13 ms·

Sick Building Syndrome

116 points by wensley 8y ago

Dumblydorr 8y ago
Can anyone recommend a method to be happy in a depressing office for 40 hours? I am an outdoorsy active person and it is very hard to code in the coldly manufactured cubicle that I must stay in. Window view is very minimal, walls are drab, workplace has no fun activities whatsoever, coworkers are quiet at least, but not welcoming or fun. I just feel spending so much time in that confined space really hurts my coding and mental game.
- moltar 8y ago
  Follow the 4 hour work week method and escape the office? :D
- lvturner 8y ago
  Sadly, the only way I’ve found to mitigate this, is to leave the company. Complain about it first though - maybe they will spot the correlation eventually.
- dqv 8y ago
  It's really nice to have an easy to maintain plant like a snake plant to talk to. It can really change your mood in an otherwise uncomfortable place.
  - black-tea 8y ago
    You talk to a plant at work?
    - imdsm 8y ago
      Hey, that guy is talking to a plant - what a weirdo. Anyway, rubber duck, as I was saying...
      - HenryBemis 8y ago
        You should have seen my wife when I took my baby's rubber duck (one of the many) and started talking to it. I had to show her the wiki page [1] to convince her I am not (completely) crazy. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
    - jimnotgym 8y ago
      Plant, fidget spinner, stress balls, Lego, abacus etc. Bouncing a foam ball off my keyboard (not the keys, the hard bit at the top) onto my monitor. That is much worse for my workmates than a one-way floral chat.
    - DonHopkins 8y ago
      When Sun Microsystems fell apart into SunSoft, SunLabs, etc, Scott McNealy called an all-hands meeting and gave everyone a pep-talk, and said there would be some big changes, so nobody should be hugging their tree. He repeated that several times, making tree hugging gestures to emphasize what we were not supposed to do: No Tree Hugging!!! So I went to my manager and complained that I never got a tree. I promised not to hug it, but I insisted that I wanted my own tree, too.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I am in the same situation. I think the only way is to change companies or even change career.
- black-tea 8y ago
  It sounds like you are in the wrong profession.
  - ilikehurdles 8y ago
    It sounds like he is in the wrong office (for him). Not all offices are like this.
    - black-tea 8y ago
      The productive ones are. He's complaining that it's inside and that people work quietly.
      - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
        He's not complaining that it's inside, he's complaining that it feels cold and impersonal and there's not enough windows. Better furnishing and more natural light can make a real difference.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        Nonsense. He is complaining that everything is drab and no window view. I work under similar circumstances and I feel more and more that these two things are slowly eating me up. this has nothing to do with productivity.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Get a remote job?
- chapium 8y ago
  See if you can work remote 1 day a week. Some employers are inflexible about this, but if your work can be done remotely, you might see huge gains from switching up your environment now and then. When you come back to the office you will be refreshed and able to focus on tasks like meetings, social calls, etc that are well suited for cube farms. I always find "office activities" incredibly awful. Nothing like having an icecream social when everyone still steaming from work they should be focusing on. However, you could try starting an office pool for bagels, cookie of the month club, or whatever. It might be a nice diversion that improves your morale and takes little time away from work.
- jib 8y ago
  The easy answer is change jobs. You don’t have to stay anywhere, and you presumably have one of the easiest skills to find work with today. If you actually want mechanisms for being happy no matter what, start realising that none of the stuff you’re stating as issues actually matters, and you can work on accepting that. What does the walls have to do with your happiness? You control if you’re happy or not. Stoicism-like ideas and reading can help (or at least do for me, minus the religious bits) with realising that external factors do not matter for your happiness. Happiness is 100% controlled by your mind. There are unhappy people who have all the things you say you lack and way more, and there are happy people who have none of them, and are in situations that are objectively way worse than yours, so the state of material things is not the defining factor for your happiness. The defining factor is you and how you choose to react to external things.
- drdebug 8y ago
  I have found that adding white, sun-like light, using LED bars for example can help. One can't easily simulate sun light but I found adding several light sources, at least 4 can make a difference. In my experience, working in bursts with "strong" breaks help, for example grabbing a cup of coffee and spending 10min outside every 1.5h.
- itronitron 8y ago
  I'd put up a photo montage around your desk of outdoorsy things, and bring in a small floor mat tiled with pebbles then take your shoes off while you work and just rest your feet on the pebbles. That might produce enough sensory stimulation to keep you from going crazy.
- amelius 8y ago
  VR goggles? You can set it up so that it seems your desktop is on a sunny beach, or a mountain peak, a train, ...
- abledon 8y ago
  change your job to something different. if in a year or so you don't like it. change again. Change into a job where its social.
- Zenst 8y ago
  Plants, lots of plants. Cactus also good, least back in the CRT days as they helped absorb emissions. This and headphones with your music. Also and above all, do take regular breaks and plenty of virtual cigarettes (as in going thru the process but not smoking - as in just get out of the office for a few minutes).
  - mikro2nd 8y ago
    Came to say just this. Also, add a desk-lamp with a solar-immitating/"daylight" spectrum. (In the bad old days of incandescent bulbs that was one of the blue "daylight" bulbls. I don't know what the LED equivalent would be.)
    - jimnotgym 8y ago
      Have a look at the Phillips range at any popular electronics store. You can have any colour you like (except black)
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
    Back in the day I developed a Palm app for taking virtual smoking breaks: https://i.imgur.com/7FlQ6Bj.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7FlQ6Bj.jpg
  - EForEndeavour 8y ago
    > Cactus also good, least back in the CRT days as they helped absorb emissions. I've never heard of this; could you elaborate? What health-relevant emissions do CRTs give out, and how would having a cactus in the vicinity of the CRT help?
    - Zenst 8y ago
      https://emfacademy.com/5-indoor-plants-that-absorb-radiation/ https://emfacademy.com/5-indoor-plants-that-absorb-radiation...
      - EForEndeavour 8y ago
- bluthru 8y ago
  Make sure you step outside for lunch everyday, even if you pack your own lunch.
- shodan666 8y ago
  Why do you care what is around you? You are supposed to WORK at your workplace. And as programmer all you need to do is look at the screen. Job is NOT suppose to be fun. Solution: just focus on your job and your time fill fly very very fast. THEN you can carry on with fun activities. Listing to music doesn't hurt tho.
- scarecrowbob 8y ago
  I know it's a crappy answer, but "change jobs". Making a dysfunctional situation work is way more difficult than just finding a different situation. The good thing is that compared to folks who are plumbers or truck drivers or cooks, it's much easier to do that for folks working on code. It is wholly anecdotal, but the biggest quality of life improvement I've ever had was finding a full-time, 100% remote job that had good boundaries on how much work was expected. At this point, I've negotiated the workload to 30 hours a week and I can sit in an environment that I've setup with only my personal needs in mind. The pay and benefits are not as good as they would be for the same job with a larger company, but the work is still fun and interesting and expectations on quality are very high. I had to join a climbing gym because I want to find folks to socialize with, but that's had a lot of other good benefits.
- DoubleCribble 8y ago
  Anecdotal quick fix: Adding a sit/stand desk[0] and regularly switching posture throughout the day has personally resulted in significant improvements both mentally and physically. [0]https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=122&cp_id=12240&cs_id=1224001&p_id=33384&seq=1&format=2 https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=122&cp_id=12240&cs_id...
- Forge36 8y ago
