5 ms·

I don't know jin Yong (what would I read from him first as european? Any recommendations?) But I tend to dislike the overarching glorification of Tolkien. Sure

I don't know jin Yong (what would I read from him first as european? Any recommendations?) But I tend to dislike the overarching glorification of Tolkien. Surely an impressive writer and world-builder but surely not the only one and not necessarily the best.

twright0 8y ago
Out of curiosity, which writers would you put above Tolkien for world-building (in the Western canon)?
- akvadrako 8y ago
  George Orwell is the most influential one I can think of.
  - arethuza 8y ago
    Things like 1984 don't really count as fantasy though (unfortunately) as they were an extrapolation of things that were already happening in the 1930s and 1940s.
    - watwut 8y ago
      In the same sense, high fantasy is just extrapolation of national wars and myths.
  - idoubtit 8y ago
    George Orwell certainly was a successful writer (in the sense that he became famous and sold many books), but not a world-builder. 1984 is a rip-off from Zamyatin's novel, "We". Ironically, Orwell wrote before WWII that Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (1932) was heavily inspired by We (1921). Then he wrote 1984 (1949) which borrows even more: it's the same story, with more romance and a more mainstream narrating style.
- Pamar 8y ago
  Personally, I enjoyed T.H. White immensely more than Tolkien, but this is surely just a matter of personal preferences.
- victoriasun 8y ago
  I think it's pretty hard to answer this question because what Tolkein is good at and what he is bad at are two sides of the same coin. Tolkein presents an extremely fantastical view of the world and ascribes to what I call "cosmic morality." There is obvious, pure good and pure evil, and in a way the Universe intervenes to make sure that pure good will win out in the end. I don't mean this in a Deus Ex Machina way, by the way, as cosmic morality is justified within Tolkein's universe. I think Breaking Bad is a good example of this as well -- the Universe has passed its judgment on the characters it deems necessary to pass judgment on, and it works within its story without detracting from it or seeming like a Deus Ex Machina. So much of the criticism of Tolkein in the modern day, to me, surrounds this concept where he ascribes to the idea that the Universe will eventually judge sinners and saints. That being said, it does not and should not detract from the sheer magnitude of his creative work, as well as his linguistic ability. George RR Martin, is, I think, an obvious counterpoint and much of his writing is driven by a distaste for this amount of cosmic morality. If we were to harken back to amazing TV, GRRM is more like The Wire -- they choose to present the world in a way they deem "factual". But in doing so they lose some of the higher fantasy elements that Tolkein's world building is known for. So I think when you ask the question of who is a better world-builder I think you need to start with asking whether or not you want a cynically real depiction (ala GRRM) or you want a story that justifies it's heroic deeds (ala Tolkein) first. Because, in my opinion, they are hard to compare.
  - Annatar 8y ago
    "There is obvious, pure good and pure evil, and in a way the Universe intervenes to make sure that pure good will win out in the end." There is no such thing in either the Silmarillion or the Lord of the Rings: in the Silmarillion, Melkor is taken beyond into a different dimension, yet there is so much damage that this is hardly more than partial damage control; and stopping The Enemy causes an even greater tragedy, that of everything wrought with the Three Rings to fail and fade, resulting in elves having to once again leave Middleearth, that place where they awoke and hold so dear. Hardly can this be called "good versus evil" or either side winning, and if so, it's a phyrric victory for both. Nobody wins in the end; the inevitable is just prolonged yet again through the rise of men at the expense of everyone else. The way Melkor set the stage, Ainur played it, and Sauron finished it, there could never be any victor, good or evil. It was a perfectly balanced system. It was never about Black-White and especially it isn't about good winning in the end, since the victory causes even more tragedy.
