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Yes. It has been known for decades that biological matter resonates at microwave frequencies but we've been told over and over that non-ionizing radiations cann

by ucha 8y ago

Yes. It has been known for decades that biological matter resonates at microwave frequencies but we've been told over and over that non-ionizing radiations cannot cause cancer [0]. DNA is an electricly charged dipole that will heat up when exposed to microwaves and that would damage it [1]. [0]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349502754738 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000634950... [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2304485 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2304485

xenadu02 8y ago
There's a lot of water in the way between DNA and any microwave source. Microwaves do not penetrate water very well - part of the reason rain tends to cause problems with microwave links. Also the reason microwave ovens work: by heating the food. So what is the proposed mechanism by which microwave energy is supposed to heat DNA enough to damage it?
- guelo 8y ago
  Microwave ovens are able to heat several pounds of meat all the way through to the center. So it can penetrate at least a few wet inches of tissue.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    In my experience they heat the outside but the center warms by conduction. If I heat a bowl of tomato sauce it can be boiling at the edges and cold in the middle. I have to stop and stir it a few times. Same with potatoes. Hot on the outside, raw in the center.
    - jerf 8y ago
      So I went poking around on the Intarwebs for "microwave penetration" and found this rather intriguing page with penetration depths of various items: http://www.pueschner.com/en/microwave-technology/penetration-depths http://www.pueschner.com/en/microwave-technology/penetration... I was surprised by the table. Temperature matters way more than I'd expect for water, and it seems ice may in fact be effectively transparent to microwaves? Now I want to fiddle when I get home... it looks an awful lot like you can put a cup of water and a chunk of ice in a microwave and boil the water while the ice is still frozen... (though I'm going to assume that number for ice is pure ice; air bubbles in ice may wreck this up) Experimentation time!
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        Someone came up with a recipe exploiting the fact that microwaves are absorbed much more readily by fluids than solids. It was a frozen meringue with a hot center. I think it was in Sci Am. The name suggested the reverse of a Baked Alaska.
        telchar 8y ago
        Now that's some clever cooking. I'd not have thought of that.
  - lstodd 8y ago
    That's thermal conductivity, not penetration. About the only thing that can be reasonably uniformly heated in a microwave at continuous full power is a water-based liquid and that only because of convection. Put a slab of meat in for a minute at 100% power and it'll be still cold in the center.
  - vkou 8y ago
    > So it can penetrate at least a few wet inches of tissue. As anyone who's used a microwave a few times in their life will tell you, microwaves, at best, manage to super-heat a fraction of an inch of food. And that's from blasting >1,000 watts of radiation at it.
  - stouset 8y ago
    Microwave ovens output something like 700-1000W in a shielded chamber continuously over the course of a minute or longer. Even then they’re generally only heating the outer layers, which in turn heat the inner layers through thermal conduction.
  - chefkoch 8y ago
    No, a microwave oven penetrates meat half an inch max.
  - emddudley 8y ago
    Most of the microwave power does not deeply penetrate something like a whole ham. The microwaves are mostly absorbed by the outer layers and then the heat conducts through the inner portions. The journal article below contains lots of detail. It claims that microwaves penetrate about 3.8 mm in cooked ham and 9.9 mm in cooked beef. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4657497/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4657497/
    - rixed 8y ago
      > The microwaves are mostly absorbed by the > outer layers and then the heat conducts > through the inner portions. Then why does the plate have to be slowly rotated within the oven? I used to believe that it was for the waves peaks (distant from one another by a pair of centimeters) to be able to reach every point of the inside. But if the inside is heated by conduction, which propagates evenly in all directions, then why care rotating the plate?
      - canhascodez 8y ago
        Microwave ovens do indeed have hot spots[0]. Conduction doesn't propagate evenly in very many foodstuffs, and you still want to avoid overheating any one spot. [0] https://www.evilmadscientist.com/2011/microwave-oven-diagnostics-with-indian-snack-food/
  - skosch 8y ago
    Sure, when you use hundreds of watts over several minutes. The decay over distance should be roughly exponential: every x millimeters, you're left with only half of the radiation. Given the radiation caused by a cellphone in your pocket, how many microns of water do you need to attenuate the intensity to a non-mutagenic level?
  - kec 8y ago
    Microwave ovens also typically transmit around 1kW, at the resonant frequency of water. By comparison most cell equipment is either not at this frequency or a harmonic if it, limited to <<50W, or both.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Don't microwaves work by literally boiling the water in food, from the inside out?
- ucha 8y ago
  What do you mean by there's a lot of water between DNA and microwave source? Outer skin cell have a diameter of 30 microns - their DNA can be damaged.
api 8y ago
WiFi typically uses frequencies that resonate with water, which limits its range due to H2O vapor in the atmosphere. These frequencies are used because they're not licensed for other purposes and because this range limitation allows more WiFi to more easily coexist in urban areas. Would this be bad or good from a (hypothetical) carcinogenic standpoint? Since we are mostly water would this mean our interior below say the first few layers of skin are fairly effectively shielded from WiFi radiation?
nerdponx 8y ago
Also note that there are risks of microwave radiation apart from cancer: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0891061815000599 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089106181...

