5 ms·

This is not new, and is not unique to China. Any country with intelligence units, like the US, is using data mining to identify and control their citizens. It h

This is not new, and is not unique to China. Any country with intelligence units, like the US, is using data mining to identify and control their citizens. It has become fashionable lately to imply that China is the only country doing these things, or somehow doing it in larger scale. Has everyone forgotten what Snowden revealed?

dmitriy_ko 8y ago
China is doing it at MUCH larger scale and a lot more intrusive. Everything on the internet is tracked and filtered, cameras everywhere. Chinese government can pinpoint location of any of it's 1.3 bln citizens.
- coliveira 8y ago
  Sorry, but it looks like China is just playing catch up on this. The US intelligence already has information on pretty much every American, their social networks, phone calls, consumer habits, etc. And through Facebook, Google and others, they also have information about mosts people around the world. Even if China is able to track everyone inside Chine they're still at a disadvantage compared to the US covert operations.
  - ctoth 8y ago
    The whataboutism is strong with this one. Is there a service that lets you associate your own tags with HN accounts? could be useful. Or abused. But useful.
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      They're not making a value statement, it's a capabilities statement.
    - eiaoa 8y ago
      > Is there a service that lets you associate your own tags with HN accounts? could be useful. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/hn-friends/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/hn-friends/ https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hn-friends/ffgfcbfgdemibfcpcfkpicfgkiojbdkn?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hn-friends/ffgfcbf...
- LMYahooTFY 8y ago
  Do you have evidence to back up any of that? China doesn't have near the surveillance infrastructure that the US government does outside of China. The simple fact that China has more citizens to surveil does not mean China is conducting surveillance on a larger scale.
  - onychomys 8y ago
    The parent article starts with "China is home to the world’s largest network of CCTV cameras — more than 170 million...", so apparently they really are conducting surveillance on the largest scale.
    - LMYahooTFY 8y ago
      I don't think the number of CCTV cameras is the only relevant metric...
  - godelski 8y ago
    I do. Cops don't have this tech.
bsamuels 8y ago
I dont remember anything in the snowden docs about the NSA trying to track the movement of all american citizens. Comparing what the NSA does to what China does is like comparing the treatment of women in the US and Saudi Arabia
- coliveira 8y ago
  Of course, Snowden was only able to review what he saw 5 years ago or more. Why you have any doubts that the NSA, with ample resources to track and control, would use techniques similar to what the Chinese do? Do we really need another Snowden to realize this obvious fact?
  - eiaoa 8y ago
    > Of course, Snowden was only able to review what he saw 5 years ago or more. Why you have any doubts that the NSA, with ample resources to track and control, would use techniques similar to what the Chinese do? Do we really need another Snowden to realize this obvious fact? Why do you have so much certainty? What evidence can you provide that they use or currently plan to use these techniques domestically for widespread tracking?
  - vokep 8y ago
    Because while sure they may be working on any sinister form of control possible, the NSA has to do it in secret, which makes it a bit harder to trample on rights. In China it isn't secret, its just the way things are.
- rebuilder 8y ago
  Are you familiar with Total Information Awareness?
- squarefoot 8y ago
  I think it is safe to assume that every country deploying networks of surveillance cameras and infrastructures for tracking communications won't limit its use to counter terrorism or other "good" purposes. Why? Because they can, and because the first thing any powers that be do once they get the captains chair is to secure their position, and surveillance is an extremely powerful tool to get that goal. It may seem excessive and paranoid, but again I would be surprised if they didn't.
alexnewman 8y ago
Yea, china is in a different league. You are talking about 400M video cameras. The only thing close are the self driving car companies, who will be selling info the feds :)
nil_pointer 8y ago
Nobody is denying that other countries do it too
dob1 8y ago
Chinese government can kill any citizens anytime they want. If Snowden is born in China, his parents and relatives will be used as hostage or sent into jail.
Just_Smith 8y ago
I think it's important to remember that the Snowden leaks occurred shortly before the "Big Data" craze went into full swing. Even Snowden said at the time that their was more data than could be effectively analyzed. While I agree with what you're saying, it makes sense that we'd be getting this information only just now - after there has been enough time for 1) data scientists and the like to become prevalent/cheap enough for government contracting and 2) enough time to build working applications on top of all that data.
guelo 8y ago
I think it's even more fashionable when there's criticism of any other country to respond with "whatabout the US". No matter it's many faults the US is still a democracy with checks and balances.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- drb91 8y ago
  A) the US is not a democracy: see the senate. B) this is not an excuse for the consistent course towards militaristic, authoritarian state fueled by fear.
_iyig 8y ago
It’s controversial because China does not have an independent judiciary or any real civil rights protections, so the potential for and likelihood of abuse is much higher. See also the concentration camps containing over 1 million Muslims in Xinjiang province [0]. EDIT: Sourced claim. [0] https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924?pfmredir=sm https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-e...
partiallypro 8y ago
Don't even pretend that the US and the China use this tech the same way. The US might have a few bad apples in intelligence using data mining for bad things and there have been some questionable data being mined; but suppression of people isn't happening from it. China is using this tracking to actively suppress their people and view that do not align with the state.
Benjammer 8y ago
Also the specific concept of gait analysis[0] has been around for decades. Changing one's gait has been an important piece of the tradecraft tool box for a long time now[1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gait_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gait_analysis [1]: https://youtu.be/JASUsVY5YJ8?t=278 https://youtu.be/JASUsVY5YJ8?t=278

dmitriy_ko 8y ago

China is doing it at MUCH larger scale and a lot more intrusive. Everything on the internet is tracked and filtered, cameras everywhere. Chinese government can pinpoint location of any of it's 1.3 bln citizens.

