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British intelligence hacked Belgacom then sabotaged investigation

332 points by kostaddin 8y ago

cal97g 8y ago
whats the new story here? As this said it was confirmed by wikileaks.. years ago.
sbhn 8y ago
‘But when the Belgian investigators approached their British counterparts with a request for help in identifying who was behind the three companies, GCHQ declined to cooperate, claiming that cooperation would “bring the sovereignty, security and public order [of the UK] into jeopardy”.’ OMG we’re doomed
- snowwindwaves 8y ago
  > the investigation revealed that spy software had been installed remotely on Belgacom computers from three IP addresses in the UK thought to be registered to front companies. Installed spyware from government offices without bothering to proxy through any other systems?
- mmjaa 8y ago
  When "the sovereignty, security and public order" is defined by people whose entire lives are based on the ability to keep secrets, use knowledge gained illegally, secretly, and ensure that nobody else has the ability to usurp their position .. yes, we are indeed doomed. Its long since past the point where the 5-eyes nations should suffer repercussions for their heinous imperialist actions. One can only hope that Brexit will bring the UK into sufficiently subservient stance that these crimes will no longer be accepted by the EU.
  - tssva 8y ago
    Your belief that the other EU countries don't engage in similar activities against their allies within and outside the EU is naive at best. Germany and France in particular have large intelligence organizations which are known to have been used against allies as well as enemies.
    - mmjaa 8y ago
      Whining that "all the other kids are doing it" is only relevant when there is actually evidence on the table that it is at the same level of magnitude as when 'your team' does it. So far, there is nothing like the heinous 5-eyes super-surveillance state, anywhere else in the world. The 5-eyes have granted themselves mastery over the rest of the world - and this fact only serves as further justification that other states should be doing it now. This is the slippery slope: why is it okay for the UK to do it, but not Germany, Italy and France? The answer: its not okay for anyone to do it. Stop justifying it.
      - tssva 8y ago
        I didn't express any sentiment that it was ok for the UK to do it or in anyway justify it. I just pointed out the naivety of thinking the other EU states don't do it.
pleasecalllater 8y ago
In normal world this should be equal to declaring a war, right?
- thrower123 8y ago
  Thank goodness it is not likely to trigger war. Flanders' fields have seen enough blood.
  - IMTDb 8y ago
    EDIT: did not know about the english poem "In flanders fields". http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fields.htm http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fiel...
    - thrower123 8y ago
      Flanders is part of Belgium. In English there's a tradition of talking about this area as Flanders, going back to at least Marlborough, if not the Hundred Years War
      - IMTDb 8y ago
        True. But in this event, the potential would very likely impact all of Belgium, so there is no reason to differentiate flanders from the rest of the country. On top of that, both part of the country has suffered similarly throughout history of wars and bombs, so again there is no need for differentiation here. There are very good reasons to differentiate the north and south part of the country on a lot of subjects since they are so different. This is not one of those reasons. Defense is a federal issue and there is no reasons to make it regional.
        thrower123 8y ago
        I'm really not trying to imply anything at all here. I'm just referencing this region's history of being a crossroads of empire and the common idiom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields
Someone1234 8y ago
The real mystery is this: > However the Belgian government and security services were kept in the dark, something which the federal prosecutor’s report described as “exceptional between EU states, and something that could lead to a diplomatic incident.” If this operation was ONLY meant to target a subsidiary working mostly inside the middle-east with legitimate terrorist ties, I'd imagine they would have included the Belgians. One could speculate that GCHQ decided to go it alone, just to see "what else we can get" in terms of potentially spying within Belgian/on Belgian's citizens. It isn't even the first time GCHQ has been caught spying on other European countries[0]. But I guess the City of London needs to get their financial "tips" somehow... [0] http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/gchq-and-nsa-targeted-private-german-companies-a-961444.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/gchq-and-nsa-tar...
- johnchristopher 8y ago
  > If this operation was ONLY meant to target a subsidiary working mostly inside the middle-east with legitimate terrorist ties, I'd imagine they would have included the Belgians. I am from Belgium and quite frankly I'd understand why GCHQ would want to bypass our own security services. Understaffed, underpaid and under skilled. Now that's just the pragmatic in me, the citizen in me is really concerned about that case (and why the UK is allowed to go on pulling such stunts considering that kind of things has been going on since WW2).
  - swarnie_ 8y ago
    I'm from the UK, GCHQ are criminally underfunded and pay 20-30% below market rate for similar skills in the private sector. Might be common across a lot of intel agencies
    - 7000skeletons 8y ago
      There's some rumblings about this improving, but as with a lot of things in the UK the current government is walking a tightrope in terms of funding (they've got to keep a lot of special interest groups on-side in order to pass any legislation). They'd rather go for high-profile, popular funding opportunities than putting more of the budget aside for shady shenanigans like GCHQ.
donedealomg 8y ago
Here is the full story https://theintercept.com/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq-inside-story/ https://theintercept.com/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq-insid... Great article from 2014 ... Apparently todays news is a follow up on it.
- simpleAdam 8y ago
  "The suspicious files had been enabling a highly sophisticated hacker to circumvent automatic Microsoft software updates..." I knew it. Those auto updates are a curse.
ElBarto 8y ago
China at it again... No, wait.
vectorEQ 8y ago
Edward Snowdon :')
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
tango24 8y ago
By "sabotage" they meant "did not cooperate". Title is more click-baity then accurate.
antpls 8y ago
All the nasty/embarrassing stories for UK will be resurfaced to weight in Brexit negotiations. Russia already warned the international community that UK didn't cooperate well about all the accusations of nerve agents (not that Russia cooperates massively either). Personal opinion : UK gov thinks they are the only people on Earth, they think they can ignore their neighbors, they overestimate themselves and I hope a bad Brexit will give them a good lesson. If UK were a passive country and actually self-sufficient, we wouldn't care much. But they actively try to influence international relations, and they want to do it without EU, which is obviously egoist and short-sighted, since they don't get to chose their geographical neighbors.
- fhood 8y ago
  Hahaha hilarious. That silly UK government. You would never see any other English speaking countries act like that, no siree.
  - Karunamon 8y ago
    This is whataboutism and doesn't add much to the conversation.
    - fhood 8y ago
      Would you have preferred I phrased it "That attitude is not unique to the UK, given that the US and Australia, among others, have been known to act much the same way"? Same information either way.
      - Karunamon 8y ago
        I’d prefer we don’t attempt to deflect valid criticism with snarky or otherwise variations “other people do it too”...
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  I think that applies to almost all governments. :p The UK is just blessed with possibly our most incompetent and arrogant government(s) in a century. A bad Brexit will hurt the people not the tax haven hedge fund running politicians who are no doubt heavily short on Sterling.
dev_dull 8y ago
> However the Belgian government and security services were kept in the dark, something which the federal prosecutor’s report described as “exceptional between EU states, and something that could lead to a diplomatic incident.” Seems a lot missing from this story. Do they usually engage their partners? If so, why not this time? We’re they afraid of being tipped off? Who were the targets, terrorists or perhaps other government officials in the Middle East?
- shubb 8y ago
  Seem to recall belgium is on a list of countries security cleared brits are not supposed to go to. Presumably the relationship between UK and Belgian inteligence is really bad for some reason. Unreliably, there is a post with a list here, but it is famously true. https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/countries-that-require-permission-to-visit.167123/ https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/countries-that-req...
number_six 8y ago
And...it's gone
qwerty456127 8y ago
Seems like they've also hacked brusselstimes.com, the page won't open...

