5 ms·

I don't know about that. There's also the nocebo effect [1] that is rather well known. You make it sound like "placebo" is purely a bias thing, but AFAIK both p

I don't know about that. There's also the nocebo effect [1] that is rather well known. You make it sound like "placebo" is purely a bias thing, but AFAIK both placebo & nocebo effects, though presumably psychogenic, can sometimes induce measurable changes in the body. [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3401955/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3401955/

gcthomas 8y ago
Don't you think it is intriguing that the placebo effect only gets reported for non-specific subjective complaints, and not physically measurable ones?
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  This article lists a few physically measurable changes caused by placebo: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306437.php https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306437.php
- SilasX 8y ago
  WhyDontPlacebosRegrowLimbs.com (Not a real site, just riffing off whydoesntgodhealamputees.com.)
embwbam 8y ago
There’s a great chapter in Thinking Fast and Slow where he talks about how placebo might be only a statistical phenomenon: regression to the mean. Sick people are a statistically extreme group, and tend to revert to the mean over time without intervention.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  does that stand up to experiments pitting a placebo group against a control group that gets no treatment at all?
  - disgruntledphd2 8y ago
    No, it does not. While Kahneman is a wonderful scientist (psychologist, btw), he has this annoying habit of attempting to fit everything into his models. He's dead wrong on placebo, even though regression to the mean is a real thing.
    - srtjstjsj 8y ago
      There is research supporting Kahneman: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1280801 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1280801
      - disgruntledphd2 8y ago
        So while I don't dispute your link (because it's correct), the placebo effect is normally defined as the effect over and above that seen in the no-treatment group (who don't get a placebo or treatment). Regression to the mean would impact both placebo and no treatment (as well as treatment) groups equally, so cannot be the explanation for the entirity of the placebo effect.
        gcthomas 8y ago
        Placebo patients know that they have received a treatment, so that introduces a bias in the reporting of outcomes from the patient, even if the medics are blinded. If you believe you have been treated it is well known that patients report improvements even for illnesses that can be measured not to have improved. The breaking of blinding and contrary measurements is enough to undermine most claims for placebo.
        disgruntledphd2 8y ago
        Yes, I agree. That's what the no-treatment group controls for. And generally, both medics and patients are blinded.
        8y ago

gcthomas 8y ago

Don't you think it is intriguing that the placebo effect only gets reported for non-specific subjective complaints, and not physically measurable ones?

gameswithgo 8y ago
This article lists a few physically measurable changes caused by placebo: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306437.php https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306437.php
SilasX 8y ago
WhyDontPlacebosRegrowLimbs.com (Not a real site, just riffing off whydoesntgodhealamputees.com.)

embwbam 8y ago

There’s a great chapter in Thinking Fast and Slow where he talks about how placebo might be only a statistical phenomenon: regression to the mean. Sick people are a statistically extreme group, and tend to revert to the mean over time without intervention.

beaconstudios 8y ago
does that stand up to experiments pitting a placebo group against a control group that gets no treatment at all?
- disgruntledphd2 8y ago
  No, it does not. While Kahneman is a wonderful scientist (psychologist, btw), he has this annoying habit of attempting to fit everything into his models. He's dead wrong on placebo, even though regression to the mean is a real thing.
  - srtjstjsj 8y ago
    There is research supporting Kahneman: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1280801 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1280801
    - disgruntledphd2 8y ago
      So while I don't dispute your link (because it's correct), the placebo effect is normally defined as the effect over and above that seen in the no-treatment group (who don't get a placebo or treatment). Regression to the mean would impact both placebo and no treatment (as well as treatment) groups equally, so cannot be the explanation for the entirity of the placebo effect.
      - gcthomas 8y ago
        Placebo patients know that they have received a treatment, so that introduces a bias in the reporting of outcomes from the patient, even if the medics are blinded. If you believe you have been treated it is well known that patients report improvements even for illnesses that can be measured not to have improved. The breaking of blinding and contrary measurements is enough to undermine most claims for placebo.
        disgruntledphd2 8y ago
        Yes, I agree. That's what the no-treatment group controls for. And generally, both medics and patients are blinded.
        8y ago