- forkLding 8y ago
  I prefer Terry Pratchett or George RR Martin, a lot of high fantasy stories are too rigid and stuck on heroes and villains
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Not competing on world-building per se (inventing few languages requires proper linguistic background), but on other aspects, Malazan book of the fallen series is an amazing read. World is just more interesting to dive into. Till I had read it, Tolkien was #1 fantasy for me. Afterwards, it seemed bland and a bit boring. But that's me, some people drown in complex parallel stories and heaps of characters. From what I heard Wheel of time is similarly awesome, but no first hand experience with it yet.
  - nickik 8y ago
    The Wheel of Time has some great world building, but also some terrible. The Wheel has a lot of different cultures that all feel like they have an identity. However Wheel is mostly great for its broad (epic) scope of the central conflict and how this is told threw characters.
- BerislavLopac 8y ago
  Ursula LeGuin (in particular her Earthsea series), Robin Hobb (in particular her Liveship Traders).
- billfruit 8y ago
  As mentioned in a sibling comment, I have heard people put Mervyn Peake and William Morris in the same bracket as Tolkien.
victoriasun 8y ago
It can be difficult to get into reading JY as a Western reader as he writes in extremely poetic language. There are a lot of great articles on the difficulties of translating Chinese poetry if you're interested in the subject. Instead -- I suggest you watch some of his live action adaptions! The Smiling, Proud Wanderer is my personal favorite JY story, and my favorite drama rendition is the 2001 one starring Li Yapeng. He is probably best known for the Condor Trilogy (The Legend of the Condor Heroes, The Return of the Condor Heroes, and The Heavenly Sword and Dragon Saber) and although I loved the first I was never personally that into the latter two of the series. Probably his greatest work is in my opinion Demi-gods and Semi-Devils, although that might not be a good entry point into the series. I would look at TSPW or TLCH first :) And well, Tolkein will always hold a special place in my heart. But I do agree that he is slightly over romanticized as an author.
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  I've watched Laughing in the Wind (2001, 4 seasons with 10 episodes each) but with English subtitles as I don't speak Chinese and have to warn the other poster that it's availability is extremely limited last time I looked.
int_19h 8y ago
I think that it's quite reasonable to consider Tolkien as one of the best world-builders in the Western canon. But that is unsurprising, given that the man basically devoted his entire life to constructing a single imaginary world - he was a world-builder first, and writer second (and far better at the first than he was at the second, IMO). Most authors create a world to tell their stories in, and it's only as detailed as the story needs it to be. Tolkien wrote stories as, basically, illustrations to his world-building. Most of them didn't even get cleaned up to be publishable until long after his death.
- wirrbel 8y ago
  on the other hand, I sometimes feel like he has done a lot of "history building", but I find his world sometimes incredibly sparsely described.
billfruit 8y ago
I suppose Tolkien perhaps is in the company of Mervyn Peake, and perhaps the earlier William Morris, with regards to world-building.
oh-kumudo 8y ago
His books are not easy read for western readers. The language is intentionally archaic and the cultural barriers are high. So as always, if you want to have a taste of his work, movies are your best friends. Below is a good one: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100973/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100973/