332 points by kostaddin 8y ago

whats the new story here? As this said it was confirmed by wikileaks.. years ago.

sbhn 8y ago

‘But when the Belgian investigators approached their British counterparts with a request for help in identifying who was behind the three companies, GCHQ declined to cooperate, claiming that cooperation would “bring the sovereignty, security and public order [of the UK] into jeopardy”.’ OMG we’re doomed

snowwindwaves 8y ago
> the investigation revealed that spy software had been installed remotely on Belgacom computers from three IP addresses in the UK thought to be registered to front companies. Installed spyware from government offices without bothering to proxy through any other systems?
mmjaa 8y ago
When "the sovereignty, security and public order" is defined by people whose entire lives are based on the ability to keep secrets, use knowledge gained illegally, secretly, and ensure that nobody else has the ability to usurp their position .. yes, we are indeed doomed. Its long since past the point where the 5-eyes nations should suffer repercussions for their heinous imperialist actions. One can only hope that Brexit will bring the UK into sufficiently subservient stance that these crimes will no longer be accepted by the EU.
- tssva 8y ago
  Your belief that the other EU countries don't engage in similar activities against their allies within and outside the EU is naive at best. Germany and France in particular have large intelligence organizations which are known to have been used against allies as well as enemies.
  - mmjaa 8y ago
    Whining that "all the other kids are doing it" is only relevant when there is actually evidence on the table that it is at the same level of magnitude as when 'your team' does it. So far, there is nothing like the heinous 5-eyes super-surveillance state, anywhere else in the world. The 5-eyes have granted themselves mastery over the rest of the world - and this fact only serves as further justification that other states should be doing it now. This is the slippery slope: why is it okay for the UK to do it, but not Germany, Italy and France? The answer: its not okay for anyone to do it. Stop justifying it.
    - tssva 8y ago
      I didn't express any sentiment that it was ok for the UK to do it or in anyway justify it. I just pointed out the naivety of thinking the other EU states don't do it.

pleasecalllater 8y ago

In normal world this should be equal to declaring a war, right?

