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I don’t think he mentioned it, but the easy way for Apple to grow to a $2T company is to get my household, a typical locked-in Apple household with an iPad or i

I don’t think he mentioned it, but the easy way for Apple to grow to a $2T company is to get my household, a typical locked-in Apple household with an iPad or iPhone for every person and a computer for each adult and an AppleTV at every TV, to start paying for ever more services through those Apple devices. TV service. Ubiquitous internet service. Financial services like payments but grow into banking. manage all my regularly scheduled bills like utilities, rent or mortgages. I would love for a trusted intermediary to handle these things. I was recently taken aback by the amount of money I was paying for high-quality subscriptions “oh my god, I’ve paid $20/month for the last 12 months to subscribe to high quality streaming to Phish concerts via their app?!?” I signed up for it thinking I would only do it for a month. I forgot. I spent $240 on Phish audio, more than I spent on my Apple Watch. Apple’s real social network could be just getting started. Imagine if those “luxury” expenses were intermixed with a dozen other large, more legitimate bills? Apple could be processing $1000s a month per household, taking a hefty fee from some of them. And then launch a loyalty program :). If I had to guess, I’d say this comment resembles Buffet’s view of Apple’s opportunity.

ygra 8y ago
> And manage all my regularly scheduled bills like utilities, rent or mortgages. I would love for a trusted intermediary to handle these things. Isn't that far easier to set up scheduled payments with your bank or allow the company to use direct withdrawal?
- ethagknight 8y ago
  For the payment itself, yes, if you want it all automated. Automated payments are to the biller’s enormous benefit (ahem cable company...) To manage or keep un-automated or see reports or change features, it currently requires a separate app, login, UI, or other legacy portals. It’s annoying. Apple could streamline it, and remove a layer of complexity while taking over the transaction (and gain data gold mines)
  - xfitm3 8y ago
    I rarely make changes so I don’t see the value here. I have every recurring bill setup to auto pay. If I had to manually pay bills I would go insane.
    - ryandrake 8y ago
      Interesting. I choose to manually pay all my bills, and avoid monthly subscriptions for things. This allows me to see billing shenanigans as soon as companies attempt them, rather than months later. Comcast just recently raised my bill by 15% or so because that's what they do, and I was able to avoid it before paying it. With auto-pay I would have just kept paying the higher rate. I also try to manually pay everything to avoid forgetting subscriptions, like OP mentioned.
      - alsetmusic 8y ago
        > Comcast just recently raised my bill by 15% or so because that's what they do, and I was able to avoid it before paying it. With auto-pay I would have just kept paying the higher rate. I also disabled autopay for similar reasons. This helped me notice that Comcast had started charging me for a TV tuner that I didn’t have (I don’t have their television service, only internet). It took three months and multiple calls to get that resolved and credited. I might not have remembered to follow-up if I didn’t have to look at the bill each time.
        nojvek 8y ago
        Frontier is the same. They keep on increasing prices when their speeds keep on getting worse. That’s what we have in America. Internet run by a couple of mafia like companies who have the government wrapped under their fingers. Yes I would very much love if Apple threw a couple of billions and shook the internet pipes.
      - xfitm3 8y ago
        I review my expenses quarterly and adjust my budget as needed. I catch those types of shenanigans there - most of the time.
yuy910616 8y ago
I think an Apple (read integrated, user friendly) solution to internet of things could be more imminent, and interesting. One of the draw back of the current solution for IoT is connecting different eco systems, such as GE light bulb to Amazon Echo. If apple have a solution that is elegant and 'just works', i'd be interested in that
- macintux 8y ago
  Apple already has a smart home initiative; what am I missing? There were early complaints that Apple was making too many demands on manufacturers with regards to security, but given the utter shitshow that is IoT these days, it sure seems like it was a good idea.
  - yuy910616 8y ago
    No missing anything :) Didn't know they already have one.
    - macintux 8y ago
      I'm sure there's another level they could take it to. Here's HomeKit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomeKit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomeKit
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    You're missing a range of Apple smart home products - and so is everyone else, because they don't exist. Apple could have killed it in this space. The development costs would have been relatively low, and there was a wide-open goal with the possibility of much-improved security and privacy, high quality industrial design, AI, and yet more links to Apple devices, as well as providing a home network foundation for future products such as health monitoring devices. Instead Apple handed the market over to 3rd parties and... not much of interest happened with HomeKit.