by ucha 8y ago

xenadu02 8y ago

There's a lot of water in the way between DNA and any microwave source. Microwaves do not penetrate water very well - part of the reason rain tends to cause problems with microwave links. Also the reason microwave ovens work: by heating the food. So what is the proposed mechanism by which microwave energy is supposed to heat DNA enough to damage it?

guelo 8y ago
Microwave ovens are able to heat several pounds of meat all the way through to the center. So it can penetrate at least a few wet inches of tissue.
- ams6110 8y ago
  In my experience they heat the outside but the center warms by conduction. If I heat a bowl of tomato sauce it can be boiling at the edges and cold in the middle. I have to stop and stir it a few times. Same with potatoes. Hot on the outside, raw in the center.
  - jerf 8y ago
    So I went poking around on the Intarwebs for "microwave penetration" and found this rather intriguing page with penetration depths of various items: http://www.pueschner.com/en/microwave-technology/penetration-depths http://www.pueschner.com/en/microwave-technology/penetration... I was surprised by the table. Temperature matters way more than I'd expect for water, and it seems ice may in fact be effectively transparent to microwaves? Now I want to fiddle when I get home... it looks an awful lot like you can put a cup of water and a chunk of ice in a microwave and boil the water while the ice is still frozen... (though I'm going to assume that number for ice is pure ice; air bubbles in ice may wreck this up) Experimentation time!
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Someone came up with a recipe exploiting the fact that microwaves are absorbed much more readily by fluids than solids. It was a frozen meringue with a hot center. I think it was in Sci Am. The name suggested the reverse of a Baked Alaska.
      - telchar 8y ago
        Now that's some clever cooking. I'd not have thought of that.
- lstodd 8y ago
  That's thermal conductivity, not penetration. About the only thing that can be reasonably uniformly heated in a microwave at continuous full power is a water-based liquid and that only because of convection. Put a slab of meat in for a minute at 100% power and it'll be still cold in the center.
- vkou 8y ago
  > So it can penetrate at least a few wet inches of tissue. As anyone who's used a microwave a few times in their life will tell you, microwaves, at best, manage to super-heat a fraction of an inch of food. And that's from blasting >1,000 watts of radiation at it.
- stouset 8y ago
  Microwave ovens output something like 700-1000W in a shielded chamber continuously over the course of a minute or longer. Even then they’re generally only heating the outer layers, which in turn heat the inner layers through thermal conduction.
- chefkoch 8y ago
  No, a microwave oven penetrates meat half an inch max.
- emddudley 8y ago
  Most of the microwave power does not deeply penetrate something like a whole ham. The microwaves are mostly absorbed by the outer layers and then the heat conducts through the inner portions. The journal article below contains lots of detail. It claims that microwaves penetrate about 3.8 mm in cooked ham and 9.9 mm in cooked beef. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4657497/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4657497/
  - rixed 8y ago
    > The microwaves are mostly absorbed by the > outer layers and then the heat conducts > through the inner portions. Then why does the plate have to be slowly rotated within the oven? I used to believe that it was for the waves peaks (distant from one another by a pair of centimeters) to be able to reach every point of the inside. But if the inside is heated by conduction, which propagates evenly in all directions, then why care rotating the plate?
    - canhascodez 8y ago
      Microwave ovens do indeed have hot spots[0]. Conduction doesn't propagate evenly in very many foodstuffs, and you still want to avoid overheating any one spot. [0] https://www.evilmadscientist.com/2011/microwave-oven-diagnostics-with-indian-snack-food/
- skosch 8y ago
  Sure, when you use hundreds of watts over several minutes. The decay over distance should be roughly exponential: every x millimeters, you're left with only half of the radiation. Given the radiation caused by a cellphone in your pocket, how many microns of water do you need to attenuate the intensity to a non-mutagenic level?
- kec 8y ago
  Microwave ovens also typically transmit around 1kW, at the resonant frequency of water. By comparison most cell equipment is either not at this frequency or a harmonic if it, limited to <<50W, or both.
nerdponx 8y ago
Don't microwaves work by literally boiling the water in food, from the inside out?
ucha 8y ago
What do you mean by there's a lot of water between DNA and microwave source? Outer skin cell have a diameter of 30 microns - their DNA can be damaged.

api 8y ago

WiFi typically uses frequencies that resonate with water, which limits its range due to H2O vapor in the atmosphere. These frequencies are used because they're not licensed for other purposes and because this range limitation allows more WiFi to more easily coexist in urban areas. Would this be bad or good from a (hypothetical) carcinogenic standpoint? Since we are mostly water would this mean our interior below say the first few layers of skin are fairly effectively shielded from WiFi radiation?

nerdponx 8y ago

Also note that there are risks of microwave radiation apart from cancer: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0891061815000599 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089106181...