4 ms·

They also investigated the Brexit Remain campaign. I don't think anyone has clean hands in this.

lordnacho 8y ago
The question is what do you do when someone is found to have cheated on their campaign funding? You can fine them, throw them in jail, but what happens to the referendum result? If you don't have a do-over, people will learn there's not really a consequence. If you do, a lot of people who legitimately voted will be annoyed.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Other people will be annoyed if you don't, there is no solution that pleases everybody or even a majority.
- karmenblack 8y ago
  What if both sides were funded? Do you think people can't think for themselves?
  - ben_w 8y ago
    That’s a bad way of phrasing it. Democracy requires a well-informed electorate to function. If the electorate is badly informed or misinformed then it doesn’t function as a democracy, but as a (Propaganda-ocracy?). The complexity of the world that leads to economic specialisation also precludes informed decision making by a conventional electorate. I don’t have a solution to this yet. I don’t even know if there is a solution — I’ve heard that humanity has swung from democracy to aristocracy and back over the ages for this exact reason, but the very specialisation that has me concerned is also making me unsure about that. One of the modifications of democracy we discussed in A-level philosophy was getting one vote for existing, another for having a degree, another for being a parent, etc.
    - karmenblack 8y ago
      So only propaganda peddled by the state is valid? These days every outlet has an agenda and blocking one just because it is coming from Russia is a false economy. Either block all propaganda or none and let people figure out the truth.
      - ben_w 8y ago
        By what chain of reasoning did you go from what I wrote to that response? Of course state propaganda is as invalid as anyone else’s! And all states equally, too! Neither attempting to block nor failing to block solves the problem of discovering what the truth is. The former because it presupposes you already know the answer, the latter because it’s trivial to algorithmically create endless variations and combinations of lies and truths so that there literally isn’t enough time to decide what to believe. Even intelligence agencies fall for fabrications. What hope do the rest of us have?
  - starbeast 8y ago
    >Do you think people can't think for themselves? I think they can. They largely don't however, otherwise advertising wouldn't be such a successful industry.
    - karmenblack 8y ago
      That's why democracy is legal so that government can push their views through licensed media and people will vote accordingly.
  - lordnacho 8y ago
    > Do you think people can't think for themselves? No, of course they can't. Is it not generally the case that most people do not know anything about the basic facts of how their country is governed? And roughly the history of the place? Isn't it the case that most people don't bother with following politics most of the time?
throwaway5752 8y ago
Unfounded, unsupported whataboutism to muddy the waters.
- gadders 8y ago
  From a throwaway account, lol. Page 54 in the report from the ICO: https://ico.org.uk/media/action-weve-taken/reports/2260277/investigation-into-the-use-of-data-analytics-in-political-campaigns-20181107.pdf https://ico.org.uk/media/action-weve-taken/reports/2260277/i...
  - throwaway5752 8y ago
    My "throwaway" account is 5 years old and has 2500+ karma. Your link confirms my statement. In 64 pages there is one section about Remain with the mild statement, "We are still looking at how the Remain side of the referendum campaign handled personal data, including the electoral roll, and will be considering whether there are any breaches of data protection or electoral law requiring further action."... That is a very mild statement, and the rest of the 98% of the document is about much more serious Leave investigations. You are conflating their findings that there was a coordinated effort with law-breaking activities in the Leave campaign, with ongoing investigations and crimes, with the Remain campaign, where they are looking at whether much more minor to clean up and analyze data that was 100% legally acquired didn't violate privacy agreements. There is no equivalence whatsoever.
    - gadders 8y ago
      It means they are being investigated on the basis of the LibDems selling them their data, and the other shoe hasn't dropped yet.
starbeast 8y ago
Has the remain campaign been referred to the police for breaking the law?
- gadders 8y ago
  From the ICO Report: >> During the course of our investigation, we obtained information that the Liberal Democrats had sold the personal data of its party members to BSiE [Britain Stronger in Europe] for approximately £100,000. >>Both the Liberal Democrats and Open Britain denied that party members’ personal data had been sold. Instead, both confirmed that the In Campaign bought Electoral Register information from the Liberal Democrats. >>We are still looking at how the Remain side of the referendum campaign handled personal data, including the electoral roll, and will be considering whether there are any breaches of data protection or electoral law requiring further action.
  - starbeast 8y ago
    So, no then?
    - gadders 8y ago
      It's "not yet", not "never will".

