aesthetic. It's not supposed to be comfortable. Or "safe".
galonk 8y ago
I’m surprised a company whose whole business model is allowing old white guys to essentially troll (be so loud and annoying as to bother everyone else in the visinity) is not doing well in the age of Trump.
- mrob 8y ago
  A Harley traveling past you at speed is loud enough to cause physical pain if you don't cover your ears. It's a product designed such that normal use is anti-social behavior. If you want to drive a painfully loud vehicle you should do so on a private race track. They should be banned from public roads.
  - cglace 8y ago
    Yeah, I love when a pack of them pull up beside a restaurant downtown when you are sitting outside. Really adds to the ambiance.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    When I had my motorcycle I refused to ride on a group with anyone who has open pipes or a Harley. The sound is fun for a few seconds and then it's just annoying before it gets painful after a while. I don't understand why there are no rules on sound emissions. There are some riders who wake up the whole neighborhood in the morning.
    - magduf 8y ago
      >I don't understand they there are no rules on sound emissions. There are, in some localities. When I lived in Arizona, there was a big flap because the Harley bikers liked to cruise through a town called Carefree on the way to some biker bar in Cave Creek, and Carefree got tired of it an enacted a noise ordinance, and started pulling over and ticketing motorcycle riders who were too noisy. The Harley riders all screamed "discrimination". As far as I know, Carefree never let up on its ordinance, and the bikers just had to go around the town.
    - marktangotango 8y ago
nimbius 8y ago
Speaking as an engine mechanic, and avid motorcycle rider, Harley has burned a lot of bridges. This island they stand on now is their own doing. At some point they killed themselves with the myopic nature of metrics. understanding the average rider age of a harley led them to start investing in motor homes and golf carts assuming the market was going to vanish underneath them. At the same time, the Milwaukee managers froze the plant in time out of sheer terror that any change would drive away their customers. in the 80's the "engine sound" patent was recognized which only nailed Harleys other foot to the floor. Harley still ran on a chain primary drive by 2007...the last car that ran on this was the Packard in 1930. The only innovation that came to this was plastic guide shoes to replace the old metal ones out of a cost saving effort that basically empowered the transmission to kill the bike after 20,000 miles. Management went completely deaf. in 2001 the death wobble for Dyna's sold to the california highway patrol was ignored twice by the company, and once proven by CHP riders on a closed course, the company begrudgingly issued a parts fix but no recall, and no replacement. Harley in 2010 still had single crankpin, inlay type piston rod engine made largely from pot steel iron that pushed 650lbs in their smallest sportster motorcycles. They were failing a plurality of foreign emissions controls for both noise and air quality but didnt seem to care. 33 years ago most managers remembered the tariff they lobbied government for, and how it saved harley. They expected another one. comparatively they were getting crushed by better bikes. Japan had double crankpin, liquid cooled, fuel injected, balanced and computerized engines that outlasted harley davidson by hundreds of thousands of miles and ran on low maintenance solutions like belt drive and shaft drive that didnt need service for 100,000 miles. Even japans air cooled monsters like the Yamaha Raider 1900cc in 2006 could idle comfortably in 100 degree summer heat...something Harleys largest models that were still 300cc's smaller could not achieve without shutting down a cylinder and entering "parade mode" Harleys v-rod, their only new design, came from Porsche, and their new exhaust came from a consortium of other motorcycle