13 ms·

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be su

by kace91 8y ago

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

jezze 8y ago
Yeah this is the part I don't see the clear logic in. I mean how much of a persons preferences are biological vs taught/environmental behaviour. I would accept the results straight up if it's all because of biological reasons but to me it's not that clear. Imagine if we brought up women to be amazon warriors, of course they would have different preferences compared to women today no? You often pick a career after what you are good at already.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  It seems pretty obvious to me that gender differences are due to a mix of cultural pressures and biology. Here's a study that indicates some biological origin, for example: https://www.psypost.org/2017/12/study-finds-robust-sex-differences-childrens-toy-preferences-across-range-ages-countries-50488 https://www.psypost.org/2017/12/study-finds-robust-sex-diffe... It weirds me out to find people who believe that these preferences are solely due to cultural pressure. It reeks of ideological blindness to me.
  - vidarh 8y ago
    People who believe this is solely cultural pressure should try having children. While, sure, you can raise children to be much more willing to challenge gender norms, and you can raise them to not hide or be ashamed of where their personal preferences violate cultural gender norms, every parent I've known that have strongly believed it was all cultural have ended up changing their mind after they've tried their hardest to give their kids gender neutral toys and clothes, or a mix of "boys" and "girls" stuff, and found their kids even at toddler stage gravitate to "typical" boys/girls stuff. I think it's great they give their kids the choice and don't judge if they pick stuff that doesn't "conform", and I personally find it very annoying how e.g. clothes stores often draw hard lines between boys and girls stuff even when there's not even a half-plausible reason (no, a minecraft t-shirt for a prepubescent child is not gender specific in any way), but at the same time I also personally saw my son express a very strong preference for or against certain things related to gender identity from he was very little, and if we'd tried to push him to ignore that preference we'd be just as bad as parents who push for conformity.
    - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
      I have no doubt that this is exactly what happens, but I don't think it shows what you intend it to show. Kids pick up the culture around them, and if they are exposed to television or other children, they are going to pick up what they see. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but I don't think it proves anything innate in gender either. Another part of the problem is our language, and the way we think about it. We have a tendency to say "girls prefer this, and boys prefer that" as a short hand for "on average, girls prefer this and boys prefer that". Those two statements are not the same thing at all. Averages don't say anything about how any individual person thinks. This shortcut of language seems to be a big blind spot in people.
      - golemotron 8y ago
        > Kids pick up the culture around them, and if they are exposed to television or other children, they are going to pick up what they see. Even just hours after being born? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163638300000321 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016363830...
      - TulliusCicero 8y ago
        They've shown some strong gender preferences even for babies, though. I find it hard to believe the "well maybe those babies have already had the patriarchy shoved down their throats" crowd.
      - vidarh 8y ago
        You'll see these kind of preferences long before kids have been exposed to much more than their parents, and even if their parents try to hard to avoid it.
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      Right, and you can even see how some standards are more arbitrary than others. For example, our son loved pink until around when he was 3 or 4, he started hearing from the daycare he went to that pink was for girls.
js8 8y ago
I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my preferences, what does it matter what is the reason for these preferences? What does it matter, how did I acquire my tastes? They are MY tastes.
- Jweb_Guru 8y ago
  Because in one case, things "must" be this way and there is no reason for introspection--given exactly equal opportunities, both groups would choose the same thing they are already choosing. In the other, that's not the case at all, and it may be necessary to (for example) pass legal reforms in an effort to make sure that both groups actually are free to choose.
  - js8 8y ago
    I am not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you give an example, perhaps? In particular, can you give an illustrative example which explains the difference between "free to choose" and "actually free to choose"?
    - Joe-Z 8y ago
      I have an anecdote which I found quite interesting: Last week I got to meet my cousin’s daughter for the first time. It was a family dinner and after everyone had eaten she pulled out her barbie dolls to play with. Since I‘ve been on HN for a few years now and this is not the first time I came across this topic I asked my cousin: Why does your daughter play with barbies? Did she choose the barbie doll or where they given to her? My cousin, confused at first (because remember people: Most people don‘t really care that much about this stuff), answered: I think she chose herself, or maybe grandma gave one to her first. So this could be it: The little girl might be free to choose as far as her mom is concerned, but is she _actually_ free to choose because she got influenced by her grandma first? Who‘s to say?
grenoire 8y ago
Although those factors in themselves are not accounted for, the cultural differences in cross-country effects are extensively documented. The supplement material is available for free at http://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2018/10/17/362.6412.eaas9899.DC1 http://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2018/10/17/362.6...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
thinkingemote 8y ago
The study looked at differences in personalities via interviews of men and women, not at the types of choices they made. So, for example, in more equal countries there is a higher gender difference in trust and altruism than in less equal countries. For the countries, they categorised them on a few factors: "we created a Gender Equality Index as a joint measure of four indices of gender equality: (i) the Global Gender Gap Index of the World Economic Forum (WEF), (ii) the Gender Equality Index of the United Nations (UN), (iii) the ratio of female to male labor force participation rates, and (iv) the number of years since women’s suffrage."
DoreenMichele 8y ago
I'm fairly visual-spatial. I now make little websites and take photos and play SimCity. But when I was a homemaker, this largely got expressed as an interest in clothes and household decor because those were basically the avenues open to me. It wasn't particularly fulfilling. I thought dressing well and being pretty would get me a happy marriage. It didn't. I thought having a nice home would get me a satisfactory social life. It didn't. I liked being a mom and I liked being home with my kids, but a lot of the rest of it wasn't really what I expected or wanted. I spent a lot of years pursuing some mirage where I thought X would get me Y and being disappointed. I also spent those years sorting out why my life didn't work and resolving a lot of issues. There are ways in which I'm very stereotypically feminine and have a history of reading to others as very feminine. But I actually don't enjoy cooking, never learned to sew or crochet or similar, etc. I've worked hard at sorting this for myself so my life can stop making me crazy. It tends to be a lot of drama when I try to comment on it. No matter how carefully I say "X research resonated with me personally and was useful for me personally in making my life work better," inevitably other people will jump up and say (in essence) "Well, that isn't true for me and you are evil and bad and wrong for saying this is true for women generally and you don't represent me!!!!!" type nonsense. It's insane amounts of drama that is essentially unrelated to whatever I actually said and it makes it nigh impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion. I think some of what I've learned over the years does generalize. But I am increasingly reluctant to try to say anything about such because that's even more drama than saying "X made sense for me as an individual trying to sort my own life." Based on those experiences, the odds seem long against there ever being research that really seriously sorts this for "the world."
- andai 8y ago
  You do sound fairly exceptional. Would you rather not be?
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    I tend to feel about my life like that comment about democracy: It's the worst thing ever... Except for all the rest. Also: Hell is other people.
reubeniv 8y ago
I don't think it should need to adjust as this is what it's trying to observe, it's specifically taking into account the levels of social equality. If cultural 'pushing' played a bigger part, you'd expect the differences to be greater in less egalitarian countries, but instead we see the opposite.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
If someone legitimately has a preference then what does it matter whether their preferences are the result of "cultural norms" or personal taste?
- amanaplanacanal 8y ago
  I think one of the big western values is that people should have equality of opportunity. If cultural norms direct people into specific, unequal paths in life, is that really equality of opportunity?