thrower123 8y ago
Thank goodness it is not likely to trigger war. Flanders' fields have seen enough blood.
- IMTDb 8y ago
  EDIT: did not know about the english poem "In flanders fields". http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fields.htm http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fiel...
  - thrower123 8y ago
    Flanders is part of Belgium. In English there's a tradition of talking about this area as Flanders, going back to at least Marlborough, if not the Hundred Years War
    - IMTDb 8y ago
      True. But in this event, the potential would very likely impact all of Belgium, so there is no reason to differentiate flanders from the rest of the country. On top of that, both part of the country has suffered similarly throughout history of wars and bombs, so again there is no need for differentiation here. There are very good reasons to differentiate the north and south part of the country on a lot of subjects since they are so different. This is not one of those reasons. Defense is a federal issue and there is no reasons to make it regional.
      - thrower123 8y ago
        I'm really not trying to imply anything at all here. I'm just referencing this region's history of being a crossroads of empire and the common idiom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields

Someone1234 8y ago

The real mystery is this: > However the Belgian government and security services were kept in the dark, something which the federal prosecutor’s report described as “exceptional between EU states, and something that could lead to a diplomatic incident.” If this operation was ONLY meant to target a subsidiary working mostly inside the middle-east with legitimate terrorist ties, I'd imagine they would have included the Belgians. One could speculate that GCHQ decided to go it alone, just to see "what else we can get" in terms of potentially spying within Belgian/on Belgian's citizens. It isn't even the first time GCHQ has been caught spying on other European countries[0]. But I guess the City of London needs to get their financial "tips" somehow... [0] http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/gchq-and-nsa-targeted-private-german-companies-a-961444.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/gchq-and-nsa-tar...

johnchristopher 8y ago
> If this operation was ONLY meant to target a subsidiary working mostly inside the middle-east with legitimate terrorist ties, I'd imagine they would have included the Belgians. I am from Belgium and quite frankly I'd understand why GCHQ would want to bypass our own security services. Understaffed, underpaid and under skilled. Now that's just the pragmatic in me, the citizen in me is really concerned about that case (and why the UK is allowed to go on pulling such stunts considering that kind of things has been going on since WW2).
- swarnie_ 8y ago
  I'm from the UK, GCHQ are criminally underfunded and pay 20-30% below market rate for similar skills in the private sector. Might be common across a lot of intel agencies
  - 7000skeletons 8y ago
    There's some rumblings about this improving, but as with a lot of things in the UK the current government is walking a tightrope in terms of funding (they've got to keep a lot of special interest groups on-side in order to pass any legislation). They'd rather go for high-profile, popular funding opportunities than putting more of the budget aside for shady shenanigans like GCHQ.

donedealomg 8y ago

Here is the full story https://theintercept.com/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq-inside-story/ https://theintercept.com/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq-insid... Great article from 2014 ... Apparently todays news is a follow up on it.

simpleAdam 8y ago
"The suspicious files had been enabling a highly sophisticated hacker to circumvent automatic Microsoft software updates..." I knew it. Those auto updates are a curse.

ElBarto 8y ago

China at it again... No, wait.

vectorEQ 8y ago

Edward Snowdon :')

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

tango24 8y ago

By "sabotage" they meant "did not cooperate". Title is more click-baity then accurate.

antpls 8y ago

All the nasty/embarrassing stories for UK will be resurfaced to weight in Brexit negotiations. Russia already warned the international community that UK didn't cooperate well about all the accusations of nerve agents (not that Russia cooperates massively either). Personal opinion : UK gov thinks they are the only people on Earth, they think they can ignore their neighbors, they overestimate themselves and I hope a bad Brexit will give them a good lesson. If UK were a passive country and actually self-sufficient, we wouldn't care much. But they actively try to influence international relations, and they want to do it without EU, which is obviously egoist and short-sighted, since they don't get to chose their geographical neighbors.

fhood 8y ago
Hahaha hilarious. That silly UK government. You would never see any other English speaking countries act like that, no siree.
- Karunamon 8y ago
  This is whataboutism and doesn't add much to the conversation.
  - fhood 8y ago
    Would you have preferred I phrased it "That attitude is not unique to the UK, given that the US and Australia, among others, have been known to act much the same way"? Same information either way.
    - Karunamon 8y ago
      I’d prefer we don’t attempt to deflect valid criticism with snarky or otherwise variations “other people do it too”...
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
I think that applies to almost all governments. :p The UK is just blessed with possibly our most incompetent and arrogant government(s) in a century. A bad Brexit will hurt the people not the tax haven hedge fund running politicians who are no doubt heavily short on Sterling.

dev_dull 8y ago

> However the Belgian government and security services were kept in the dark, something which the federal prosecutor’s report described as “exceptional between EU states, and something that could lead to a diplomatic incident.” Seems a lot missing from this story. Do they usually engage their partners? If so, why not this time? We’re they afraid of being tipped off? Who were the targets, terrorists or perhaps other government officials in the Middle East?

shubb 8y ago
Seem to recall belgium is on a list of countries security cleared brits are not supposed to go to. Presumably the relationship between UK and Belgian inteligence is really bad for some reason. Unreliably, there is a post with a list here, but it is famously true. https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/countries-that-require-permission-to-visit.167123/ https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/countries-that-req...

number_six 8y ago

And...it's gone

qwerty456127 8y ago

Seems like they've also hacked brusselstimes.com, the page won't open...