  Ask for laptop, work next to Windows. Ask for work at home days, remote in. No luck? Design on paper first, write out your ideas. Spend time in sun outside writing. Wear graphics like headphones, listen to music, get a "sunlight" lamp. Bring a space heater, wear heavier shirts/sweaters. You might need to be the fun person. Invite the team on a hike, plan a picnic. Set a timer, 8 hours in? Just leave I don't want to suggest "change jobs". However: if you can't find a way to make your work better. Set an end date and go for three drastic change. If you can, move to a new city. Downsize your current living situation.
  - Forge36 8y ago
    Someone else suggested stoicism. Try meditating, take walking breaks (helps warm you up). Take a week cut all caffeine.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      You have to careful with stoicism. If you have nothing that feeds your soul then stoicism can also deplete your psychological reserves. There are plenty of stories of high ranking Buddhist teachers who had a breakdown after many years because they just pretended to be OK with their circumstances but deep down weren't. I used to work from home but the last 6 years I have worked in an office with brown cubes, no windows, tons of useless meetings, noise and I more and more realize that this is starting to eat me up from the inside. I think I am pretty good at dealing with adversity, I live healthily, I exercise, I meditate, but this is slowly killing my spirit and my motivation. I don't think changing my attitude would help.
  - HenryBemis 8y ago
    +1 on change jobs/employer/go remote. If this is not feasible it could be that you 'just' need to change the room/floor/corner of the building. Perhaps move closer to a window. Something facing West will give you natural light after 11am, or East for the early walk-ins. I remember I was working in one of them new skyscrappers in London a few months ago. We were given a meeting room so the whole team can stick together for a massive project. The room's name was "engine room". EVERYONE was sick all the time. The room was cold, with minimal light, and we were pulling 12 hours shifts in there. The £ was great, but we all almost got pneumonia. When that project was finished and we were "free" to wander on other floors (or work remotely), I found a desk right next to the windows and haven't coughed since.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  If talk to boss, then change jobs if there's no remedy, is not an option: Maybe try getting better quality lights in your cubicle, and adding a few medium sized potted plants. I put some high CRI LED lights and some ferns and such in my nook at one of my workplaces, and it made a pretty big difference in my mood. The lights I've gotten from YujiLEDs[0] tend to work well, and measure well for this purpose, but they're pricier than commodity LEDs. [0]: https://store.yujiintl.com/ https://store.yujiintl.com/
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  > coworkers are quiet at least, but not welcoming or fun At my current job, I'm making an effort to invite my coworkers to lunch once or twice a week. Chances are they feel just as unwelcomed as you do. It only takes one person to break the ice, and it makes a difference.
- redcalx 8y ago
  Maybe a longish walk at lunchtime? Depends on where the office is of course.
  - HenryBemis 8y ago
    I remember in HP/Compaq offices in Houston when we wanted to take a break, we were going for a walk; anyone who has been in those HQ knows what I mean. A 45mins (slow) walk around the entire thing, and you could see anything from boring offices to assembly lines from that promenade!
- maxander 8y ago
  I hope someone with authority over their company's office leasing/layout planning see's this and the various replies- th overwhelming sentiment is approximately "engineers hate dreary corporate office design to the point where they'll quit over it." Set up an office in a nice building with high-quality architecture[1] and you'll be able to retain a much higher degree of engineer, per-dollar. Maybe the tradeoff doesn't work in SF's insane property market, but anywhere else it seems like a no-brainer. [1] Which for some reason almost always means buildings that are more than half a century old- our culture has gone big into the dreary corporate office building thing.
- Angostura 8y ago
  Buy yourself a nice plant
- z3t4 8y ago
  As the rock-star programmer I am, I like to dance while I code. Jokes asides, it does get more blood to your brain and work becomes more fun. If coworkers find it annoying, just ask for your own office. But be careful if you have a funny manager or you might get an elevated glass cubicle.
- FooHentai 8y ago
  Daylight lamps make a big difference to my mood. Placing on of those on the side of your desk may help with mood and making the working space feel less cooped up. Plants are also a great idea. If you have a fixed desk location you can get pretty elaborate with fairly high-maintenance potted plants (since you're next to them all the time). Scheduling exercise during your lunch break, if possible, should also help.
- lvs 8y ago
  An actual recommendation I got from a boss once: act dumber. If you look around, it actually works!
- lancefisher 8y ago
  From my experience, move to Missoula. Go running through the woods at lunch and work from home on occasion. It’s really a great place to live and work.
beerlord 8y ago
I'd highly recommend buying a CO2/PM2.5 measurer and seeing what the levels are in your house or workplace. CO2 over 1,000 PPM has been linked to reduced cognitive performance. As an aside they function as excellent temperate and humidity readers for general use.
- gruez 8y ago
  do you have one that you'd recommend?
  - elektor 8y ago
    I use the Plume Flow to measure PM2.5.(1) Then I turn on my Coway AP-1512HH Mighty Air Purifier to clear the air up. (1)https://flow.plumelabs.com/ https://flow.plumelabs.com/
    - ThrowMeDown01 8y ago
      > I use the Plume Flow Uhm.. how? "Shipping November 2018" and the order button is labeled "Pre-Order". I'm a bit amazed - and disappointed - by how little information there is on that product page. The "tech specs" are size and weight and that's it, for this kind of product? Pretty much everything is missing that I would expect to know for this kind of product specifically. I even played the clip, still not a single piece of actually relevant information. The only sentence that says anything regarding the intended use is > Flow measures real-time concentrations of NO2, VOC, PM2.5 and PM10: everything you need to understand your exposure and build healthy routines. Given that they seem to target the "average person" they should probably explain somewhere what those abbreviations mean (I do, but what "average person" knows what VOC is?). No way I would order given the lack of information, given that the price is $139 (or Euros). After a quick search for similar products I found this comparison of several products (2016): http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-indoor-air-quality-monitors-are-best-and-why/ http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-indoor-a...
      - elektor 8y ago
itronitron 8y ago
It would be interesting to see a comparison of office spaces broken down by age and type of HVAC ducting (or other types of heating in general such as radiators).
- specialist 8y ago
  Central HVAC is like carpeting: a disease reservoir and vector. FWIW, my house had central heating, forced air. I had the ducts regularly serviced, vacuumed. I recently ripped out all the ductwork. The inside was still nasty. No wonder my allergies had never really improved. (Much better now with electric heaters.) I try to not think about HVAC in offices. Newer is better, I suppose. Less time to absorb scuz.
  - itronitron 8y ago
    Yeah, it's too bad that in so many homes the ductwork is inaccessible for cleaning.
baybal2 8y ago
Up until around year 2000, very few buildings in Russia were built with artificial ventilation, and that with non-stop indoor smoking. Any "big box" building was survivable to me. Back then, it was thought as something normal, to the point that people regarded not having stuffy air and +26~ indoors as "cold and inhospitable." This is one of reasons I don't like the country. I think, even today, when Russian people who never been abroad, come to America, the first thing they notice is how good is the ventilation indoors.
- baybal2 8y ago
  Typo *unsurvivable
moneytide1 8y ago
Reduced body movement, "conditioned" air, relatively stagnant airflow (even when turned by metal fans, not the quality air that has most recently blown through vegetation)
mitchtbaum 8y ago
Literature Review – Microbial Growth in Buildings http://paradigmchange.me/building-literature/ http://paradigmchange.me/building-literature/ Health Effects of Moldy Buildings – Sick Building Syndrome http://paradigmchange.me/buildings-sbs/ http://paradigmchange.me/buildings-sbs/ Health Effects of Moldy Buildings http://paradigmchange.me/buildings/ http://paradigmchange.me/buildings/
