6 ms·

“where there is no right to free speech“ Yes, there is. At least in my experience as a happy EU citizen. So want to cut the hyperbole and substantiate your cl

“where there is no right to free speech“ Yes, there is. At least in my experience as a happy EU citizen. So want to cut the hyperbole and substantiate your claim?

throwaway8879 8y ago
Are you allowed to deny the Holocaust?
- thecatspaw 8y ago
  If you can provide scientific proof that it didnt happen, yes. Otherwise no
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    You can't do that, it's impossible. You'd have to go with something like "show that the massive decline in the Jewish population of Nazi Germany was by means other than genocide". Which is also impossible, but due to truth instead of poor epistemology.
  - NietTim 8y ago
    Ehhhh, you're "not even" allowed to investigate it, so this one doesn't really work
    - UncleMeat 8y ago
      This is false. I personally know academics who study genocide who do serious research on the Holocaust in Europe. It's just that these people are dingbats who have decided ahead of time to deny the Holocaust and desperately search for any shred of broken evidence for this claim.
- w4tson 8y ago
  Sure. UK crackpot David Irving has been denying the holocaust since the 80s. There’s a drama on Netflix about him called Denial
  - uncle_d 8y ago
    Perhaps you forgot about this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefar...
    - w4tson 8y ago
      Well I didn’t know. But now I do, so thanks.
- DandyDev 8y ago
  No, most EU countries have laws in some form that prohibit Holocaust denial. But as with any country that has the rights to freedom of speech, these rights are inevitably balanced and restricted by other laws. This is a good thing, because while freedom of speech is important, the general wellbeing of the population and preventing people getting hurt is important as well. It is my belief for example that allowing racist remark under the banner of free speech, hurts more than it helps. It leads to an overall negative impact in the wellbeing of the population. I think the same balance was considered when prohibiting holocaust denial. Question: why use a throwaway account?
  - AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
    > the general wellbeing of the population and preventing people getting hurt is important as well I fail to see how speech does hurts anyone. Would you mind elaborating? Should it not be solely the responsibility of whoever hears said speech to decide on whether to act on it? Does censorship of any shape or form not actually hurt the ones that wanted to listen to said speech the most?
  - dnadler 8y ago
    On the other side of the argument, I think many would ask where do you draw the line? And who draws that line? It seems like the majority of the people I know feel like it's better not to draw that line at all and instead focus on teaching people why these arguments are wrong. The failing of our education system is another (bad) problem entirely. Ex: what if the government one day decides that criticizing the government is too offensive?
    - throwaway8879 8y ago
      This is what I'm concerned about too. Where I'm from, offending those in power/religion/etc will get you into a whole lot of trouble. When I was young, maybe two decades ago, there was an inkling of hope that perhaps one day my people would follow the Western ideal(at least to an extent), when it comes to free of speech, human rights and so on. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening anymore. I don't want to sound gloomy, but the web back in the day had a completely different feel to it. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I can feel it's vibrancy dying. Maybe it started a while ago. Anyway, there's still hope with decentralization and such. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
- Certhas 8y ago
  Are you allowed to slander in the US? Are you allowed to publish Child pronography? Are you allowed to publish Obscene materials (as judged by the average citizen)? Are you allowed to utter words that might incite someone to fight you? [1] Some of it depends on state law, but the 1st amendment does not protect any of those [1]. Bottom line: No country has absolute freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is one of the basic liberties, and it's balanced against others. Different countries come to different conclusions on the balance. Generally speaking Germany tends more towards Freedom than the US according to comprehensive surveys [2]. Specifically When it comes to denying history, citing the US Supreme Court: "[There is] no constitutional value in false statements of fact". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce... [2] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou...
qaq 8y ago
How about unhappy EU citizens :)?
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Which country in the EU? Free Speech, in the USAmerican sense, seems to be strongly curtailed in the UK.
- DandyDev 8y ago
  The Netherlands. And in what way is US freedom of speech with puritan censoring of anything sex related better than a system in which we prohibit something like holocaust denial? (something that actually hurts people, as opposed to someone's nipples)
- dnadler 8y ago
  Responding to the sibling re: censoring pornography. The 1st amendment prevents the government from interfering with the free exchange of ideas (among other things). We generally believe that letting the government regulate this kind of thing is a dangerous slippery slope.
  - Certhas 8y ago
    Obscenity laws are constitutional in the US. Obscene speech is not protected by the 1st Amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California There are myriads of other exceptions to 1st Amendment protections (including, even if people often don't think of it that way, intellectual property rights): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce... The whole idea that "Free speech is protected in the US but not in Europe" is just an (libertarian?) meme with no basis in fact.
- hexane360 8y ago
  "Free speech, defined as the law and culture that exists in the U.S., is better in the U.S. than any other country" You do see the flawed reasoning, don't you?
AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
In greece you are not allowed to criticise the president, nor are you allowed to insult the church. In germany it was illegal (not sure if it still is) to publish games that had nazi imaginary (such as wolfenstein). In the UK and France you are not allowed to produce certain pornographic drawings. To me these restrictions show that in the EU there is no free speech.
- Toboe 8y ago
  >In germany it was illegal (not sure if it still is) to publish games that had nazi imaginary (such as wolfenstein). Since that comes up from time to time... In germany games with nazi imagery are as legal as books or movies containing nazi imagery. Legal through the art/science/research/teaching/reporting exception §86 StGB (3) [0] What has recently changed is that the organization that does the age ratings for games changed its stance. Now they consider the exception rather than treating it as a show stopper. [0] https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/86.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/86.html
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
MaxBarraclough 8y ago
> At least in my experience as a happy EU citizen. If you're happy with the status-quo, you're hardly a good test for your society's freedom of speech, no? Freedom of speech means the freedom to say unpopular things.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  While you're not wrong, there is no answer that will make everybody happy.