hoaw 8y ago
As far as I understand Apple's current business model is heavily geared towards dominating a segment and charging handsomely for it. If Apple were to go for 'quantity' their margin, at least per sale, would suffer and they would probably run into antitrust issues. I think this is a missed opportunity for Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Mozilla and maybe even Netflix and Facebook. Not necessarily for Apple.
sametmax 8y ago
Great idea. This way when this powerful gigantic entity will screw up, or worse, misbehave, all your life will be destroyed at once. It's very efficient !
- ethagknight 8y ago
  Sarcastic comments are unsubstantive and generally not appreciated on hacker news. I do concede your point that greater centralization isn’t really in the consumer’s best interest. I stand by my point that it could be on apple’s radar for ways to continue growth, in its best interest. My parent comment is not a consumer wishlist but that of a (rookie) investor.
MisterTea 8y ago
Good little cow. keep mooing and chew your cud. pay no attention to the chute you're walking towards...
moolcool 8y ago
>Imagine if those “luxury” expenses were intermixed with a dozen other large, more legitimate bills? Apple could be processing $1000s a month per household, taking a hefty fee from some of them. That's what we need-- another middle man taking a even more off the top of every transaction.
- ethagknight 8y ago
  Ha, I'm speaking from Apple's perspective thinking through how they could double in value. I don't think the current method of bills coming from everywhere with different payment requirements is all that great. If this new "middleman" provides value and protects me, then what's the problem? I wouldn't see direct integration with my apple device as a middleman but an endpoint. Furthermore, there are loads of whitelabelled middlemen in the current process, you just see it in one big bottom line number for each bill and may appear as service charges, admin fees, billing services, compliance, etc. Apple moving into this space kinda removes middlemen, reducing the number of touches between the biller and your wallet.
  - roymurdock 8y ago
    I don't fully understand your problem, or how Apple could provide a solution. Are you saying that the current system of having a checking/saving account, and setting up autopay/direct payments for your various bills (mortgage, utilities, gym, etc.) is cumbersome? And proposing that instead, Apple should add up all your bills and provide you with a $amount to pay each month, and you just pay that amount into your Apple checking account? The example you gave above, overpaying for a music subscription because it didn't auto cancel, wouldn't be solved by this system, Apple would just add it into the bill and if anything, reduce your visibility into what you're paying for and why. I'm not sure how they would know to "protect" you from a music streaming service you signed up for. The method that works best for me is to use an app like Personal Capital/Mint to centralize financial info and get notifications on what I'm paying for, and when. It also summarizes what buckets you are spending into, so if any look odd you can dig down and investigate further.
    - 8y ago
basch 8y ago
I completely agree. Apple needs to move into full banking. Mint, 401k Management, Bill Pay, TAXES, Yahoo Finance, Student Loans, the old Manilla (collecting ALL aggregate statements in one place forever.) They should buy Schwab, Envestnet, Personal Capital, YNAB, and Motif and slap a Robinhood/Monzo coat of paint on a new frontend. They could go from Apple Pay to Best Banking Experience in the World, in no time. As far as "Services" go apple competes in Music, Health, Maps, Messaging. They dont compete in Backups, Photos, or Banking. I would love for Apple/Google/Facebook to move aggressively against Intuit/TurboTax, if for no other reason to create a more competitive environment. Imagine Apple getting into LENDING. They have cash up the wazoo. They should be able to determine who is most likely to pay back a loan, and come up with pretty accurate interest rates. And at that point, why is apple just a personal bank, and not a corporate bank as well, fully taking on QuickBooks. And if they dont want to get into business logic programming, become a Financial version of AWS and offer finanance, accounting, and banking APIs as a service, for App Developers to build on top of, like a AWS/Firebase/Pulse meets Chase/WF/Intuit. I find it VERY odd that none of the big players (Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Samsung, Sony, Facebook, Apple) have done anything more than a Wallet and Money Transfer. Why is Mint/Personal Capital/YNAB not on everyones radar. Why are TurboTax and 401K management not being looked into by ANY of the major tech companys? So many people have a bunch of accounts that need individual management. Make my life easier Apple/Microsoft/Google/Facebook. Ive outlined this idea before. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12868316 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12868316 I ALSO think SOMEONE should come up with a "financial ID." Instead of signing into banking sites with "Facebook" or "Google" each one has its own unique login, password, security questions, validation. One Financial ID, isolated from Social IDs could drastically cut down on phishing, hacking etc. Smaller institutions would not be running their own Identity/Trust silos in isolation. Resources to build trust over who is who could be shared. Intuit has something like that for their services, but it really needs to be a Chase/WF/BoA effort like Zelle. "Sign in with your Pony ID"
