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> I'm coming from the same place, except I don't think it's privilege, I think it's wanting to build a world where anyone can take a year off for anything and n

> I'm coming from the same place, except I don't think it's privilege, I think it's wanting to build a world where anyone can take a year off for anything and not have that held against them if they later want to go work for someone. Do YOU want to have surgery from a surgeon that hasn't performed in year? Your idea is fine utopian, fluffy unicorn, ideology. But practically it just won't work. This doesn't have anything to do with politics or a shitty system. It is just the facts of reality, if you are out of practice of your profession for year your skills won't be as sharp as someone who hasn't taken a year off.

Frondo 8y ago
Surgeons can and do take a year off from their practice, and return to work. I would absolutely be patient #1 after some surgeon's sabbatical. I also find it deeply depressing that "a person should be able to take a year off work" is now utopian, fluffy unicorn ideology on a forum for forward-thinking technologists.
- davrosthedalek 8y ago
  Oh, you totally should be able to take off for a year. The same way you can elect not to go to university. Or look in the laser. You just have to live with the consequences. And in many, many professions, a year or so out of practice means that you are measurably worse. Maybe (but likely) worse than before you left, but almost certainly worse than you could be if you would have used that year to get better at what ever you do.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Are you still going to be worse after a month of work? Are companies that short-term-oriented?
    - jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
      >Are companies that short-term-oriented? Publicly traded ones. There are only 3 months between Earnings Reports.
    - davrosthedalek 8y ago
      Depends really on what work you are doing. Garbage collector, probably no. Helicopter pilot, probably yes.
  - aswanson 8y ago
    In software, a year off might mean you get better. If you have more time to work on your own ideas and explore new paradigms instead of cranking out fizzbuzz all day in between commutes, you can become better.
    - davrosthedalek 8y ago
      Totally. Same goes for sabbaticals in science, for example. It really depends on what you are doing in that year though, and how fast your particular field is moving.
- dpark 8y ago
  The year off isn’t the fluffy unicorn bit. The fluffy unicorn bit is that you think your choices should have no consequences. If you want to take a decade off work, you certainly have that right. But that doesn’t mean employers should pretend that you have an extra decade of experience, just as your choice to forgo a degree doesn’t mean an employer should pretend you earned a doctorate.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    Ah so discriminating against the posh kid who took a "Gap Yah" is ok now. Presumably we should discriminate against all 4 year graduates as they took an extra year to graduate's who do it in 3.
    - dpark 8y ago
      > Presumably we should discriminate against all 4 year graduates as they took an extra year to graduate's who do it in 3. We do. All things being equal, the person hired a year earlier will have higher pay. As they should, since they have an extra year of experience. Assuming equal candidates, the one with more experience will do a better job (second system syndrome notwithstanding).
      - Frondo 8y ago
        What's absolutely amazing to me is that one of the biggest complaints about unions you see is how pay is tied to seniority; the worker who's there the longest gets the most pay, not the one who "deserves" the most pay. And here people are arguing the exact same thing!!! One extra year of time working means higher pay! That's exactly what a lot of union pay scales are structured like, but that's evil unions; this is somehow just right???
        dpark 8y ago
        You’re misunderstanding. Rewarding for merit will bias towards higher pay for experience. More experience will in general lead to higher merit and thus higher pay. Also HN, despite the meme, is not a hive mind. Some here are in support of unions and don’t consider them evil.
- jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
  > I also find it deeply depressing that "a person should be able to take a year off work" is now utopian, fluffy unicorn ideology on a forum for forward-thinking technologists. There is nothing stopping you from taking a year off work. Go right head. You won't get paid, and they won't hold your job, and you will have gap to explain when you are interviewing for a position when you want to return. Don't expect the world to bend backwards and ignore realities so you can take a year off.
BeetleB 8y ago
>Do YOU want to have surgery from a surgeon that hasn't performed in year? There can be something like a transition period. The world is not binary. Surgeons get sick. They get injured. They take time off. Just like everyone else. The reason they took time off should not be relevant.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  The reason should not be relevant. The fact that they did could be (in some cases), IMO.
  - Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
    Many people here have echoed the fears and complaints I've heard on this topic. Simply that somehow taking parental leave at all puts you at a disadvantage. Or puts you in a position where you have to explain yourself. I feel like what is being done here is to [ironically] force an equality of outcome on every metric _except_ the one that swings the argument. The very nature of equality of _opportunity_ means to me that it doesn't matter at all that I took time off. Am I qualified? Do I have demonstrable expertise? References? Education? A unique perspective? You may be generally curious about my year off but the idea that it somehow invalidates _any_ of my other qualifications feels silly and limits my opportunity based on external factors which don't impact my ability to do the job. It's just that you don't seem to fit the world view of others so it's suspect. _This_ is the complaint: that a talented professional coming back to the work force loses out not because of ability but because of violating social norms.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      I'm not at all curious about your year off (other than as incidental conversation if you choose to bring it up). I am curious about your experience and competency, both overall and in terms of recency/currency, as I believe both of those are strongly correlated to your projected contributions to my company. A pilot with 5K hours of experience is more experienced (in the pilot job market) than one with 4K. I don't care that you could have had that extra 1K hours if you'd worked an extra year instead of doing something else. I only care whether you do or don't (as it pertains to this dimension of the evaluation).
onemoresoop 8y ago
But we don't want surgery from an overworked surgeon either.
- jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
  I completely agree. In fact the whole residency thing in the medical profession, is an awful, awful, system.