- rebuilder 8y ago
  Yes, the lack of any mention of mold as a possible cause stuck out to me. Especially as this is a UK organization - they have rugs in bathrooms, for crying out loud! Edit: And by 'rugs' I mean 'carpets', of course. The idea apparently baffles me so, I can't even find words.
  - imdsm 8y ago
    Years ago when I rented, many apartments had carpets in the bathrooms. I hated it. I have a nice tiled cottage floor now, non-porous stone. I don't understand why people carpet bathrooms, and not all British people do this.
    - DonHopkins 8y ago
      It's the Burberry bath mat sets that get me. Silly chavs! ;) https://itdayshop.com/collections/bath-mat-set/products/burberry-logo-floor-carpet-toilet-rug-lid-cover-3-piece-bath-mat-set https://itdayshop.com/collections/bath-mat-set/products/burb...
    - ip26 8y ago
      People don't like walking on cold floors in winter, so carpets get tried in all kinds of places they don't belong.
    - uberduber 8y ago
      If you go to retirement communities in the US you will notice way more carpeted bathrooms. They fall and it is much better to fall on carpet than a hard surface.
ratsimihah 8y ago
"Hi boss, I can't show up today, I have sick building syndrome. Actually, I won't be able to show up ever again."
fubarito 8y ago
been there. landed a great job, loved the coding tasks, had great colleagues. the office was an open-plan one. seemed cold rightaway for me. sitting under a ventilation shaft, the cool air flowing was not pleasant but still liveable. cold all day long but also sweating at the same time as the office didnt seem to have oxygen. gasping out of a small kitchen window for air - one of few openable ones :) did some air vents hacking. 4 months i start to feel weird. cold empassing my bladder, lower stomach. total allergy to any airflow. took a -20 degree celsius sleeping bag to work. spending my days wrapped in it. didnt help. switching office desks to see if there's a chair i can sit at. the 40+ people in the open plan obviously see theres a nutcase in the building. my direct bosses are compassionate though. they see im not kidding. under-table-portable heating is suggested. geopathogenic zones are suggested existing in place. i go see doctors. im in pain, my bladder us killing me, doctors/urologists say everything is fine with me. i cant drive the subway because theres draught. i google sick building syndrome. us this really hapenning ? i quit. they let me go rightaway (thx) im fine in two weeks. havent experienced that since (6-7 years?) but been working in non-airconditioned buildings since then. fearing the moment a next job has similar fucked up problems. ill say bye bye right away, wont be waiting for months!!!
- Jarwain 8y ago
  The only thing I can think of is mold-related, but at low enough concentration that it doesn't affect most people? Sounds like a spooky experience though
  - fubarito 8y ago
    yeah, who knows. im not a fan of air conditioning. never been. maybe my mind just decided "youre not gonna spend your time here boy, open plan offices are nonsense" and it was all psychosomatic. funny is the three months contract i had right before this experience was in winter and i had the pleasure to sit right next to a window having it open almost all the time facing my back, letting in precious oxygen. paradise ! so it was not cold air per-se. to hell with open-plan & air conditioning!
- pharrington 8y ago
honksillet 8y ago
I had terribly allergic rhinitis throughout my youth, but only at my family's home. When, after I moved out, my parents pulled out the carpet in my old bedroom, my allergies at that house vanished.
- redcalx 8y ago
  For me removal of carpets is the #1 thing to do if you have allergic rhinitis, especially if there are pets.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  Carpets are awful breeding grounds. I use low-cost area rugs which get shaken outside regularly or simply replaced. I've nailed a few heavy-duty spring-loaded clamps to an elevated wood deck joist where I hang them for shaking and a day in the sun every couple weeks. Don't even have a vacuum cleaner anymore, it's a huge improvement in quality of life.
noobermin 8y ago
I'm surprised they didn't mention allergies. Dust mites and mold can cause many of these symptoms in people (this is what I deal with in my own apartment).
shocks 8y ago
Five Ways Tower[1] in Birmingham, UK has been closed for years because of this. > The building is vacant due to the last tenants evacuating the building due to ill health amongst the workforce. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_Tower
userbinator 8y ago
I suspect a lot of it is caused by an emphasis on energy efficiency, which means tightly sealed rooms and HVAC that's set to recirculate the majority of air rather than bring in fresh air from outside. I've noticed that a lot of older buildings tend to have more fresh-air ventilation than newer ones for this reason.
- pkaye 8y ago
  I think now they are starting to use air exchangers to bring in outside air while not losing as much heat/cold.
- ip26 8y ago
  It's energy efficiency, but also old buildings. They weren't designed with insulation & sealing in mind, and as a result can actually depend on leaking lots of heat to control condensation, mold & mildew. Seal them up and suddenly... Newer buildings are designed with tightly sealed rooms & thick insulation in mind, and thus don't generally have big condensation problems.
- alexis_fr 8y ago
  Worked in 7 of them, million dollars of brand new buildings... Energy efficent buildings are efficient because they’re not as mild as they should be, always too cold in winter, always above 25° in summer (in actual on-the-desk thermometer measurement), lights switch off at set times when you still work and no proper way to override anything « because consumption would get out of the target ». Those building are built for the norms, not for the human inside. In fact they make you well notice that the human is the intruder. And they’re here for the next 30-70 years.
  - saeranv 8y ago
    Yes. We run energy/thermal comfort simulations to figure out where it's reasonable to to impose thermal discomfort on our inhabitants. If our energy models tell us that there's one extreme week that will be really hot, but we can reduce the HVAC sizing (for cost and energy efficiency), I think it's prudent to do so. I always argue on the side of reducing energy whenever possible. That's a couple of days over the course of the year though, we're not imposing discomfort every day! The industry has also been shifting towards different thermal comfort models (PMV or Predicted Mean Vote to ATC Adaptive Thermal Comfort) which takes into account inhabitants changing their clothing (i.e removing sweater), using personal fans, opening windows to modify their environment for comfort. FYI, I work in an office that actively uses all these strategies, and personally I don't mind it. Even if it's initially uncomfortable, human beings usually adapt to different thermal stresses in about two weeks of exposure. And yes, it does require some social/cultural shifts (in N. America especially) if you're expected to be a more active participant in making yourself feel thermally comfortable. ETA: Clarifying thermal comfort strategies.
cowpewter 8y ago
I worked in a building like this. Over the year I worked in that office, my asthma got gradually worse and worse. I went from using my rescue inhaler maybe once every couple months (for minor cough/discomfort), to using it multiple times per day just to breathe. Inhaled steroids (Advair Diskus) were added to my asthma prescriptions. Eventually I could barely get through the day without prolonged fits of coughing and multiple asthma attacks. Went to the doctor again, got diagnosed with bronchitis, sent home with prescription cough medicine and even more steroids (prednisone) and was told not to work for at least a week. Got better. Started coughing again within 30 minutes of entering the building when I went back to work. Then put together that with the fact that I always felt a little better after my lunch breaks to realize it was the building itself making me sick. We were getting ready to move to a larger office anyway, so got permission to work from home when necessary until the move. We moved offices, my coughing stopped. I discontinued all the steroids and now am back to using my rescue inhaler almost never. I can't imagine the building had no effect on anyone else, but I definitely got the worst of it. No one else got sick the way I did. The building itself was a historic building, a Firestone car repair place that had been retro-fitted to be an office. It was built in 1927, and then sat empty since the 1950s, until it was renovated in 2014.
- Pica_soO 8y ago