- piokoch 8y ago
  I think becoming a bank was a big hassle and being a bank is less profitable than core Microsoft or Google activity. Having said that, PSD2 regulation in EU might change all of this - any institution will be able to do banking operations on behalf of the customer. There are some requirement too, but the bar is significantly lowered.
nickthemagicman 8y ago
I used to have this exact same problem. I'm currently using privacy.com to manage all of those little one off subscriptions. It's basically unlimited virtual credit cards. You can pause them, you can add limits to spending, you can delete them if youre done with the service and the service won't be able to charge your bank account. I just discovered it and have been using it for a few months and it's awesome. I highly recommended for internet purchases.
- xeromal 8y ago
  I had that with Simple but they went out of business early this year. :(
  - nickthemagicman 8y ago
    Yeah I didn't realize Simple did that. That's awesome. I'm enjoying the hell out of it currently with these guys.
jbob2000 8y ago
This would only work in an unregulated market. Thankfully, most of the countries around the world do not take kindly to one company owning entire households and will take steps to prevent this from happening.
72deluxe 8y ago
Do you have sufficient disposable income that you don't notice a $20 bill coming either out of your bank or credit card for an entire year? I would wager that you need to pay more attention to your finances. As the old addage says, "look after the pennies, and the pounds will look after themselves"!
- chipotle_coyote 8y ago
  While that sounds crazy on the surface, it really isn't. For one thing, your necessary household expenses (rent, food, utilities, etc.) don't generally scale linearly with your individual income; your expenses don't double when your income does. For another, absolute value, not just percentage, matters. Spending an extra $240 a year matters a lot if you're making $25K; if you're making $150K, it matters, well, less. I always heard adages and advice about "watching pennies." In practice, though, I've found that I'm far better off looking after the pounds and not worrying about the pennies: that is to say, set up savings targets that get treated like necessary expenses, and to not worry too much whether lunch is $7 or $12.
- ethagknight 8y ago
  I totally agree, and usually do. My wife was not happy about spending $240 on Phish :) My point is that it is very complicated to track everything. My household of 5, my businesses, my recreation. I guess the way to wrap up my gp comment is that Apple could move into this space becoming a major value driver to consumers.
  - 72deluxe 8y ago
    I can imagine it is very hard tracking that! Is there a way you could split each area to a separate account/card so that you can spot odd spendings? eg. recreation on one, business on another, food on another, fuel on another, general household/mortgage/insurance on another, and then another for miscellaneous ? Sounds like an opportunity for an app of sorts....
tmaly 8y ago
As a parent, I would like to see a better offering of cloud backup for photos and videos. The space on newer IPhones keeps growing with each release. I use something like backblaze on a central computer at $5 a month for unlimited backup. I would like to see Apple compete a little more on this end.
- skj 8y ago
  (disclosure: I am a Google SWE, but I don't work on photos) Google Photos does full res backup - easy to get working with android - not sure about other devices or non-phones.
jarsin 8y ago
This is why I have been calling for them to buy SNE. It has everything AAPL needs...all the movie content, music content, Playstation, High Scale TV's, best mobile camera components, etc, etc. Mr BuyBack Cook could have bought Sony 3 times over already.
- ksec 8y ago
  This, I don't understand why Apple hasn't brought SNE as well. In the pre Apple TV original production era it makes less sense, now literally everything SNE has could argument AAPL. I wonder if Steve Jobs were alive would he have bought it, he loves SNE!
bandushrew 8y ago
I wonder how many apple households locked in are actually locked in. We have 2 apple computers, and apple tv, 4 android tablets and three windows computers, 1 iphone, 2 android phones. I dont think any of my friends are apple-only, even those who love apple. Is an apple-only household really that common?
- ethagknight 8y ago
  No idea, but my comment is focused on how Apple could deepen the moat and find evermore cashflow. You point out two distinct aspects, how locked in is a locked in household, and how many households are actually Apple only. I bet it’s rare to be all-Apple households, but Apple should be finding ever more reasons for a household’s next purchase to be an Apple related one. Since my locked-in household still only buys so many devices per person per 2-3 years, Growing services is another way to do it. As far as degree of lock in, I’d say not much, I think it could all collapse with a few major missteps. There’s an enormous amount of pressure on the board of directors and C suite to maintain the expected quality.