manufacturers who offered options and techniques for compliance. They desperately want to get out of the manufacturing business and into the 'branding' business. Sure, the milwaukee 8 is a nice new engine, but at 40-50 grand for a new dyna glide, harley still misses the point. Gone are the boomers that will drop that kind of money. I'll go for a Honda Goldwing which is not only more powerful, but more reliable and cheaper, than a new bagger. Harley arguably isnt a motorcycle company at all, its desperately trying to just be a household brand. Better US motorcycle companies like Victory and indian (polaris) exist with modern double overhead cam design, liquid cooling and keyless start to name a few features, but victory learned the hard way what it means to go toe to toe with a brand that exists as a living anachronism.
Jedi72 8y ago
As someone who loves Japanese supersport bikes, I wonder if in 40 years I will be the dying breed of people who just want to cling to old glories on a 600cc petrol engine thats about 50x more bike than I'll ever be able to handle :,) Ride on, old dudes.
mcguire 8y ago
Weird, they don't mention the recently cancelled V-Rod.
pmontra 8y ago
I'm under the impression that Harley customers (and customers of similar bikes of other brands) like noise and acceleration. An ebike has acceleration but by definition is quiet. I like speed and acceleration and I hate loud noise (one of the few that like modern Formula 1 hybrids.) I could buy an ebike but I'm not a biker. Would Harley be able to convert its customers to the new paradigm or should it rebuild a totally different customer base? A Harley owner once told me that he'll never buy a silent electric bike. He was also worried about people not noticing a silent bike coming and crossing the road at the wrong moment.
- pault 8y ago
  He can put a speaker on it and make it sound like the light cycles from Tron.;)
- mcguire 8y ago
  Short, easy answer: Nope. They've tried before. (Argh. "Loud pipes save lives." Gah.)
squozzer 8y ago
Not a rider, but HD's story sounds very similar to Gibson's and Fender's - whose past is going extinct but having difficulty moving or even figuring out their future.
- wambotron 8y ago
  I don't think these match up very well. While Gibson's most iconic guitar is the LP and Fender's is the Strat, they still make a bunch of different guitars that are NOT expensive, but play great. This is moreso true of Fender, who makes amazing guitars in the $500-750 range. They also don't come with any particular image associated with them. Strats have been used for all sorts of music, from Iron Maiden to John Mayer. Gibson feels a bit more stuck to an image, but it doesn't feel old and crusty the way Harley does.
wambotron 8y ago
I bought my first bike here earlier this year aged 35. I took the MSF course at a Harley dealer and talked a bit about what bike might fit me best for riding as a casual/weekend rider (up to maybe 5k miles per year if I ride a lot). No one really recommended a Harley. I got a couple Indian recs, but mostly it was Yamaha and Honda. I ended up with a 2017 Honda Shadow Phantom after sitting on it for a while in the show room of the Honda dealer and I'm quite happy with it. Harley absolutely feels like a fashion thing to me. I know a few folks who really like them, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything other than "they're Harleys, man." I don't think the Harley brand is going to die off, but it does feel a bit pigeonholed right now as the rough and tumble, leather & dome helmets type of rider right now. Honda doesn't feel like any particular type of bike. I don't feel like I should be wearing anything in particular on it, and I haven't had anyone look at me oddly for riding a matte black cruiser with a high-vis helmet yet. I feel like I would've if I were on a Harley.
eweise 8y ago
I rode 10,000 miles all over the US one summer on a harley 883 sportster. Loved it and the bike ran great. I actually like the lack of technology on the bikes because they are easy to fix.