  There are lots of buildings, with a dark history. Glue used for the carpet that constantly exhales solvents- its especially horrible if your building was a industrial site before. Those brick buildings near trainstations, that where formerly train maintenance sheds are particularly horrible, as the oil in most trains was highly carcinogenic and seeped right into the brick during maintenance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_oil#Polychlorinated_biphenyls_(PCBs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_oil#Polychlorinate... Always read up on the history of the building you are working in. Also, always google industrial scandals in the local news-paper- usually they just rebuild right over spill sites- and the stuff smells up after rain.
- itronitron 8y ago
  In addition to mold, mildew, and pollen, a lot of people are allergic to various types of critters and their droppings. I don't want to think about what can accumulate over 50 years in an empty building.
rabidrat 8y ago
It's so weird, I've had something like this at a co-working space I was at. Upper level smelled "musty" or something to me, and I felt half-sick every time I would spend a full day up there. Went to the lower level and was fine. When they consolidated to the upper level only, I went with, and my symptoms returned. It was so consistent that I had to leave, but I still feel weird about it...how come no one else was experiencing this? They couldn't smell the same smell and seem to be fine working there day in and day out. Am I really that hypersensitive?
z3t4 8y ago
Use scientific methods to measure air flow and quality (CO2), and humidity. You want around 50% humidity and CO2 to be below 700 ppm. CO2 doesn't directly measure air quality, only how often that air is changed. The more like outside (around 300 ppm) the better. 35% or lower humidity will effect your your skin and mucous membrane. A dried out mucous membrane makes it easier to catch a cold. And dried out skin leads to cracks and itching. But too high humidity 80% + is also bad. If the temperature between outside and inside differs more then 7 degrees C, it's enough to effect the humidity, for example if it's cold outside, the cold air expand, leading to less relative water. You can get a humidifier or dehumidifier to control humidity, and use ventilation to control air ventilation. Then there's also temperature, you want around 20-23 C to be comfortable, but I guess you already figured that one =)
- refurb 8y ago
  for example if it's cold outside, the cold air expand, leading to less relative water. Isn’t it more about the ability of warmer air to hold more water versus the expansion of colder air? Relative humidity is percentage of water (versus saturation) at that temperature. If you have 50% humidity at 50F, and heat the air to 70F, that becomes 27% relative humidity.[1] [1]https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humid...
  - z3t4 8y ago
    I think it's both.
- the_jeremy 8y ago
  I recently bought a CO2 monitor, and found that my girlfriend's apartment is regularly over 1200 ppm. Is there anything I can do about this issue? We can't just open the windows as it currently ~40F outside.
  - trobertson 8y ago
    You could get a bunch of plants. They probably won't solve the problem outright, but they are a good first step.
tokyodude 8y ago
Does anyone have any experience with air quality sensors what would easily tell me if the air in the building I'm in is bad along the lines of sick building syndrome? Ideally some sensor that's relatively inexpensive and easy to use and connects to smart phone? There's several out there for home use but I'd love to carry around something that just told me constantly and also that was more than just particle density sensor.
- Something1234 8y ago
  I saw quite a few arduino sensors so you could build your own. I've linked a couple, but I haven't bought them yet. https://www.amazon.com/KEYESTUDIO-Particle-Monitor-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07B2PFPB5/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1541976906&sr=8-3&keywords=arduino+air+sensor https://www.amazon.com/KEYESTUDIO-Particle-Monitor-Arduino-R... https://www.amazon.com/Keywish-Detector-Mega2560-Raspberry-Beginners-x/dp/B01N1UB89A/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1541976906&sr=8-7&keywords=arduino+air+sensor https://www.amazon.com/Keywish-Detector-Mega2560-Raspberry-B...
  - ungzd 8y ago
    The first one does not have filter so it will count large particles, such as regular dust, too. This does not makes it useless but this should be taken into consideration.
    - ungzd 8y ago
      Sorry, seems that similar sensors doesn't need filters and detect particle size ranges by intensity of scattered light. However, I can't find information about what sizes this sensor detects.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
Anecdotally, this can happen without it being the building per se. When I worked in a cubicle farm, cubicles were not necessarily cleaned out if someone left. I have serious health issues, including respiratory problems, and I'm very sensitive to dust, germs, etc. My immediate boss was asthmatic and yadda. There was an abandoned cubicle very near both of us that had about two linear feet of papers in it. They were covered in a visible layer of dust. I concluded this was negatively impacting my health. I knew no one would believe me or care. Everyone always acts like I have an overactive imagination. I began quietly carting the papers out. Anything still usable got redistributed and re-used. Anything in such bad shape it couldn't be mailed to customers got dumped in the recycling bins a handful at a time. It probably took me a week or two to do this in small enough amounts at a time so that no one would notice what I was doing. My asthmatic boss was on like round three of antibiotics for bronchitis that wouldn't clear up. After all the musty, dusty papers were removed, she "coincidentally" finally got better.
- alex__c 8y ago
  And sometimes it's an entire city that's the problem. My girlfriend comes from a mountainous zone. We live in the city that I was born, a dusty place in the plains. Guess what, within one year she developed respiratory problems. We are actually considering moving towns because it's literally impossible to get rid of the dust effectively, here.
tartoran 8y ago
I think carpets are the source of a lot of problems with office buildings. Carpets and problematic central air, with possible mold, bad filters, etc. In the US it is not possible to open the widows in these types of offices.
Spooky23 8y ago
My father in law was the fire chief in a city where a locally famous government building was notorious for sick building syndrome in the 90s. The building was and is a soulless cube farm with floors alternating in color from institutional green/gray/orange/blue. It was 90% psychology, usually kicked off by a smell, anything from wet hair to popcorn to paint. They were medically evacuating a dozen people a day at the peak hysteria. His solution was to park the fire truck and ambulance behind well out of site and respond in a UHaul truck. The fireman/paramedic left turnout gear behind and wore a hoodie over their uniform, and turned off radios. Once they did that, the calls went down to 1-2 a day and went away about a week after that.
sershe 8y ago
Heh, now that I got reminded of this... I had throat pain for 7-8 weeks or so after moving into an old house. It would go away when I was away from home. There's no obvious mold, dust, moisture etc. problem; so I was about to schedule a professional air test, when the throat pain stopped and never came back. Also, my wife never had any problems. What would you think that was? A temporary sick building? My only hypothesis is that I am allergic to something outside the house that is not there anymore now that it's fall. However, the plants around the house are basically the same stuff that's present everywhere around town.
- itronitron 8y ago
  Pollens tend to be very seasonal so it could be a specific type of pollen outside, or it could be due to an inadequately ventilated or insulated (and very hot) attic pushing stuff into the rest of the house during the summer months. If you have lived in the same town for over five years without any issues then it probably is not pollen. In which case if you own the house then you can have someone check the attic ventilation, and schedule the hvac system to be cleaned out or replaced. If you rent then just plan on moving within a year.
aaron695 8y ago
Do people actually believe this shit "Sick building syndrome" If so perhaps go see a good Naturopath. Sure it's psychosomatic, and this is in itself a illness. And it causes issues, see the Cuban Embassy. But on HN can't we start at the level of psychosomatic and then talk about how to deal with that. Because you can. You can design to reduce psychosomatic behaviour. Like have trees and plants around. There's a science here, why doesn't this not interest the HN community.