ygra 8y ago

> And manage all my regularly scheduled bills like utilities, rent or mortgages. I would love for a trusted intermediary to handle these things. Isn't that far easier to set up scheduled payments with your bank or allow the company to use direct withdrawal?

ethagknight 8y ago
For the payment itself, yes, if you want it all automated. Automated payments are to the biller’s enormous benefit (ahem cable company...) To manage or keep un-automated or see reports or change features, it currently requires a separate app, login, UI, or other legacy portals. It’s annoying. Apple could streamline it, and remove a layer of complexity while taking over the transaction (and gain data gold mines)
- xfitm3 8y ago
  I rarely make changes so I don’t see the value here. I have every recurring bill setup to auto pay. If I had to manually pay bills I would go insane.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    Interesting. I choose to manually pay all my bills, and avoid monthly subscriptions for things. This allows me to see billing shenanigans as soon as companies attempt them, rather than months later. Comcast just recently raised my bill by 15% or so because that's what they do, and I was able to avoid it before paying it. With auto-pay I would have just kept paying the higher rate. I also try to manually pay everything to avoid forgetting subscriptions, like OP mentioned.
    - alsetmusic 8y ago
      > Comcast just recently raised my bill by 15% or so because that's what they do, and I was able to avoid it before paying it. With auto-pay I would have just kept paying the higher rate. I also disabled autopay for similar reasons. This helped me notice that Comcast had started charging me for a TV tuner that I didn’t have (I don’t have their television service, only internet). It took three months and multiple calls to get that resolved and credited. I might not have remembered to follow-up if I didn’t have to look at the bill each time.
      - nojvek 8y ago
        Frontier is the same. They keep on increasing prices when their speeds keep on getting worse. That’s what we have in America. Internet run by a couple of mafia like companies who have the government wrapped under their fingers. Yes I would very much love if Apple threw a couple of billions and shook the internet pipes.
    - xfitm3 8y ago
      I review my expenses quarterly and adjust my budget as needed. I catch those types of shenanigans there - most of the time.

yuy910616 8y ago

I think an Apple (read integrated, user friendly) solution to internet of things could be more imminent, and interesting. One of the draw back of the current solution for IoT is connecting different eco systems, such as GE light bulb to Amazon Echo. If apple have a solution that is elegant and 'just works', i'd be interested in that

macintux 8y ago
Apple already has a smart home initiative; what am I missing? There were early complaints that Apple was making too many demands on manufacturers with regards to security, but given the utter shitshow that is IoT these days, it sure seems like it was a good idea.
- yuy910616 8y ago
  No missing anything :) Didn't know they already have one.
  - macintux 8y ago
    I'm sure there's another level they could take it to. Here's HomeKit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomeKit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomeKit
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  You're missing a range of Apple smart home products - and so is everyone else, because they don't exist. Apple could have killed it in this space. The development costs would have been relatively low, and there was a wide-open goal with the possibility of much-improved security and privacy, high quality industrial design, AI, and yet more links to Apple devices, as well as providing a home network foundation for future products such as health monitoring devices. Instead Apple handed the market over to 3rd parties and... not much of interest happened with HomeKit.

hoaw 8y ago

As far as I understand Apple's current business model is heavily geared towards dominating a segment and charging handsomely for it. If Apple were to go for 'quantity' their margin, at least per sale, would suffer and they would probably run into antitrust issues. I think this is a missed opportunity for Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Mozilla and maybe even Netflix and Facebook. Not necessarily for Apple.

sametmax 8y ago

Great idea. This way when this powerful gigantic entity will screw up, or worse, misbehave, all your life will be destroyed at once. It's very efficient !

ethagknight 8y ago
Sarcastic comments are unsubstantive and generally not appreciated on hacker news. I do concede your point that greater centralization isn’t really in the consumer’s best interest. I stand by my point that it could be on apple’s radar for ways to continue growth, in its best interest. My parent comment is not a consumer wishlist but that of a (rookie) investor.