twright0 8y ago

Out of curiosity, which writers would you put above Tolkien for world-building (in the Western canon)?

akvadrako 8y ago
George Orwell is the most influential one I can think of.
- arethuza 8y ago
  Things like 1984 don't really count as fantasy though (unfortunately) as they were an extrapolation of things that were already happening in the 1930s and 1940s.
  - watwut 8y ago
    In the same sense, high fantasy is just extrapolation of national wars and myths.
- idoubtit 8y ago
  George Orwell certainly was a successful writer (in the sense that he became famous and sold many books), but not a world-builder. 1984 is a rip-off from Zamyatin's novel, "We". Ironically, Orwell wrote before WWII that Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (1932) was heavily inspired by We (1921). Then he wrote 1984 (1949) which borrows even more: it's the same story, with more romance and a more mainstream narrating style.
Pamar 8y ago
Personally, I enjoyed T.H. White immensely more than Tolkien, but this is surely just a matter of personal preferences.
victoriasun 8y ago
I think it's pretty hard to answer this question because what Tolkein is good at and what he is bad at are two sides of the same coin. Tolkein presents an extremely fantastical view of the world and ascribes to what I call "cosmic morality." There is obvious, pure good and pure evil, and in a way the Universe intervenes to make sure that pure good will win out in the end. I don't mean this in a Deus Ex Machina way, by the way, as cosmic morality is justified within Tolkein's universe. I think Breaking Bad is a good example of this as well -- the Universe has passed its judgment on the characters it deems necessary to pass judgment on, and it works within its story without detracting from it or seeming like a Deus Ex Machina. So much of the criticism of Tolkein in the modern day, to me, surrounds this concept where he ascribes to the idea that the Universe will eventually judge sinners and saints. That being said, it does not and should not detract from the sheer magnitude of his creative work, as well as his linguistic ability. George RR Martin, is, I think, an obvious counterpoint and much of his writing is driven by a distaste for this amount of cosmic morality. If we were to harken back to amazing TV, GRRM is more like The Wire -- they choose to present the world in a way they deem "factual". But in doing so they lose some of the higher fantasy elements that Tolkein's world building is known for. So I think when you ask the question of who is a better world-builder I think you need to start with asking whether or not you want a cynically real depiction (ala GRRM) or you want a story that justifies it's heroic deeds (ala Tolkein) first. Because, in my opinion, they are hard to compare.
- Annatar 8y ago
  "There is obvious, pure good and pure evil, and in a way the Universe intervenes to make sure that pure good will win out in the end." There is no such thing in either the Silmarillion or the Lord of the Rings: in the Silmarillion, Melkor is taken beyond into a different dimension, yet there is so much damage that this is hardly more than partial damage control; and stopping The Enemy causes an even greater tragedy, that of everything wrought with the Three Rings to fail and fade, resulting in elves having to once again leave Middleearth, that place where they awoke and hold so dear. Hardly can this be called "good versus evil" or either side winning, and if so, it's a phyrric victory for both. Nobody wins in the end; the inevitable is just prolonged yet again through the rise of men at the expense of everyone else. The way Melkor set the stage, Ainur played it, and Sauron finished it, there could never be any victor, good or evil. It was a perfectly balanced system. It was never about Black-White and especially it isn't about good winning in the end, since the victory causes even more tragedy.
forkLding 8y ago
I prefer Terry Pratchett or George RR Martin, a lot of high fantasy stories are too rigid and stuck on heroes and villains
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
saiya-jin 8y ago
Not competing on world-building per se (inventing few languages requires proper linguistic background), but on other aspects, Malazan book of the fallen series is an amazing read. World is just more interesting to dive into. Till I had read it, Tolkien was #1 fantasy for me. Afterwards, it seemed bland and a bit boring. But that's me, some people drown in complex parallel stories and heaps of characters. From what I heard Wheel of time is similarly awesome, but no first hand experience with it yet.
- nickik 8y ago
  The Wheel of Time has some great world building, but also some terrible. The Wheel has a lot of different cultures that all feel like they have an identity. However Wheel is mostly great for its broad (epic) scope of the central conflict and how this is told threw characters.
BerislavLopac 8y ago
Ursula LeGuin (in particular her Earthsea series), Robin Hobb (in particular her Liveship Traders).
billfruit 8y ago
As mentioned in a sibling comment, I have heard people put Mervyn Peake and William Morris in the same bracket as Tolkien.

victoriasun 8y ago

It can be difficult to get into reading JY as a Western reader as he writes in extremely poetic language. There are a lot of great articles on the difficulties of translating Chinese poetry if you're interested in the subject. Instead -- I suggest you watch some of his live action adaptions! The Smiling, Proud Wanderer is my personal favorite JY story, and my favorite drama rendition is the 2001 one starring Li Yapeng. He is probably best known for the Condor Trilogy (The Legend of the Condor Heroes, The Return of the Condor Heroes, and The Heavenly Sword and Dragon Saber) and although I loved the first I was never personally that into the latter two of the series. Probably his greatest work is in my opinion Demi-gods and Semi-Devils, although that might not be a good entry point into the series. I would look at TSPW or TLCH first :) And well, Tolkein will always hold a special place in my heart. But I do agree that he is slightly over romanticized as an author.

stevenwoo 8y ago
I've watched Laughing in the Wind (2001, 4 seasons with 10 episodes each) but with English subtitles as I don't speak Chinese and have to warn the other poster that it's availability is extremely limited last time I looked.

int_19h 8y ago

I think that it's quite reasonable to consider Tolkien as one of the best world-builders in the Western canon. But that is unsurprising, given that the man basically devoted his entire life to constructing a single imaginary world - he was a world-builder first, and writer second (and far better at the first than he was at the second, IMO). Most authors create a world to tell their stories in, and it's only as detailed as the story needs it to be. Tolkien wrote stories as, basically, illustrations to his world-building. Most of them didn't even get cleaned up to be publishable until long after his death.

wirrbel 8y ago
on the other hand, I sometimes feel like he has done a lot of "history building", but I find his world sometimes incredibly sparsely described.

billfruit 8y ago

I suppose Tolkien perhaps is in the company of Mervyn Peake, and perhaps the earlier William Morris, with regards to world-building.

oh-kumudo 8y ago

His books are not easy read for western readers. The language is intentionally archaic and the cultural barriers are high. So as always, if you want to have a taste of his work, movies are your best friends. Below is a good one: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100973/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100973/