45 points by kqr2 8y ago

To me, Harleys and their equivalently ignorantly noisy UK cousin(Triumphs) should be legislated out of existence in their current form. It's the equivalent of a child banging a drum for attention.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

claydavisss 8y ago

No "faiulure" here...HD has lasted far longer than the average corporation and created an iconic product that still has hardcore devotees. The electric bike will sell poorly and HD will retreat back into its market for obnoxious hogs. One day when that market goes away, they can sell the brand to some Chinese billionaire and call it a day. Any company that operates profitably for a generation is a success in my book regardless of how it ends.

aklemm 8y ago
Brutal, but sounds about right.

noir_lord 8y ago

I'm not a boomer (38) and would still like a motorcycle now that I have the time and money to enjoy it but a Harley doesn't appeal at all (I'm English), they really haven't moved with the times, if I was going to get anything it would be something like an early 80's CB750 as when I was a kid they where the 'cool' bikes and I'd likely kill myself on anything more modern in short order.

dugditches 8y ago
Not necessarily true. 1. As 'more modern' bikes are lighter, have better brakes, suspension/handling and most importantly ABS. 2. Harley can't move on with the times. They did with their 'V-Rod' featuring a 'modern' liquid cooled engine designed by Porsche. They discontinued it this year. Harley riders want the old Harley image. They're trying to pivot into new markets as their customer base is becoming too old to ride or simply dying off. https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/pan-america.html https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-veh...
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  Anyone who says they think they might kill themselves on a certain type of bike shouldn't be allowed near any type of bike. They are incredible fun but unquestionably dangerous.
  - heywot 8y ago
    Or they know their limits. I, for one, have refused to purchase a sport bike on numerous occasions - including my "dream bike" - because I know its too much bike and that might get me into trouble. I've never felt that way about any of my cruisers or dirt bikes.
    - noir_lord 8y ago
      That's it exactly, my friends went through a superbike phrase and it was crash after crash at best written off bikes at worst hospital stays (fortunately). If I go modern I'll probably get something like an SV650. It's more the ability to ride long distances comfortably I want not pant wetting speed.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    " Anyone who says they think they might kill themselves on a certain type of bike shouldn't be allowed near any type of bike." Or maybe they are self aware. Realistically only a very small share of the people who are riding a 100+hp bike can really handle that power.
    - VBprogrammer 8y ago
      My motorcycle has 70hp. I can tell you that on the average ride I rarely use half of that. I don't think that'd be any different if my bike had 170hp. Realistically on the road you can't use that kind of power unless you are just trying to lose your licence on an empty motorway (although it's still fun to have it).
elorant 8y ago
You Brits manufacture some of the most beautiful bikes like Nortons, Royal Enfields and Triumphs. Great looking bikes and very easy to live with and maintain. I'd definitely pick one of those instead of a Harley any given day. Harley's are very cumbersome to drive, and maintenance costs are very high.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
As someone who was riding those 80s CBs, Zs, and GS's, at the time, all I can say is don't. Outside of things like the GPz900R, Katanas etc, they usually handled pretty horribly. Old Ducatis and Laverdas of that era handled really well compared to most of the Japanese bikes back then, but slowly. Flickable they were not, so plan Italian lines well in advance. :) The biggest transformation of bikes the last 20 years has been handling. Now they generally all handle pretty well, with a few exceptions. So if you like the style of early CBs and Zs, pick one of the many retro remakes that have come out in the last 10 or so years.
maxxxxx 8y ago
Even as a slow and careful driver you are much better off with a newer bike. They handle better, brakes are better, you have much more leeway in an emergency. Just don't get a 100+hp monster.
mplewis 8y ago
There are a couple modern bikes out there that would be great for you! The Rebel 500 is gorgeous, a bit retro, and will keep you out of trouble. Since it's being made today, you won't run into the parts availability issues you will see with a vintage CB750. https://powersports.honda.com/2018/rebel-500.aspx https://powersports.honda.com/2018/rebel-500.aspx
randlet 8y ago
"80's CB750 as when I was a kid they where the 'cool' bikes and I'd likely kill myself on anything more modern in short order." Modern motorcycles are way, way safer than an early 80's CB750. ABS, traction control, brakes and tires that are light years ahead of 80's tech, lighter weight, more agile etc. The only reason to ride a CB750 is because they're cool, not safer!
alistairSH 8y ago
There are modern bikes that fall into the same market niche as the old CBs. For small displacement bikes that are light, inexpensive, and reliable, you could consider the Honda CB300F, which is available with ABS and a modern 300cc engine. If you must have a slightly more retro style, there's the Suzuki TU250X - it's a solid all-around bike, but no ABS. Both will likely be just as fast as the older CB750, handle better, stop better, and probably not cost much more money (CBs have gone way up in value, plus whatever time you spend brining it back to reliable condition). If you want a mid-displacement bike, yeah, they're fast, a bit more money, but still better bikes in just about every way compared to anything form the 70s.

debacle 8y ago

This article is romancing a company that has had consistent quality issues in the last few decades, sold its image out to WalMart in the 2000s, and doesn't appeal to modern riders.

thecrumb 8y ago

Buell(er)?

Aloha 8y ago
Yeah, HD didnt really understand the Buell brand when they bought them, and eventually killed the product in the process.

bartread 8y ago

I like the cruiser riding style, and the aesthetic of at least some of the bikes. It can be very comfortable for long distances (I rode 1200 miles in NZ on a HD Road King), but I expect that style to be married to some substance. I'd like a bike that: - Doesn't weigh more than the moon - Can do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds or so - Has a top speed >150mph - Has fuel economy >40mpg (imperial) - Has decent wind protection - Hard, capacious luggage (both panniers and topbox) - New OTR cost of £15-20k, ideally at the lower end of that range The fundamental problem with Harley Davidson is they're all show and no go. All that sound and thunder sadly amounts to very little. Triumph and Moto Guzzi do better, and the latter have embraced a more modern/futuristic aesthetic (as with the Suzuki M109R BOSS), but for almost all cruisers (Rocket 3 aside) power disappointingly tops out at around 100 +/- 20 bhp. Yes, that's right: I'm saying I want it all, and I'm making no apology whatsoever for that. I want the riding style and looks of a cruiser (or futuristic cruiser), married to the light weight and performance of a sports or hyperbike (ZZR1400 weighs in at a "mere" 270kg or so). Motorcycle companies: I know you can do this so please stop faffing around and get on with it.