MisterTea 8y ago

Good little cow. keep mooing and chew your cud. pay no attention to the chute you're walking towards...

moolcool 8y ago

>Imagine if those “luxury” expenses were intermixed with a dozen other large, more legitimate bills? Apple could be processing $1000s a month per household, taking a hefty fee from some of them. That's what we need-- another middle man taking a even more off the top of every transaction.

ethagknight 8y ago
Ha, I'm speaking from Apple's perspective thinking through how they could double in value. I don't think the current method of bills coming from everywhere with different payment requirements is all that great. If this new "middleman" provides value and protects me, then what's the problem? I wouldn't see direct integration with my apple device as a middleman but an endpoint. Furthermore, there are loads of whitelabelled middlemen in the current process, you just see it in one big bottom line number for each bill and may appear as service charges, admin fees, billing services, compliance, etc. Apple moving into this space kinda removes middlemen, reducing the number of touches between the biller and your wallet.
- roymurdock 8y ago
  I don't fully understand your problem, or how Apple could provide a solution. Are you saying that the current system of having a checking/saving account, and setting up autopay/direct payments for your various bills (mortgage, utilities, gym, etc.) is cumbersome? And proposing that instead, Apple should add up all your bills and provide you with a $amount to pay each month, and you just pay that amount into your Apple checking account? The example you gave above, overpaying for a music subscription because it didn't auto cancel, wouldn't be solved by this system, Apple would just add it into the bill and if anything, reduce your visibility into what you're paying for and why. I'm not sure how they would know to "protect" you from a music streaming service you signed up for. The method that works best for me is to use an app like Personal Capital/Mint to centralize financial info and get notifications on what I'm paying for, and when. It also summarizes what buckets you are spending into, so if any look odd you can dig down and investigate further.
  - 8y ago

basch 8y ago

I completely agree. Apple needs to move into full banking. Mint, 401k Management, Bill Pay, TAXES, Yahoo Finance, Student Loans, the old Manilla (collecting ALL aggregate statements in one place forever.) They should buy Schwab, Envestnet, Personal Capital, YNAB, and Motif and slap a Robinhood/Monzo coat of paint on a new frontend. They could go from Apple Pay to Best Banking Experience in the World, in no time. As far as "Services" go apple competes in Music, Health, Maps, Messaging. They dont compete in Backups, Photos, or Banking. I would love for Apple/Google/Facebook to move aggressively against Intuit/TurboTax, if for no other reason to create a more competitive environment. Imagine Apple getting into LENDING. They have cash up the wazoo. They should be able to determine who is most likely to pay back a loan, and come up with pretty accurate interest rates. And at that point, why is apple just a personal bank, and not a corporate bank as well, fully taking on QuickBooks. And if they dont want to get into business logic programming, become a Financial version of AWS and offer finanance, accounting, and banking APIs as a service, for App Developers to build on top of, like a AWS/Firebase/Pulse meets Chase/WF/Intuit. I find it VERY odd that none of the big players (Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Samsung, Sony, Facebook, Apple) have done anything more than a Wallet and Money Transfer. Why is Mint/Personal Capital/YNAB not on everyones radar. Why are TurboTax and 401K management not being looked into by ANY of the major tech companys? So many people have a bunch of accounts that need individual management. Make my life easier Apple/Microsoft/Google/Facebook. Ive outlined this idea before. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12868316 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12868316 I ALSO think SOMEONE should come up with a "financial ID." Instead of signing into banking sites with "Facebook" or "Google" each one has its own unique login, password, security questions, validation. One Financial ID, isolated from Social IDs could drastically cut down on phishing, hacking etc. Smaller institutions would not be running their own Identity/Trust silos in isolation. Resources to build trust over who is who could be shared. Intuit has something like that for their services, but it really needs to be a Chase/WF/BoA effort like Zelle. "Sign in with your Pony ID"

piokoch 8y ago
I think becoming a bank was a big hassle and being a bank is less profitable than core Microsoft or Google activity. Having said that, PSD2 regulation in EU might change all of this - any institution will be able to do banking operations on behalf of the customer. There are some requirement too, but the bar is significantly lowered.