116 points by wensley 8y ago

Can anyone recommend a method to be happy in a depressing office for 40 hours? I am an outdoorsy active person and it is very hard to code in the coldly manufactured cubicle that I must stay in. Window view is very minimal, walls are drab, workplace has no fun activities whatsoever, coworkers are quiet at least, but not welcoming or fun. I just feel spending so much time in that confined space really hurts my coding and mental game.

moltar 8y ago
Follow the 4 hour work week method and escape the office? :D
lvturner 8y ago
Sadly, the only way I’ve found to mitigate this, is to leave the company. Complain about it first though - maybe they will spot the correlation eventually.
dqv 8y ago
It's really nice to have an easy to maintain plant like a snake plant to talk to. It can really change your mood in an otherwise uncomfortable place.
- black-tea 8y ago
  You talk to a plant at work?
  - imdsm 8y ago
    Hey, that guy is talking to a plant - what a weirdo. Anyway, rubber duck, as I was saying...
    - HenryBemis 8y ago
      You should have seen my wife when I took my baby's rubber duck (one of the many) and started talking to it. I had to show her the wiki page [1] to convince her I am not (completely) crazy. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
  - jimnotgym 8y ago
    Plant, fidget spinner, stress balls, Lego, abacus etc. Bouncing a foam ball off my keyboard (not the keys, the hard bit at the top) onto my monitor. That is much worse for my workmates than a one-way floral chat.
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
    When Sun Microsystems fell apart into SunSoft, SunLabs, etc, Scott McNealy called an all-hands meeting and gave everyone a pep-talk, and said there would be some big changes, so nobody should be hugging their tree. He repeated that several times, making tree hugging gestures to emphasize what we were not supposed to do: No Tree Hugging!!! So I went to my manager and complained that I never got a tree. I promised not to hug it, but I insisted that I wanted my own tree, too.
maxxxxx 8y ago
I am in the same situation. I think the only way is to change companies or even change career.
black-tea 8y ago
It sounds like you are in the wrong profession.
- ilikehurdles 8y ago
  It sounds like he is in the wrong office (for him). Not all offices are like this.
  - black-tea 8y ago
    The productive ones are. He's complaining that it's inside and that people work quietly.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      He's not complaining that it's inside, he's complaining that it feels cold and impersonal and there's not enough windows. Better furnishing and more natural light can make a real difference.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      Nonsense. He is complaining that everything is drab and no window view. I work under similar circumstances and I feel more and more that these two things are slowly eating me up. this has nothing to do with productivity.
nerdponx 8y ago
Get a remote job?
chapium 8y ago
See if you can work remote 1 day a week. Some employers are inflexible about this, but if your work can be done remotely, you might see huge gains from switching up your environment now and then. When you come back to the office you will be refreshed and able to focus on tasks like meetings, social calls, etc that are well suited for cube farms. I always find "office activities" incredibly awful. Nothing like having an icecream social when everyone still steaming from work they should be focusing on. However, you could try starting an office pool for bagels, cookie of the month club, or whatever. It might be a nice diversion that improves your morale and takes little time away from work.
jib 8y ago
The easy answer is change jobs. You don’t have to stay anywhere, and you presumably have one of the easiest skills to find work with today. If you actually want mechanisms for being happy no matter what, start realising that none of the stuff you’re stating as issues actually matters, and you can work on accepting that. What does the walls have to do with your happiness? You control if you’re happy or not. Stoicism-like ideas and reading can help (or at least do for me, minus the religious bits) with realising that external factors do not matter for your happiness. Happiness is 100% controlled by your mind. There are unhappy people who have all the things you say you lack and way more, and there are happy people who have none of them, and are in situations that are objectively way worse than yours, so the state of material things is not the defining factor for your happiness. The defining factor is you and how you choose to react to external things.
drdebug 8y ago
I have found that adding white, sun-like light, using LED bars for example can help. One can't easily simulate sun light but I found adding several light sources, at least 4 can make a difference. In my experience, working in bursts with "strong" breaks help, for example grabbing a cup of coffee and spending 10min outside every 1.5h.
itronitron 8y ago
I'd put up a photo montage around your desk of outdoorsy things, and bring in a small floor mat tiled with pebbles then take your shoes off while you work and just rest your feet on the pebbles. That might produce enough sensory stimulation to keep you from going crazy.
amelius 8y ago
VR goggles? You can set it up so that it seems your desktop is on a sunny beach, or a mountain peak, a train, ...
abledon 8y ago
change your job to something different. if in a year or so you don't like it. change again. Change into a job where its social.
Zenst 8y ago
Plants, lots of plants. Cactus also good, least back in the CRT days as they helped absorb emissions. This and headphones with your music. Also and above all, do take regular breaks and plenty of virtual cigarettes (as in going thru the process but not smoking - as in just get out of the office for a few minutes).
- mikro2nd 8y ago
  Came to say just this. Also, add a desk-lamp with a solar-immitating/"daylight" spectrum. (In the bad old days of incandescent bulbs that was one of the blue "daylight" bulbls. I don't know what the LED equivalent would be.)
  - jimnotgym 8y ago
    Have a look at the Phillips range at any popular electronics store. You can have any colour you like (except black)
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  Back in the day I developed a Palm app for taking virtual smoking breaks: https://i.imgur.com/7FlQ6Bj.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7FlQ6Bj.jpg
- EForEndeavour 8y ago
  > Cactus also good, least back in the CRT days as they helped absorb emissions. I've never heard of this; could you elaborate? What health-relevant emissions do CRTs give out, and how would having a cactus in the vicinity of the CRT help?
  - Zenst 8y ago
    https://emfacademy.com/5-indoor-plants-that-absorb-radiation/ https://emfacademy.com/5-indoor-plants-that-absorb-radiation...
    - EForEndeavour 8y ago
bluthru 8y ago
Make sure you step outside for lunch everyday, even if you pack your own lunch.
shodan666 8y ago
Why do you care what is around you? You are supposed to WORK at your workplace. And as programmer all you need to do is look at the screen. Job is NOT suppose to be fun. Solution: just focus on your job and your time fill fly very very fast. THEN you can carry on with fun activities. Listing to music doesn't hurt tho.
scarecrowbob 8y ago
I know it's a crappy answer, but "change jobs". Making a dysfunctional situation work is way more difficult than just finding a different situation. The good thing is that compared to folks who are plumbers or truck drivers or cooks, it's much easier to do that for folks working on code. It is wholly anecdotal, but the biggest quality of life improvement I've ever had was finding a full-time, 100% remote job that had good boundaries on how much work was expected. At this point, I've negotiated the workload to 30 hours a week and I can sit in an environment that I've setup with only my personal needs in mind. The pay and benefits are not as good as they would be for the same job with a larger company, but the work is still fun and interesting and expectations on quality are very high. I had to join a climbing gym because I want to find folks to socialize with, but that's had a lot of other good benefits.
DoubleCribble 8y ago
Anecdotal quick fix: Adding a sit/stand desk[0] and regularly switching posture throughout the day has personally resulted in significant improvements both mentally and physically. [0]https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=122&cp_id=12240&cs_id=1224001&p_id=33384&seq=1&format=2 https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=122&cp_id=12240&cs_id...
Forge36 8y ago
Ask for laptop, work next to Windows. Ask for work at home days, remote in. No luck? Design on paper first, write out your ideas. Spend time in sun outside writing. Wear graphics like headphones, listen to music, get a "sunlight" lamp. Bring a space heater, wear heavier shirts/sweaters. You might need to be the fun person. Invite the team on a hike, plan a picnic. Set a timer, 8 hours in? Just leave I don't want to suggest "change jobs". However: if you can't find a way to make your work better. Set an end date and go for three drastic change. If you can, move to a new city. Downsize your current living situation.
- Forge36 8y ago
  Someone else suggested stoicism. Try meditating, take walking breaks (helps warm you up). Take a week cut all caffeine.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    You have to careful with stoicism. If you have nothing that feeds your soul then stoicism can also deplete your psychological reserves. There are plenty of stories of high ranking Buddhist teachers who had a breakdown after many years because they just pretended to be OK with their circumstances but deep down weren't. I used to work from home but the last 6 years I have worked in an office with brown cubes, no windows, tons of useless meetings, noise and I more and more realize that this is starting to eat me up from the inside. I think I am pretty good at dealing with adversity, I live healthily, I exercise, I meditate, but this is slowly killing my spirit and my motivation. I don't think changing my attitude would help.
- HenryBemis 8y ago
  +1 on change jobs/employer/go remote. If this is not feasible it could be that you 'just' need to change the room/floor/corner of the building. Perhaps move closer to a window. Something facing West will give you natural light after 11am, or East for the early walk-ins. I remember I was working in one of them new skyscrappers in London a few months ago. We were given a meeting room so the whole team can stick together for a massive project. The room's name was "engine room". EVERYONE was sick all the time. The room was cold, with minimal light, and we were pulling 12 hours shifts in there. The £ was great, but we all almost got pneumonia. When that project was finished and we were "free" to wander on other floors (or work remotely), I found a desk right next to the windows and haven't coughed since.
microcolonel 8y ago
If talk to boss, then change jobs if there's no remedy, is not an option: Maybe try getting better quality lights in your cubicle, and adding a few medium sized potted plants. I put some high CRI LED lights and some ferns and such in my nook at one of my workplaces, and it made a pretty big difference in my mood. The lights I've gotten from YujiLEDs[0] tend to work well, and measure well for this purpose, but they're pricier than commodity LEDs. [0]: https://store.yujiintl.com/ https://store.yujiintl.com/
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> coworkers are quiet at least, but not welcoming or fun At my current job, I'm making an effort to invite my coworkers to lunch once or twice a week. Chances are they feel just as unwelcomed as you do. It only takes one person to break the ice, and it makes a difference.
redcalx 8y ago
Maybe a longish walk at lunchtime? Depends on where the office is of course.
- HenryBemis 8y ago
  I remember in HP/Compaq offices in Houston when we wanted to take a break, we were going for a walk; anyone who has been in those HQ knows what I mean. A 45mins (slow) walk around the entire thing, and you could see anything from boring offices to assembly lines from that promenade!
maxander 8y ago
I hope someone with authority over their company's office leasing/layout planning see's this and the various replies- th overwhelming sentiment is approximately "engineers hate dreary corporate office design to the point where they'll quit over it." Set up an office in a nice building with high-quality architecture[1] and you'll be able to retain a much higher degree of engineer, per-dollar. Maybe the tradeoff doesn't work in SF's insane property market, but anywhere else it seems like a no-brainer. [1] Which for some reason almost always means buildings that are more than half a century old- our culture has gone big into the dreary corporate office building thing.
Angostura 8y ago
Buy yourself a nice plant
z3t4 8y ago
As the rock-star programmer I am, I like to dance while I code. Jokes asides, it does get more blood to your brain and work becomes more fun. If coworkers find it annoying, just ask for your own office. But be careful if you have a funny manager or you might get an elevated glass cubicle.
FooHentai 8y ago
Daylight lamps make a big difference to my mood. Placing on of those on the side of your desk may help with mood and making the working space feel less cooped up. Plants are also a great idea. If you have a fixed desk location you can get pretty elaborate with fairly high-maintenance potted plants (since you're next to them all the time). Scheduling exercise during your lunch break, if possible, should also help.
lvs 8y ago
An actual recommendation I got from a boss once: act dumber. If you look around, it actually works!
lancefisher 8y ago
From my experience, move to Missoula. Go running through the woods at lunch and work from home on occasion. It’s really a great place to live and work.

