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Yeah, having dealt with Chinese vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. I've met contractors who did extensive work for businessmen in the US, who

Yeah, having dealt with Chinese vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. I've met contractors who did extensive work for businessmen in the US, who then turned around and told the contractor, "You want to be paid? Sue me!" The whole culture of trust / fairness / honesty is very different from the west. Is it really that different? There are some people who are good and some people who end up being opportunistic in evil ways. The more I learn about differences across cultures, the more I conclude that the differences are always ones of degree, and the differences are made more visible due to the cultural contrasts. That said, is there more rule of law and enforcement around IP issues in the west than in China? I suspect that's also true. Dealt with our products being knocked off for years, wouldn’t want to buy cancer meds ever! There are also people in the west who aren't above faking treatments for cancer.

eastendguy 8y ago
> There are also people in the west who aren't above faking treatments for cancer. So true, here you go: https://www.dw.com/en/cancer-drug-scandal-german-pharmacist-goes-on-trial/a-41358673 https://www.dw.com/en/cancer-drug-scandal-german-pharmacist-... The free press and independent justice system makes the difference.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  The free press and independent justice system makes the difference. Those can and do make a difference. No system is perfect, however. Chinese culture has an extensive heritage of moral philosophy. Despite that, it's still been shown that it's possible to overturn the social order there with massive consequences. The west certainly isn't above that sort of chaos. France and Germany, the largest economic powers of continental Europe, have that in their history. The US isn't entirely above this kind of chaos, either. The press in the west also follows a propaganda model. https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542058513&sr=8-1&keywords=manufacturing+consent https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Econo... Justice systems in the west have been known to cooperate with the authorities in miscarriages of justice, particularly in wartime or when subject to near-wartime hysteria. When it comes down to it, there is always a struggle between good and evil in all times and places. The really tricky part of it is this: The worst evils disguise themselves as movements of good and justice. People and movements should be judged by their actions. Ask: Who is committing violence against whom? Who abets or tacitly accepts bad actions? Who is willing to call out their own side and their own tribe when they do wrong? The left/right political spectrum ceases to have meaning when you look at it that way. The Authoritarian/Anti-authoritarian spectrum and the tribalist/universalist spectrums hold much more value.
justicezyx 8y ago
Being Chinese myself, I can say the moral standard of normal Chinese are more bipolar than western world. Some are incredibly kind and fair. Some are incredibly immoral, who can be viewed as demon incarnations. See example like this: https://www.zhihu.com/question/53610601 https://www.zhihu.com/question/53610601 (manufacture human monster slave to use as worker as fake beggar)
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Some are incredibly kind and fair. Some are incredibly immoral, who can be viewed as demon incarnations. You can find comparable extremes in all places.
  - justicezyx 8y ago
    Sure, as I mention, it's more. The example I cite here is well-knwon, and yet it exists still today. Can you imagine western countries allow this to happen regularly?
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      As time goes on, people adjust to the rule of law and societal standards. What happens in the west is that the "optics" are far better. Much of the corruption remains, however. Unfortunately, I think that's baked into reality and human nature.
      - justicezyx 8y ago
        No objections. Just to point out the status-quo.
- powerapple 8y ago
  people are different because of their circumstances. Not because of their skin color.
  - justicezyx 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Imagine if google was in the business of faking cancer treatments with Army hospitals. That would basically be Baidu and the PLA.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Google is not that corrupt yet, thank goodness. However, to respond to the idea in the other comment: That Chinese people, Chinese society, or Chinese culture is somehow the root cause, I think we should be calling out Baidu and the PLA in particular.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Oh, I totally believe those things would happen in the states if we didn’t have much better rule of law than China. It’s a corrupt government, but culture that it is the problem.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      “But not culture that is the problem”
imjustsaying 8y ago
>Is it really that different? There are some people who are good and some people who end up being opportunistic in evil ways. The more I learn about differences across cultures, the more I conclude that the differences are always ones of degree, and the differences are made more visible due to the cultural contrasts. Exactly. When you have a culture that more often accepts scams as necessary to succeed and another culture that shuns them, you will probably see disparities in the percentages of people in those cultures who are willing to scam. Ostracism is a powerful deterrent.

eastendguy 8y ago

> There are also people in the west who aren't above faking treatments for cancer. So true, here you go: https://www.dw.com/en/cancer-drug-scandal-german-pharmacist-goes-on-trial/a-41358673 https://www.dw.com/en/cancer-drug-scandal-german-pharmacist-... The free press and independent justice system makes the difference.

stcredzero 8y ago
The free press and independent justice system makes the difference. Those can and do make a difference. No system is perfect, however. Chinese culture has an extensive heritage of moral philosophy. Despite that, it's still been shown that it's possible to overturn the social order there with massive consequences. The west certainly isn't above that sort of chaos. France and Germany, the largest economic powers of continental Europe, have that in their history. The US isn't entirely above this kind of chaos, either. The press in the west also follows a propaganda model. https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542058513&sr=8-1&keywords=manufacturing+consent https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Econo... Justice systems in the west have been known to cooperate with the authorities in miscarriages of justice, particularly in wartime or when subject to near-wartime hysteria. When it comes down to it, there is always a struggle between good and evil in all times and places. The really tricky part of it is this: The worst evils disguise themselves as movements of good and justice. People and movements should be judged by their actions. Ask: Who is committing violence against whom? Who abets or tacitly accepts bad actions? Who is willing to call out their own side and their own tribe when they do wrong? The left/right political spectrum ceases to have meaning when you look at it that way. The Authoritarian/Anti-authoritarian spectrum and the tribalist/universalist spectrums hold much more value.

justicezyx 8y ago

Being Chinese myself, I can say the moral standard of normal Chinese are more bipolar than western world. Some are incredibly kind and fair. Some are incredibly immoral, who can be viewed as demon incarnations. See example like this: https://www.zhihu.com/question/53610601 https://www.zhihu.com/question/53610601 (manufacture human monster slave to use as worker as fake beggar)

stcredzero 8y ago
Some are incredibly kind and fair. Some are incredibly immoral, who can be viewed as demon incarnations. You can find comparable extremes in all places.
- justicezyx 8y ago
  Sure, as I mention, it's more. The example I cite here is well-knwon, and yet it exists still today. Can you imagine western countries allow this to happen regularly?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    As time goes on, people adjust to the rule of law and societal standards. What happens in the west is that the "optics" are far better. Much of the corruption remains, however. Unfortunately, I think that's baked into reality and human nature.
    - justicezyx 8y ago
      No objections. Just to point out the status-quo.
powerapple 8y ago
people are different because of their circumstances. Not because of their skin color.
- justicezyx 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

Imagine if google was in the business of faking cancer treatments with Army hospitals. That would basically be Baidu and the PLA.

stcredzero 8y ago
Google is not that corrupt yet, thank goodness. However, to respond to the idea in the other comment: That Chinese people, Chinese society, or Chinese culture is somehow the root cause, I think we should be calling out Baidu and the PLA in particular.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Oh, I totally believe those things would happen in the states if we didn’t have much better rule of law than China. It’s a corrupt government, but culture that it is the problem.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    “But not culture that is the problem”

imjustsaying 8y ago

>Is it really that different? There are some people who are good and some people who end up being opportunistic in evil ways. The more I learn about differences across cultures, the more I conclude that the differences are always ones of degree, and the differences are made more visible due to the cultural contrasts. Exactly. When you have a culture that more often accepts scams as necessary to succeed and another culture that shuns them, you will probably see disparities in the percentages of people in those cultures who are willing to scam. Ostracism is a powerful deterrent.