by kace91 8y ago

jezze 8y ago

Yeah this is the part I don't see the clear logic in. I mean how much of a persons preferences are biological vs taught/environmental behaviour. I would accept the results straight up if it's all because of biological reasons but to me it's not that clear. Imagine if we brought up women to be amazon warriors, of course they would have different preferences compared to women today no? You often pick a career after what you are good at already.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
It seems pretty obvious to me that gender differences are due to a mix of cultural pressures and biology. Here's a study that indicates some biological origin, for example: https://www.psypost.org/2017/12/study-finds-robust-sex-differences-childrens-toy-preferences-across-range-ages-countries-50488 https://www.psypost.org/2017/12/study-finds-robust-sex-diffe... It weirds me out to find people who believe that these preferences are solely due to cultural pressure. It reeks of ideological blindness to me.
- vidarh 8y ago
  People who believe this is solely cultural pressure should try having children. While, sure, you can raise children to be much more willing to challenge gender norms, and you can raise them to not hide or be ashamed of where their personal preferences violate cultural gender norms, every parent I've known that have strongly believed it was all cultural have ended up changing their mind after they've tried their hardest to give their kids gender neutral toys and clothes, or a mix of "boys" and "girls" stuff, and found their kids even at toddler stage gravitate to "typical" boys/girls stuff. I think it's great they give their kids the choice and don't judge if they pick stuff that doesn't "conform", and I personally find it very annoying how e.g. clothes stores often draw hard lines between boys and girls stuff even when there's not even a half-plausible reason (no, a minecraft t-shirt for a prepubescent child is not gender specific in any way), but at the same time I also personally saw my son express a very strong preference for or against certain things related to gender identity from he was very little, and if we'd tried to push him to ignore that preference we'd be just as bad as parents who push for conformity.
  - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
    I have no doubt that this is exactly what happens, but I don't think it shows what you intend it to show. Kids pick up the culture around them, and if they are exposed to television or other children, they are going to pick up what they see. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but I don't think it proves anything innate in gender either. Another part of the problem is our language, and the way we think about it. We have a tendency to say "girls prefer this, and boys prefer that" as a short hand for "on average, girls prefer this and boys prefer that". Those two statements are not the same thing at all. Averages don't say anything about how any individual person thinks. This shortcut of language seems to be a big blind spot in people.
    - golemotron 8y ago
      > Kids pick up the culture around them, and if they are exposed to television or other children, they are going to pick up what they see. Even just hours after being born? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163638300000321 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016363830...
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      They've shown some strong gender preferences even for babies, though. I find it hard to believe the "well maybe those babies have already had the patriarchy shoved down their throats" crowd.
    - vidarh 8y ago
      You'll see these kind of preferences long before kids have been exposed to much more than their parents, and even if their parents try to hard to avoid it.
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    Right, and you can even see how some standards are more arbitrary than others. For example, our son loved pink until around when he was 3 or 4, he started hearing from the daycare he went to that pink was for girls.

js8 8y ago

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my preferences, what does it matter what is the reason for these preferences? What does it matter, how did I acquire my tastes? They are MY tastes.