beerlord 8y ago

I'd highly recommend buying a CO2/PM2.5 measurer and seeing what the levels are in your house or workplace. CO2 over 1,000 PPM has been linked to reduced cognitive performance. As an aside they function as excellent temperate and humidity readers for general use.

gruez 8y ago
do you have one that you'd recommend?
- elektor 8y ago
  I use the Plume Flow to measure PM2.5.(1) Then I turn on my Coway AP-1512HH Mighty Air Purifier to clear the air up. (1)https://flow.plumelabs.com/ https://flow.plumelabs.com/
  - ThrowMeDown01 8y ago
    > I use the Plume Flow Uhm.. how? "Shipping November 2018" and the order button is labeled "Pre-Order". I'm a bit amazed - and disappointed - by how little information there is on that product page. The "tech specs" are size and weight and that's it, for this kind of product? Pretty much everything is missing that I would expect to know for this kind of product specifically. I even played the clip, still not a single piece of actually relevant information. The only sentence that says anything regarding the intended use is > Flow measures real-time concentrations of NO2, VOC, PM2.5 and PM10: everything you need to understand your exposure and build healthy routines. Given that they seem to target the "average person" they should probably explain somewhere what those abbreviations mean (I do, but what "average person" knows what VOC is?). No way I would order given the lack of information, given that the price is $139 (or Euros). After a quick search for similar products I found this comparison of several products (2016): http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-indoor-air-quality-monitors-are-best-and-why/ http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-indoor-a...
    - elektor 8y ago

itronitron 8y ago

It would be interesting to see a comparison of office spaces broken down by age and type of HVAC ducting (or other types of heating in general such as radiators).

specialist 8y ago
Central HVAC is like carpeting: a disease reservoir and vector. FWIW, my house had central heating, forced air. I had the ducts regularly serviced, vacuumed. I recently ripped out all the ductwork. The inside was still nasty. No wonder my allergies had never really improved. (Much better now with electric heaters.) I try to not think about HVAC in offices. Newer is better, I suppose. Less time to absorb scuz.
- itronitron 8y ago
  Yeah, it's too bad that in so many homes the ductwork is inaccessible for cleaning.

baybal2 8y ago

Up until around year 2000, very few buildings in Russia were built with artificial ventilation, and that with non-stop indoor smoking. Any "big box" building was survivable to me. Back then, it was thought as something normal, to the point that people regarded not having stuffy air and +26~ indoors as "cold and inhospitable." This is one of reasons I don't like the country. I think, even today, when Russian people who never been abroad, come to America, the first thing they notice is how good is the ventilation indoors.