coliveira 8y ago
Sorry, but it looks like China is just playing catch up on this. The US intelligence already has information on pretty much every American, their social networks, phone calls, consumer habits, etc. And through Facebook, Google and others, they also have information about mosts people around the world. Even if China is able to track everyone inside Chine they're still at a disadvantage compared to the US covert operations.
- ctoth 8y ago
  The whataboutism is strong with this one. Is there a service that lets you associate your own tags with HN accounts? could be useful. Or abused. But useful.
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    They're not making a value statement, it's a capabilities statement.
  - eiaoa 8y ago
    > Is there a service that lets you associate your own tags with HN accounts? could be useful. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/hn-friends/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/hn-friends/ https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hn-friends/ffgfcbfgdemibfcpcfkpicfgkiojbdkn?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hn-friends/ffgfcbf...
LMYahooTFY 8y ago
Do you have evidence to back up any of that? China doesn't have near the surveillance infrastructure that the US government does outside of China. The simple fact that China has more citizens to surveil does not mean China is conducting surveillance on a larger scale.
- onychomys 8y ago
  The parent article starts with "China is home to the world’s largest network of CCTV cameras — more than 170 million...", so apparently they really are conducting surveillance on the largest scale.
  - LMYahooTFY 8y ago
    I don't think the number of CCTV cameras is the only relevant metric...
- godelski 8y ago
  I do. Cops don't have this tech.

bsamuels 8y ago

I dont remember anything in the snowden docs about the NSA trying to track the movement of all american citizens. Comparing what the NSA does to what China does is like comparing the treatment of women in the US and Saudi Arabia

coliveira 8y ago
Of course, Snowden was only able to review what he saw 5 years ago or more. Why you have any doubts that the NSA, with ample resources to track and control, would use techniques similar to what the Chinese do? Do we really need another Snowden to realize this obvious fact?
- eiaoa 8y ago
  > Of course, Snowden was only able to review what he saw 5 years ago or more. Why you have any doubts that the NSA, with ample resources to track and control, would use techniques similar to what the Chinese do? Do we really need another Snowden to realize this obvious fact? Why do you have so much certainty? What evidence can you provide that they use or currently plan to use these techniques domestically for widespread tracking?
- vokep 8y ago
  Because while sure they may be working on any sinister form of control possible, the NSA has to do it in secret, which makes it a bit harder to trample on rights. In China it isn't secret, its just the way things are.
rebuilder 8y ago
Are you familiar with Total Information Awareness?
squarefoot 8y ago
I think it is safe to assume that every country deploying networks of surveillance cameras and infrastructures for tracking communications won't limit its use to counter terrorism or other "good" purposes. Why? Because they can, and because the first thing any powers that be do once they get the captains chair is to secure their position, and surveillance is an extremely powerful tool to get that goal. It may seem excessive and paranoid, but again I would be surprised if they didn't.

alexnewman 8y ago

Yea, china is in a different league. You are talking about 400M video cameras. The only thing close are the self driving car companies, who will be selling info the feds :)

nil_pointer 8y ago

Nobody is denying that other countries do it too

dob1 8y ago

Chinese government can kill any citizens anytime they want. If Snowden is born in China, his parents and relatives will be used as hostage or sent into jail.

Just_Smith 8y ago

I think it's important to remember that the Snowden leaks occurred shortly before the "Big Data" craze went into full swing. Even Snowden said at the time that their was more data than could be effectively analyzed. While I agree with what you're saying, it makes sense that we'd be getting this information only just now - after there has been enough time for 1) data scientists and the like to become prevalent/cheap enough for government contracting and 2) enough time to build working applications on top of all that data.

guelo 8y ago

I think it's even more fashionable when there's criticism of any other country to respond with "whatabout the US". No matter it's many faults the US is still a democracy with checks and balances.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
drb91 8y ago
A) the US is not a democracy: see the senate. B) this is not an excuse for the consistent course towards militaristic, authoritarian state fueled by fear.

_iyig 8y ago

It’s controversial because China does not have an independent judiciary or any real civil rights protections, so the potential for and likelihood of abuse is much higher. See also the concentration camps containing over 1 million Muslims in Xinjiang province [0]. EDIT: Sourced claim. [0] https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924?pfmredir=sm https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-e...

partiallypro 8y ago

Don't even pretend that the US and the China use this tech the same way. The US might have a few bad apples in intelligence using data mining for bad things and there have been some questionable data being mined; but suppression of people isn't happening from it. China is using this tracking to actively suppress their people and view that do not align with the state.

Benjammer 8y ago

Also the specific concept of gait analysis[0] has been around for decades. Changing one's gait has been an important piece of the tradecraft tool box for a long time now[1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gait_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gait_analysis [1]: https://youtu.be/JASUsVY5YJ8?t=278 https://youtu.be/JASUsVY5YJ8?t=278