Frondo 8y ago

Surgeons can and do take a year off from their practice, and return to work. I would absolutely be patient #1 after some surgeon's sabbatical. I also find it deeply depressing that "a person should be able to take a year off work" is now utopian, fluffy unicorn ideology on a forum for forward-thinking technologists.

davrosthedalek 8y ago
Oh, you totally should be able to take off for a year. The same way you can elect not to go to university. Or look in the laser. You just have to live with the consequences. And in many, many professions, a year or so out of practice means that you are measurably worse. Maybe (but likely) worse than before you left, but almost certainly worse than you could be if you would have used that year to get better at what ever you do.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  Are you still going to be worse after a month of work? Are companies that short-term-oriented?
  - jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
    >Are companies that short-term-oriented? Publicly traded ones. There are only 3 months between Earnings Reports.
  - davrosthedalek 8y ago
    Depends really on what work you are doing. Garbage collector, probably no. Helicopter pilot, probably yes.
- aswanson 8y ago
  In software, a year off might mean you get better. If you have more time to work on your own ideas and explore new paradigms instead of cranking out fizzbuzz all day in between commutes, you can become better.
  - davrosthedalek 8y ago
    Totally. Same goes for sabbaticals in science, for example. It really depends on what you are doing in that year though, and how fast your particular field is moving.
dpark 8y ago
The year off isn’t the fluffy unicorn bit. The fluffy unicorn bit is that you think your choices should have no consequences. If you want to take a decade off work, you certainly have that right. But that doesn’t mean employers should pretend that you have an extra decade of experience, just as your choice to forgo a degree doesn’t mean an employer should pretend you earned a doctorate.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  Ah so discriminating against the posh kid who took a "Gap Yah" is ok now. Presumably we should discriminate against all 4 year graduates as they took an extra year to graduate's who do it in 3.
  - dpark 8y ago
    > Presumably we should discriminate against all 4 year graduates as they took an extra year to graduate's who do it in 3. We do. All things being equal, the person hired a year earlier will have higher pay. As they should, since they have an extra year of experience. Assuming equal candidates, the one with more experience will do a better job (second system syndrome notwithstanding).
    - Frondo 8y ago
      What's absolutely amazing to me is that one of the biggest complaints about unions you see is how pay is tied to seniority; the worker who's there the longest gets the most pay, not the one who "deserves" the most pay. And here people are arguing the exact same thing!!! One extra year of time working means higher pay! That's exactly what a lot of union pay scales are structured like, but that's evil unions; this is somehow just right???
      - dpark 8y ago
        You’re misunderstanding. Rewarding for merit will bias towards higher pay for experience. More experience will in general lead to higher merit and thus higher pay. Also HN, despite the meme, is not a hive mind. Some here are in support of unions and don’t consider them evil.
jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
> I also find it deeply depressing that "a person should be able to take a year off work" is now utopian, fluffy unicorn ideology on a forum for forward-thinking technologists. There is nothing stopping you from taking a year off work. Go right head. You won't get paid, and they won't hold your job, and you will have gap to explain when you are interviewing for a position when you want to return. Don't expect the world to bend backwards and ignore realities so you can take a year off.

BeetleB 8y ago

>Do YOU want to have surgery from a surgeon that hasn't performed in year? There can be something like a transition period. The world is not binary. Surgeons get sick. They get injured. They take time off. Just like everyone else. The reason they took time off should not be relevant.

sokoloff 8y ago
The reason should not be relevant. The fact that they did could be (in some cases), IMO.
- Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
  Many people here have echoed the fears and complaints I've heard on this topic. Simply that somehow taking parental leave at all puts you at a disadvantage. Or puts you in a position where you have to explain yourself. I feel like what is being done here is to [ironically] force an equality of outcome on every metric _except_ the one that swings the argument. The very nature of equality of _opportunity_ means to me that it doesn't matter at all that I took time off. Am I qualified? Do I have demonstrable expertise? References? Education? A unique perspective? You may be generally curious about my year off but the idea that it somehow invalidates _any_ of my other qualifications feels silly and limits my opportunity based on external factors which don't impact my ability to do the job. It's just that you don't seem to fit the world view of others so it's suspect. _This_ is the complaint: that a talented professional coming back to the work force loses out not because of ability but because of violating social norms.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    I'm not at all curious about your year off (other than as incidental conversation if you choose to bring it up). I am curious about your experience and competency, both overall and in terms of recency/currency, as I believe both of those are strongly correlated to your projected contributions to my company. A pilot with 5K hours of experience is more experienced (in the pilot job market) than one with 4K. I don't care that you could have had that extra 1K hours if you'd worked an extra year instead of doing something else. I only care whether you do or don't (as it pertains to this dimension of the evaluation).

onemoresoop 8y ago

But we don't want surgery from an overworked surgeon either.

jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
I completely agree. In fact the whole residency thing in the medical profession, is an awful, awful, system.