baybal2 8y ago
Typo *unsurvivable

moneytide1 8y ago

Reduced body movement, "conditioned" air, relatively stagnant airflow (even when turned by metal fans, not the quality air that has most recently blown through vegetation)

mitchtbaum 8y ago

Literature Review – Microbial Growth in Buildings http://paradigmchange.me/building-literature/ http://paradigmchange.me/building-literature/ Health Effects of Moldy Buildings – Sick Building Syndrome http://paradigmchange.me/buildings-sbs/ http://paradigmchange.me/buildings-sbs/ Health Effects of Moldy Buildings http://paradigmchange.me/buildings/ http://paradigmchange.me/buildings/

rebuilder 8y ago
Yes, the lack of any mention of mold as a possible cause stuck out to me. Especially as this is a UK organization - they have rugs in bathrooms, for crying out loud! Edit: And by 'rugs' I mean 'carpets', of course. The idea apparently baffles me so, I can't even find words.
- imdsm 8y ago
  Years ago when I rented, many apartments had carpets in the bathrooms. I hated it. I have a nice tiled cottage floor now, non-porous stone. I don't understand why people carpet bathrooms, and not all British people do this.
  - DonHopkins 8y ago
    It's the Burberry bath mat sets that get me. Silly chavs! ;) https://itdayshop.com/collections/bath-mat-set/products/burberry-logo-floor-carpet-toilet-rug-lid-cover-3-piece-bath-mat-set https://itdayshop.com/collections/bath-mat-set/products/burb...
  - ip26 8y ago
    People don't like walking on cold floors in winter, so carpets get tried in all kinds of places they don't belong.
  - uberduber 8y ago
    If you go to retirement communities in the US you will notice way more carpeted bathrooms. They fall and it is much better to fall on carpet than a hard surface.

ratsimihah 8y ago

"Hi boss, I can't show up today, I have sick building syndrome. Actually, I won't be able to show up ever again."

fubarito 8y ago

been there. landed a great job, loved the coding tasks, had great colleagues. the office was an open-plan one. seemed cold rightaway for me. sitting under a ventilation shaft, the cool air flowing was not pleasant but still liveable. cold all day long but also sweating at the same time as the office didnt seem to have oxygen. gasping out of a small kitchen window for air - one of few openable ones :) did some air vents hacking. 4 months i start to feel weird. cold empassing my bladder, lower stomach. total allergy to any airflow. took a -20 degree celsius sleeping bag to work. spending my days wrapped in it. didnt help. switching office desks to see if there's a chair i can sit at. the 40+ people in the open plan obviously see theres a nutcase in the building. my direct bosses are compassionate though. they see im not kidding. under-table-portable heating is suggested. geopathogenic zones are suggested existing in place. i go see doctors. im in pain, my bladder us killing me, doctors/urologists say everything is fine with me. i cant drive the subway because theres draught. i google sick building syndrome. us this really hapenning ? i quit. they let me go rightaway (thx) im fine in two weeks. havent experienced that since (6-7 years?) but been working in non-airconditioned buildings since then. fearing the moment a next job has similar fucked up problems. ill say bye bye right away, wont be waiting for months!!!

Jarwain 8y ago
The only thing I can think of is mold-related, but at low enough concentration that it doesn't affect most people? Sounds like a spooky experience though
- fubarito 8y ago
  yeah, who knows. im not a fan of air conditioning. never been. maybe my mind just decided "youre not gonna spend your time here boy, open plan offices are nonsense" and it was all psychosomatic. funny is the three months contract i had right before this experience was in winter and i had the pleasure to sit right next to a window having it open almost all the time facing my back, letting in precious oxygen. paradise ! so it was not cold air per-se. to hell with open-plan & air conditioning!
pharrington 8y ago

honksillet 8y ago

I had terribly allergic rhinitis throughout my youth, but only at my family's home. When, after I moved out, my parents pulled out the carpet in my old bedroom, my allergies at that house vanished.

redcalx 8y ago
For me removal of carpets is the #1 thing to do if you have allergic rhinitis, especially if there are pets.
newnewpdro 8y ago
Carpets are awful breeding grounds. I use low-cost area rugs which get shaken outside regularly or simply replaced. I've nailed a few heavy-duty spring-loaded clamps to an elevated wood deck joist where I hang them for shaking and a day in the sun every couple weeks. Don't even have a vacuum cleaner anymore, it's a huge improvement in quality of life.

noobermin 8y ago

I'm surprised they didn't mention allergies. Dust mites and mold can cause many of these symptoms in people (this is what I deal with in my own apartment).

shocks 8y ago

Five Ways Tower[1] in Birmingham, UK has been closed for years because of this. > The building is vacant due to the last tenants evacuating the building due to ill health amongst the workforce. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_Tower

userbinator 8y ago

I suspect a lot of it is caused by an emphasis on energy efficiency, which means tightly sealed rooms and HVAC that's set to recirculate the majority of air rather than bring in fresh air from outside. I've noticed that a lot of older buildings tend to have more fresh-air ventilation than newer ones for this reason.

pkaye 8y ago
I think now they are starting to use air exchangers to bring in outside air while not losing as much heat/cold.
ip26 8y ago
It's energy efficiency, but also old buildings. They weren't designed with insulation & sealing in mind, and as a result can actually depend on leaking lots of heat to control condensation, mold & mildew. Seal them up and suddenly... Newer buildings are designed with tightly sealed rooms & thick insulation in mind, and thus don't generally have big condensation problems.
alexis_fr 8y ago
Worked in 7 of them, million dollars of brand new buildings... Energy efficent buildings are efficient because they’re not as mild as they should be, always too cold in winter, always above 25° in summer (in actual on-the-desk thermometer measurement), lights switch off at set times when you still work and no proper way to override anything « because consumption would get out of the target ». Those building are built for the norms, not for the human inside. In fact they make you well notice that the human is the intruder. And they’re here for the next 30-70 years.
- saeranv 8y ago
  Yes. We run energy/thermal comfort simulations to figure out where it's reasonable to to impose thermal discomfort on our inhabitants. If our energy models tell us that there's one extreme week that will be really hot, but we can reduce the HVAC sizing (for cost and energy efficiency), I think it's prudent to do so. I always argue on the side of reducing energy whenever possible. That's a couple of days over the course of the year though, we're not imposing discomfort every day! The industry has also been shifting towards different thermal comfort models (PMV or Predicted Mean Vote to ATC Adaptive Thermal Comfort) which takes into account inhabitants changing their clothing (i.e removing sweater), using personal fans, opening windows to modify their environment for comfort. FYI, I work in an office that actively uses all these strategies, and personally I don't mind it. Even if it's initially uncomfortable, human beings usually adapt to different thermal stresses in about two weeks of exposure. And yes, it does require some social/cultural shifts (in N. America especially) if you're expected to be a more active participant in making yourself feel thermally comfortable. ETA: Clarifying thermal comfort strategies.

cowpewter 8y ago

I worked in a building like this. Over the year I worked in that office, my asthma got gradually worse and worse. I went from using my rescue inhaler maybe once every couple months (for minor cough/discomfort), to using it multiple times per day just to breathe. Inhaled steroids (Advair Diskus) were added to my asthma prescriptions. Eventually I could barely get through the day without prolonged fits of coughing and multiple asthma attacks. Went to the doctor again, got diagnosed with bronchitis, sent home with prescription cough medicine and even more steroids (prednisone) and was told not to work for at least a week. Got better. Started coughing again within 30 minutes of entering the building when I went back to work. Then put together that with the fact that I always felt a little better after my lunch breaks to realize it was the building itself making me sick. We were getting ready to move to a larger office anyway, so got permission to work from home when necessary until the move. We moved offices, my coughing stopped. I discontinued all the steroids and now am back to using my rescue inhaler almost never. I can't imagine the building had no effect on anyone else, but I definitely got the worst of it. No one else got sick the way I did. The building itself was a historic building, a Firestone car repair place that had been retro-fitted to be an office. It was built in 1927, and then sat empty since the 1950s, until it was renovated in 2014.