“where there is no right to free speech“ Yes, there is. At least in my experience as a happy EU citizen. So want to cut the hyperbole and substantiate your claim?

throwaway8879 8y ago

Are you allowed to deny the Holocaust?

thecatspaw 8y ago
If you can provide scientific proof that it didnt happen, yes. Otherwise no
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  You can't do that, it's impossible. You'd have to go with something like "show that the massive decline in the Jewish population of Nazi Germany was by means other than genocide". Which is also impossible, but due to truth instead of poor epistemology.
- NietTim 8y ago
  Ehhhh, you're "not even" allowed to investigate it, so this one doesn't really work
  - UncleMeat 8y ago
    This is false. I personally know academics who study genocide who do serious research on the Holocaust in Europe. It's just that these people are dingbats who have decided ahead of time to deny the Holocaust and desperately search for any shred of broken evidence for this claim.
w4tson 8y ago
Sure. UK crackpot David Irving has been denying the holocaust since the 80s. There’s a drama on Netflix about him called Denial
- uncle_d 8y ago
  Perhaps you forgot about this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefar...
  - w4tson 8y ago
    Well I didn’t know. But now I do, so thanks.
DandyDev 8y ago
No, most EU countries have laws in some form that prohibit Holocaust denial. But as with any country that has the rights to freedom of speech, these rights are inevitably balanced and restricted by other laws. This is a good thing, because while freedom of speech is important, the general wellbeing of the population and preventing people getting hurt is important as well. It is my belief for example that allowing racist remark under the banner of free speech, hurts more than it helps. It leads to an overall negative impact in the wellbeing of the population. I think the same balance was considered when prohibiting holocaust denial. Question: why use a throwaway account?
- AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
  > the general wellbeing of the population and preventing people getting hurt is important as well I fail to see how speech does hurts anyone. Would you mind elaborating? Should it not be solely the responsibility of whoever hears said speech to decide on whether to act on it? Does censorship of any shape or form not actually hurt the ones that wanted to listen to said speech the most?
- dnadler 8y ago
  On the other side of the argument, I think many would ask where do you draw the line? And who draws that line? It seems like the majority of the people I know feel like it's better not to draw that line at all and instead focus on teaching people why these arguments are wrong. The failing of our education system is another (bad) problem entirely. Ex: what if the government one day decides that criticizing the government is too offensive?
  - throwaway8879 8y ago
    This is what I'm concerned about too. Where I'm from, offending those in power/religion/etc will get you into a whole lot of trouble. When I was young, maybe two decades ago, there was an inkling of hope that perhaps one day my people would follow the Western ideal(at least to an extent), when it comes to free of speech, human rights and so on. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening anymore. I don't want to sound gloomy, but the web back in the day had a completely different feel to it. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I can feel it's vibrancy dying. Maybe it started a while ago. Anyway, there's still hope with decentralization and such. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
Certhas 8y ago
Are you allowed to slander in the US? Are you allowed to publish Child pronography? Are you allowed to publish Obscene materials (as judged by the average citizen)? Are you allowed to utter words that might incite someone to fight you? [1] Some of it depends on state law, but the 1st amendment does not protect any of those [1]. Bottom line: No country has absolute freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is one of the basic liberties, and it's balanced against others. Different countries come to different conclusions on the balance. Generally speaking Germany tends more towards Freedom than the US according to comprehensive surveys [2]. Specifically When it comes to denying history, citing the US Supreme Court: "[There is] no constitutional value in false statements of fact". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce... [2] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou...

qaq 8y ago

How about unhappy EU citizens :)?

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

Which country in the EU? Free Speech, in the USAmerican sense, seems to be strongly curtailed in the UK.

DandyDev 8y ago
The Netherlands. And in what way is US freedom of speech with puritan censoring of anything sex related better than a system in which we prohibit something like holocaust denial? (something that actually hurts people, as opposed to someone's nipples)
dnadler 8y ago
Responding to the sibling re: censoring pornography. The 1st amendment prevents the government from interfering with the free exchange of ideas (among other things). We generally believe that letting the government regulate this kind of thing is a dangerous slippery slope.
- Certhas 8y ago
  Obscenity laws are constitutional in the US. Obscene speech is not protected by the 1st Amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California There are myriads of other exceptions to 1st Amendment protections (including, even if people often don't think of it that way, intellectual property rights): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce... The whole idea that "Free speech is protected in the US but not in Europe" is just an (libertarian?) meme with no basis in fact.
hexane360 8y ago
"Free speech, defined as the law and culture that exists in the U.S., is better in the U.S. than any other country" You do see the flawed reasoning, don't you?

AnaniasAnanas 8y ago

In greece you are not allowed to criticise the president, nor are you allowed to insult the church. In germany it was illegal (not sure if it still is) to publish games that had nazi imaginary (such as wolfenstein). In the UK and France you are not allowed to produce certain pornographic drawings. To me these restrictions show that in the EU there is no free speech.

Toboe 8y ago
>In germany it was illegal (not sure if it still is) to publish games that had nazi imaginary (such as wolfenstein). Since that comes up from time to time... In germany games with nazi imagery are as legal as books or movies containing nazi imagery. Legal through the art/science/research/teaching/reporting exception §86 StGB (3) [0] What has recently changed is that the organization that does the age ratings for games changed its stance. Now they consider the exception rather than treating it as a show stopper. [0] https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/86.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/86.html

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

MaxBarraclough 8y ago

> At least in my experience as a happy EU citizen. If you're happy with the status-quo, you're hardly a good test for your society's freedom of speech, no? Freedom of speech means the freedom to say unpopular things.

raverbashing 8y ago
While you're not wrong, there is no answer that will make everybody happy.