Jweb_Guru 8y ago
Because in one case, things "must" be this way and there is no reason for introspection--given exactly equal opportunities, both groups would choose the same thing they are already choosing. In the other, that's not the case at all, and it may be necessary to (for example) pass legal reforms in an effort to make sure that both groups actually are free to choose.
- js8 8y ago
  I am not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you give an example, perhaps? In particular, can you give an illustrative example which explains the difference between "free to choose" and "actually free to choose"?
  - Joe-Z 8y ago
    I have an anecdote which I found quite interesting: Last week I got to meet my cousin’s daughter for the first time. It was a family dinner and after everyone had eaten she pulled out her barbie dolls to play with. Since I‘ve been on HN for a few years now and this is not the first time I came across this topic I asked my cousin: Why does your daughter play with barbies? Did she choose the barbie doll or where they given to her? My cousin, confused at first (because remember people: Most people don‘t really care that much about this stuff), answered: I think she chose herself, or maybe grandma gave one to her first. So this could be it: The little girl might be free to choose as far as her mom is concerned, but is she _actually_ free to choose because she got influenced by her grandma first? Who‘s to say?

grenoire 8y ago

Although those factors in themselves are not accounted for, the cultural differences in cross-country effects are extensively documented. The supplement material is available for free at http://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2018/10/17/362.6412.eaas9899.DC1 http://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2018/10/17/362.6...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

thinkingemote 8y ago

The study looked at differences in personalities via interviews of men and women, not at the types of choices they made. So, for example, in more equal countries there is a higher gender difference in trust and altruism than in less equal countries. For the countries, they categorised them on a few factors: "we created a Gender Equality Index as a joint measure of four indices of gender equality: (i) the Global Gender Gap Index of the World Economic Forum (WEF), (ii) the Gender Equality Index of the United Nations (UN), (iii) the ratio of female to male labor force participation rates, and (iv) the number of years since women’s suffrage."

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I'm fairly visual-spatial. I now make little websites and take photos and play SimCity. But when I was a homemaker, this largely got expressed as an interest in clothes and household decor because those were basically the avenues open to me. It wasn't particularly fulfilling. I thought dressing well and being pretty would get me a happy marriage. It didn't. I thought having a nice home would get me a satisfactory social life. It didn't. I liked being a mom and I liked being home with my kids, but a lot of the rest of it wasn't really what I expected or wanted. I spent a lot of years pursuing some mirage where I thought X would get me Y and being disappointed. I also spent those years sorting out why my life didn't work and resolving a lot of issues. There are ways in which I'm very stereotypically feminine and have a history of reading to others as very feminine. But I actually don't enjoy cooking, never learned to sew or crochet or similar, etc. I've worked hard at sorting this for myself so my life can stop making me crazy. It tends to be a lot of drama when I try to comment on it. No matter how carefully I say "X research resonated with me personally and was useful for me personally in making my life work better," inevitably other people will jump up and say (in essence) "Well, that isn't true for me and you are evil and bad and wrong for saying this is true for women generally and you don't represent me!!!!!" type nonsense. It's insane amounts of drama that is essentially unrelated to whatever I actually said and it makes it nigh impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion. I think some of what I've learned over the years does generalize. But I am increasingly reluctant to try to say anything about such because that's even more drama than saying "X made sense for me as an individual trying to sort my own life." Based on those experiences, the odds seem long against there ever being research that really seriously sorts this for "the world."

andai 8y ago
You do sound fairly exceptional. Would you rather not be?
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  I tend to feel about my life like that comment about democracy: It's the worst thing ever... Except for all the rest. Also: Hell is other people.

reubeniv 8y ago

I don't think it should need to adjust as this is what it's trying to observe, it's specifically taking into account the levels of social equality. If cultural 'pushing' played a bigger part, you'd expect the differences to be greater in less egalitarian countries, but instead we see the opposite.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

If someone legitimately has a preference then what does it matter whether their preferences are the result of "cultural norms" or personal taste?

amanaplanacanal 8y ago
I think one of the big western values is that people should have equality of opportunity. If cultural norms direct people into specific, unequal paths in life, is that really equality of opportunity?