Pica_soO 8y ago
There are lots of buildings, with a dark history. Glue used for the carpet that constantly exhales solvents- its especially horrible if your building was a industrial site before. Those brick buildings near trainstations, that where formerly train maintenance sheds are particularly horrible, as the oil in most trains was highly carcinogenic and seeped right into the brick during maintenance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_oil#Polychlorinated_biphenyls_(PCBs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_oil#Polychlorinate... Always read up on the history of the building you are working in. Also, always google industrial scandals in the local news-paper- usually they just rebuild right over spill sites- and the stuff smells up after rain.
itronitron 8y ago
In addition to mold, mildew, and pollen, a lot of people are allergic to various types of critters and their droppings. I don't want to think about what can accumulate over 50 years in an empty building.

rabidrat 8y ago

It's so weird, I've had something like this at a co-working space I was at. Upper level smelled "musty" or something to me, and I felt half-sick every time I would spend a full day up there. Went to the lower level and was fine. When they consolidated to the upper level only, I went with, and my symptoms returned. It was so consistent that I had to leave, but I still feel weird about it...how come no one else was experiencing this? They couldn't smell the same smell and seem to be fine working there day in and day out. Am I really that hypersensitive?

z3t4 8y ago

Use scientific methods to measure air flow and quality (CO2), and humidity. You want around 50% humidity and CO2 to be below 700 ppm. CO2 doesn't directly measure air quality, only how often that air is changed. The more like outside (around 300 ppm) the better. 35% or lower humidity will effect your your skin and mucous membrane. A dried out mucous membrane makes it easier to catch a cold. And dried out skin leads to cracks and itching. But too high humidity 80% + is also bad. If the temperature between outside and inside differs more then 7 degrees C, it's enough to effect the humidity, for example if it's cold outside, the cold air expand, leading to less relative water. You can get a humidifier or dehumidifier to control humidity, and use ventilation to control air ventilation. Then there's also temperature, you want around 20-23 C to be comfortable, but I guess you already figured that one =)

refurb 8y ago
for example if it's cold outside, the cold air expand, leading to less relative water. Isn’t it more about the ability of warmer air to hold more water versus the expansion of colder air? Relative humidity is percentage of water (versus saturation) at that temperature. If you have 50% humidity at 50F, and heat the air to 70F, that becomes 27% relative humidity.[1] [1]https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humid...
- z3t4 8y ago
  I think it's both.
the_jeremy 8y ago
I recently bought a CO2 monitor, and found that my girlfriend's apartment is regularly over 1200 ppm. Is there anything I can do about this issue? We can't just open the windows as it currently ~40F outside.
- trobertson 8y ago
  You could get a bunch of plants. They probably won't solve the problem outright, but they are a good first step.

tokyodude 8y ago

Does anyone have any experience with air quality sensors what would easily tell me if the air in the building I'm in is bad along the lines of sick building syndrome? Ideally some sensor that's relatively inexpensive and easy to use and connects to smart phone? There's several out there for home use but I'd love to carry around something that just told me constantly and also that was more than just particle density sensor.

Something1234 8y ago
I saw quite a few arduino sensors so you could build your own. I've linked a couple, but I haven't bought them yet. https://www.amazon.com/KEYESTUDIO-Particle-Monitor-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07B2PFPB5/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1541976906&sr=8-3&keywords=arduino+air+sensor https://www.amazon.com/KEYESTUDIO-Particle-Monitor-Arduino-R... https://www.amazon.com/Keywish-Detector-Mega2560-Raspberry-Beginners-x/dp/B01N1UB89A/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1541976906&sr=8-7&keywords=arduino+air+sensor https://www.amazon.com/Keywish-Detector-Mega2560-Raspberry-B...
- ungzd 8y ago
  The first one does not have filter so it will count large particles, such as regular dust, too. This does not makes it useless but this should be taken into consideration.
  - ungzd 8y ago
    Sorry, seems that similar sensors doesn't need filters and detect particle size ranges by intensity of scattered light. However, I can't find information about what sizes this sensor detects.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

Anecdotally, this can happen without it being the building per se. When I worked in a cubicle farm, cubicles were not necessarily cleaned out if someone left. I have serious health issues, including respiratory problems, and I'm very sensitive to dust, germs, etc. My immediate boss was asthmatic and yadda. There was an abandoned cubicle very near both of us that had about two linear feet of papers in it. They were covered in a visible layer of dust. I concluded this was negatively impacting my health. I knew no one would believe me or care. Everyone always acts like I have an overactive imagination. I began quietly carting the papers out. Anything still usable got redistributed and re-used. Anything in such bad shape it couldn't be mailed to customers got dumped in the recycling bins a handful at a time. It probably took me a week or two to do this in small enough amounts at a time so that no one would notice what I was doing. My asthmatic boss was on like round three of antibiotics for bronchitis that wouldn't clear up. After all the musty, dusty papers were removed, she "coincidentally" finally got better.

alex__c 8y ago
And sometimes it's an entire city that's the problem. My girlfriend comes from a mountainous zone. We live in the city that I was born, a dusty place in the plains. Guess what, within one year she developed respiratory problems. We are actually considering moving towns because it's literally impossible to get rid of the dust effectively, here.

tartoran 8y ago

I think carpets are the source of a lot of problems with office buildings. Carpets and problematic central air, with possible mold, bad filters, etc. In the US it is not possible to open the widows in these types of offices.

Spooky23 8y ago

My father in law was the fire chief in a city where a locally famous government building was notorious for sick building syndrome in the 90s. The building was and is a soulless cube farm with floors alternating in color from institutional green/gray/orange/blue. It was 90% psychology, usually kicked off by a smell, anything from wet hair to popcorn to paint. They were medically evacuating a dozen people a day at the peak hysteria. His solution was to park the fire truck and ambulance behind well out of site and respond in a UHaul truck. The fireman/paramedic left turnout gear behind and wore a hoodie over their uniform, and turned off radios. Once they did that, the calls went down to 1-2 a day and went away about a week after that.

sershe 8y ago

Heh, now that I got reminded of this... I had throat pain for 7-8 weeks or so after moving into an old house. It would go away when I was away from home. There's no obvious mold, dust, moisture etc. problem; so I was about to schedule a professional air test, when the throat pain stopped and never came back. Also, my wife never had any problems. What would you think that was? A temporary sick building? My only hypothesis is that I am allergic to something outside the house that is not there anymore now that it's fall. However, the plants around the house are basically the same stuff that's present everywhere around town.

itronitron 8y ago
Pollens tend to be very seasonal so it could be a specific type of pollen outside, or it could be due to an inadequately ventilated or insulated (and very hot) attic pushing stuff into the rest of the house during the summer months. If you have lived in the same town for over five years without any issues then it probably is not pollen. In which case if you own the house then you can have someone check the attic ventilation, and schedule the hvac system to be cleaned out or replaced. If you rent then just plan on moving within a year.

aaron695 8y ago

Do people actually believe this shit "Sick building syndrome" If so perhaps go see a good Naturopath. Sure it's psychosomatic, and this is in itself a illness. And it causes issues, see the Cuban Embassy. But on HN can't we start at the level of psychosomatic and then talk about how to deal with that. Because you can. You can design to reduce psychosomatic behaviour. Like have trees and plants around. There's a science here, why doesn't this not interest the HN community.