nickthemagicman 8y ago

I used to have this exact same problem. I'm currently using privacy.com to manage all of those little one off subscriptions. It's basically unlimited virtual credit cards. You can pause them, you can add limits to spending, you can delete them if youre done with the service and the service won't be able to charge your bank account. I just discovered it and have been using it for a few months and it's awesome. I highly recommended for internet purchases.

xeromal 8y ago
I had that with Simple but they went out of business early this year. :(
- nickthemagicman 8y ago
  Yeah I didn't realize Simple did that. That's awesome. I'm enjoying the hell out of it currently with these guys.

jbob2000 8y ago

This would only work in an unregulated market. Thankfully, most of the countries around the world do not take kindly to one company owning entire households and will take steps to prevent this from happening.

72deluxe 8y ago

Do you have sufficient disposable income that you don't notice a $20 bill coming either out of your bank or credit card for an entire year? I would wager that you need to pay more attention to your finances. As the old addage says, "look after the pennies, and the pounds will look after themselves"!

chipotle_coyote 8y ago
While that sounds crazy on the surface, it really isn't. For one thing, your necessary household expenses (rent, food, utilities, etc.) don't generally scale linearly with your individual income; your expenses don't double when your income does. For another, absolute value, not just percentage, matters. Spending an extra $240 a year matters a lot if you're making $25K; if you're making $150K, it matters, well, less. I always heard adages and advice about "watching pennies." In practice, though, I've found that I'm far better off looking after the pounds and not worrying about the pennies: that is to say, set up savings targets that get treated like necessary expenses, and to not worry too much whether lunch is $7 or $12.
ethagknight 8y ago
I totally agree, and usually do. My wife was not happy about spending $240 on Phish :) My point is that it is very complicated to track everything. My household of 5, my businesses, my recreation. I guess the way to wrap up my gp comment is that Apple could move into this space becoming a major value driver to consumers.
- 72deluxe 8y ago
  I can imagine it is very hard tracking that! Is there a way you could split each area to a separate account/card so that you can spot odd spendings? eg. recreation on one, business on another, food on another, fuel on another, general household/mortgage/insurance on another, and then another for miscellaneous ? Sounds like an opportunity for an app of sorts....

tmaly 8y ago

As a parent, I would like to see a better offering of cloud backup for photos and videos. The space on newer IPhones keeps growing with each release. I use something like backblaze on a central computer at $5 a month for unlimited backup. I would like to see Apple compete a little more on this end.

skj 8y ago
(disclosure: I am a Google SWE, but I don't work on photos) Google Photos does full res backup - easy to get working with android - not sure about other devices or non-phones.

jarsin 8y ago

This is why I have been calling for them to buy SNE. It has everything AAPL needs...all the movie content, music content, Playstation, High Scale TV's, best mobile camera components, etc, etc. Mr BuyBack Cook could have bought Sony 3 times over already.

ksec 8y ago
This, I don't understand why Apple hasn't brought SNE as well. In the pre Apple TV original production era it makes less sense, now literally everything SNE has could argument AAPL. I wonder if Steve Jobs were alive would he have bought it, he loves SNE!

bandushrew 8y ago

I wonder how many apple households locked in are actually locked in. We have 2 apple computers, and apple tv, 4 android tablets and three windows computers, 1 iphone, 2 android phones. I dont think any of my friends are apple-only, even those who love apple. Is an apple-only household really that common?

ethagknight 8y ago
No idea, but my comment is focused on how Apple could deepen the moat and find evermore cashflow. You point out two distinct aspects, how locked in is a locked in household, and how many households are actually Apple only. I bet it’s rare to be all-Apple households, but Apple should be finding ever more reasons for a household’s next purchase to be an Apple related one. Since my locked-in household still only buys so many devices per person per 2-3 years, Growing services is another way to do it. As far as degree of lock in, I’d say not much, I think it could all collapse with a few major missteps. There’s an enormous amount of pressure on the board of directors and C suite to maintain the expected quality.