Aloha 8y ago
I'd argue that the difference in riding position between a cruiser and a performance motorcycle make this a largely impossible proposition.
VBprogrammer 8y ago
I think mostly the problem you've got there is that people looking for most of those things would go out and buy a BMW 1200GS. Ok, it's not a cruiser but it's just about as comfortable to sit on. All the luggage options and wind protection you could ask for and well ridden can keep up with most sports bikes in the real world. There are some bikes which get close to your brief; you mentioned the Rocket III but if you're willing to compromise on what a cruiser would look like you've also get the Ducati Diavel. I'm not sure how much more room there is in this segment. I think in some ways that's probably part of the problem Harley Davidson. New genres of motorcycles have come an gone without them making any attempt at competing with them.
- 8y ago

jdhn 8y ago

Two points that I wish that they would've touched on more in the article is the general downturn in motorcycle sales in the US, as well as the huge used market. To the first point, motorcycle sales in the US never really recovered from the recession, and it doesn't seem like they're coming back anytime soon. Is this because new motorcycles (regardless of brand) cost more than they used to, a lack of disposable income among the target audience, or failure of motorcycle manufactures to branch out to new audiences? I don't have the answers to these questions, but I think that they all play a role into the sales decline. Secondly (and more specific to Harley), the used motorcycle market is HUGE. Go on Craigslist and look at the motorcycles that are on sale. Near me, it seems that every 3rd or 4th bike is a Harley. When the used market is so large and the models don't change that much from year to year, why would you buy new when you could pick up a slightly used bike and save 10% to 20% off of the sticker price?

abakker 8y ago
That second point is very important. I know a dozen motorcycle riders (only 1 harley owner), but all the bikes are used. With fewer parts, fewer features, and no phone/stereo/ac/heated seats/navigation/adaptive cruse control, there's not a lot of innovation in the actual ride of a motorcycle to buy.
- ip26 8y ago
  Motorcycles have also not kept up with the times on engine technology. They only began switching away from carburetors around 2005. Drag your feet on technological advancement, and your year-to-year product consequently changes less. Suspension design has also remained really simple to my eyes compared to cars. Maybe it can't be improved, but the last major innovation/change in suspension was in the mid 70's with single shock design.
  - beat 8y ago
    How many Harleys are still sold with hardtail rear ends? It's part of the aesthetic. It's not supposed to be comfortable. Or "safe".

galonk 8y ago

I’m surprised a company whose whole business model is allowing old white guys to essentially troll (be so loud and annoying as to bother everyone else in the visinity) is not doing well in the age of Trump.

mrob 8y ago
A Harley traveling past you at speed is loud enough to cause physical pain if you don't cover your ears. It's a product designed such that normal use is anti-social behavior. If you want to drive a painfully loud vehicle you should do so on a private race track. They should be banned from public roads.
- cglace 8y ago
  Yeah, I love when a pack of them pull up beside a restaurant downtown when you are sitting outside. Really adds to the ambiance.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  When I had my motorcycle I refused to ride on a group with anyone who has open pipes or a Harley. The sound is fun for a few seconds and then it's just annoying before it gets painful after a while. I don't understand why there are no rules on sound emissions. There are some riders who wake up the whole neighborhood in the morning.
  - magduf 8y ago
    >I don't understand they there are no rules on sound emissions. There are, in some localities. When I lived in Arizona, there was a big flap because the Harley bikers liked to cruise through a town called Carefree on the way to some biker bar in Cave Creek, and Carefree got tired of it an enacted a noise ordinance, and started pulling over and ticketing motorcycle riders who were too noisy. The Harley riders all screamed "discrimination". As far as I know, Carefree never let up on its ordinance, and the bikers just had to go around the town.
  - marktangotango 8y ago