The question is what do you do when someone is found to have cheated on their campaign funding? You can fine them, throw them in jail, but what happens to the referendum result? If you don't have a do-over, people will learn there's not really a consequence. If you do, a lot of people who legitimately voted will be annoyed.

tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Other people will be annoyed if you don't, there is no solution that pleases everybody or even a majority.
karmenblack 8y ago
What if both sides were funded? Do you think people can't think for themselves?
- ben_w 8y ago
  That’s a bad way of phrasing it. Democracy requires a well-informed electorate to function. If the electorate is badly informed or misinformed then it doesn’t function as a democracy, but as a (Propaganda-ocracy?). The complexity of the world that leads to economic specialisation also precludes informed decision making by a conventional electorate. I don’t have a solution to this yet. I don’t even know if there is a solution — I’ve heard that humanity has swung from democracy to aristocracy and back over the ages for this exact reason, but the very specialisation that has me concerned is also making me unsure about that. One of the modifications of democracy we discussed in A-level philosophy was getting one vote for existing, another for having a degree, another for being a parent, etc.
  - karmenblack 8y ago
    So only propaganda peddled by the state is valid? These days every outlet has an agenda and blocking one just because it is coming from Russia is a false economy. Either block all propaganda or none and let people figure out the truth.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      By what chain of reasoning did you go from what I wrote to that response? Of course state propaganda is as invalid as anyone else’s! And all states equally, too! Neither attempting to block nor failing to block solves the problem of discovering what the truth is. The former because it presupposes you already know the answer, the latter because it’s trivial to algorithmically create endless variations and combinations of lies and truths so that there literally isn’t enough time to decide what to believe. Even intelligence agencies fall for fabrications. What hope do the rest of us have?
- starbeast 8y ago
  >Do you think people can't think for themselves? I think they can. They largely don't however, otherwise advertising wouldn't be such a successful industry.
  - karmenblack 8y ago
    That's why democracy is legal so that government can push their views through licensed media and people will vote accordingly.
- lordnacho 8y ago
  > Do you think people can't think for themselves? No, of course they can't. Is it not generally the case that most people do not know anything about the basic facts of how their country is governed? And roughly the history of the place? Isn't it the case that most people don't bother with following politics most of the time?

throwaway5752 8y ago

Unfounded, unsupported whataboutism to muddy the waters.

gadders 8y ago
From a throwaway account, lol. Page 54 in the report from the ICO: https://ico.org.uk/media/action-weve-taken/reports/2260277/investigation-into-the-use-of-data-analytics-in-political-campaigns-20181107.pdf https://ico.org.uk/media/action-weve-taken/reports/2260277/i...
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  My "throwaway" account is 5 years old and has 2500+ karma. Your link confirms my statement. In 64 pages there is one section about Remain with the mild statement, "We are still looking at how the Remain side of the referendum campaign handled personal data, including the electoral roll, and will be considering whether there are any breaches of data protection or electoral law requiring further action."... That is a very mild statement, and the rest of the 98% of the document is about much more serious Leave investigations. You are conflating their findings that there was a coordinated effort with law-breaking activities in the Leave campaign, with ongoing investigations and crimes, with the Remain campaign, where they are looking at whether much more minor to clean up and analyze data that was 100% legally acquired didn't violate privacy agreements. There is no equivalence whatsoever.
  - gadders 8y ago
    It means they are being investigated on the basis of the LibDems selling them their data, and the other shoe hasn't dropped yet.

starbeast 8y ago

Has the remain campaign been referred to the police for breaking the law?

gadders 8y ago
From the ICO Report: >> During the course of our investigation, we obtained information that the Liberal Democrats had sold the personal data of its party members to BSiE [Britain Stronger in Europe] for approximately £100,000. >>Both the Liberal Democrats and Open Britain denied that party members’ personal data had been sold. Instead, both confirmed that the In Campaign bought Electoral Register information from the Liberal Democrats. >>We are still looking at how the Remain side of the referendum campaign handled personal data, including the electoral roll, and will be considering whether there are any breaches of data protection or electoral law requiring further action.
- starbeast 8y ago
  So, no then?
  - gadders 8y ago
    It's "not yet", not "never will".