nimbius 8y ago

Speaking as an engine mechanic, and avid motorcycle rider, Harley has burned a lot of bridges. This island they stand on now is their own doing. At some point they killed themselves with the myopic nature of metrics. understanding the average rider age of a harley led them to start investing in motor homes and golf carts assuming the market was going to vanish underneath them. At the same time, the Milwaukee managers froze the plant in time out of sheer terror that any change would drive away their customers. in the 80's the "engine sound" patent was recognized which only nailed Harleys other foot to the floor. Harley still ran on a chain primary drive by 2007...the last car that ran on this was the Packard in 1930. The only innovation that came to this was plastic guide shoes to replace the old metal ones out of a cost saving effort that basically empowered the transmission to kill the bike after 20,000 miles. Management went completely deaf. in 2001 the death wobble for Dyna's sold to the california highway patrol was ignored twice by the company, and once proven by CHP riders on a closed course, the company begrudgingly issued a parts fix but no recall, and no replacement. Harley in 2010 still had single crankpin, inlay type piston rod engine made largely from pot steel iron that pushed 650lbs in their smallest sportster motorcycles. They were failing a plurality of foreign emissions controls for both noise and air quality but didnt seem to care. 33 years ago most managers remembered the tariff they lobbied government for, and how it saved harley. They expected another one. comparatively they were getting crushed by better bikes. Japan had double crankpin, liquid cooled, fuel injected, balanced and computerized engines that outlasted harley davidson by hundreds of thousands of miles and ran on low maintenance solutions like belt drive and shaft drive that didnt need service for 100,000 miles. Even japans air cooled monsters like the Yamaha Raider 1900cc in 2006 could idle comfortably in 100 degree summer heat...something Harleys largest models that were still 300cc's smaller could not achieve without shutting down a cylinder and entering "parade mode" Harleys v-rod, their only new design, came from Porsche, and their new exhaust came from a consortium of other motorcycle manufacturers who offered options and techniques for compliance. They desperately want to get out of the manufacturing business and into the 'branding' business. Sure, the milwaukee 8 is a nice new engine, but at 40-50 grand for a new dyna glide, harley still misses the point. Gone are the boomers that will drop that kind of money. I'll go for a Honda Goldwing which is not only more powerful, but more reliable and cheaper, than a new bagger. Harley arguably isnt a motorcycle company at all, its desperately trying to just be a household brand. Better US motorcycle companies like Victory and indian (polaris) exist with modern double overhead cam design, liquid cooling and keyless start to name a few features, but victory learned the hard way what it means to go toe to toe with a brand that exists as a living anachronism.

Jedi72 8y ago

As someone who loves Japanese supersport bikes, I wonder if in 40 years I will be the dying breed of people who just want to cling to old glories on a 600cc petrol engine thats about 50x more bike than I'll ever be able to handle :,) Ride on, old dudes.

mcguire 8y ago

Weird, they don't mention the recently cancelled V-Rod.

pmontra 8y ago

I'm under the impression that Harley customers (and customers of similar bikes of other brands) like noise and acceleration. An ebike has acceleration but by definition is quiet. I like speed and acceleration and I hate loud noise (one of the few that like modern Formula 1 hybrids.) I could buy an ebike but I'm not a biker. Would Harley be able to convert its customers to the new paradigm or should it rebuild a totally different customer base? A Harley owner once told me that he'll never buy a silent electric bike. He was also worried about people not noticing a silent bike coming and crossing the road at the wrong moment.

pault 8y ago
He can put a speaker on it and make it sound like the light cycles from Tron.;)
mcguire 8y ago
Short, easy answer: Nope. They've tried before. (Argh. "Loud pipes save lives." Gah.)

squozzer 8y ago

Not a rider, but HD's story sounds very similar to Gibson's and Fender's - whose past is going extinct but having difficulty moving or even figuring out their future.

wambotron 8y ago
I don't think these match up very well. While Gibson's most iconic guitar is the LP and Fender's is the Strat, they still make a bunch of different guitars that are NOT expensive, but play great. This is moreso true of Fender, who makes amazing guitars in the $500-750 range. They also don't come with any particular image associated with them. Strats have been used for all sorts of music, from Iron Maiden to John Mayer. Gibson feels a bit more stuck to an image, but it doesn't feel old and crusty the way Harley does.

wambotron 8y ago

I bought my first bike here earlier this year aged 35. I took the MSF course at a Harley dealer and talked a bit about what bike might fit me best for riding as a casual/weekend rider (up to maybe 5k miles per year if I ride a lot). No one really recommended a Harley. I got a couple Indian recs, but mostly it was Yamaha and Honda. I ended up with a 2017 Honda Shadow Phantom after sitting on it for a while in the show room of the Honda dealer and I'm quite happy with it. Harley absolutely feels like a fashion thing to me. I know a few folks who really like them, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything other than "they're Harleys, man." I don't think the Harley brand is going to die off, but it does feel a bit pigeonholed right now as the rough and tumble, leather & dome helmets type of rider right now. Honda doesn't feel like any particular type of bike. I don't feel like I should be wearing anything in particular on it, and I haven't had anyone look at me oddly for riding a matte black cruiser with a high-vis helmet yet. I feel like I would've if I were on a Harley.

eweise 8y ago

I rode 10,000 miles all over the US one summer on a harley 883 sportster. Loved it and the bike ran great. I actually like the lack of technology on the bikes because they are easy to fix.