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OP is saying that the US doesn't have the moral high ground and anyone spouting off about how badly China is acting is just being asinine since we do the exact

OP is saying that the US doesn't have the moral high ground and anyone spouting off about how badly China is acting is just being asinine since we do the exact same thing to everyone (and if we weren't then our intelligence agencies need to get off their asses and do it).

paulie_a 8y ago
There is a fine line in spycraft. Stealing secrets from companies for commercial gain is just pathetic. Can't innovate, just hack it and steal it.
- thereare5lights 8y ago
  > Stealing secrets from companies for commercial gain is just pathetic. Can't innovate, just hack it and steal it. Learn your history. Everyone does it. Europeans and Americans did it. Now the Chinese are doing. The only reason we're bitching is because now we're the targets instead of the thieves.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    Do you have any links about about industrial scale hacking for commercial profit by those regions?
    - kevinqiu1 8y ago
      https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/06/09/spy-vs-spy-3 https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/06/09/spy-vs-spy-3 Everyone is standing on the shoulders of someone else.
    - thereare5lights 8y ago
      Industrial espionage is older than the digital age and is not confined to hacking. It has been happening for centuries and many civilizations have undertaken efforts to take knowledge that was legally protected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_int... https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/porcelain-corporate-espionage-china-missionary-dentrecolles https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/porcelain-corporate-es... Harris, John (1998). Industrial Espionage and Technology Transfer: Britain and France in the Eighteenth Century. Aldershot: Ashgate Publishing Limited. p. 680. ISBN 0-7546-0367-9. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-espionage-started-americas-cotton-revolution-180967608/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-esp... https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use-economic-espionage-benefit-american-corporations/ https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use... https://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/12/10/the-new-industrial-espionage/ https://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/12/10/the-new-ind... https://searchinginhistory.blogspot.com/2015/02/francis-cabot-lowell-from-industrial.html https://searchinginhistory.blogspot.com/2015/02/francis-cabo... https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-na... https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=3729 https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=3729 The fact that we don't hear much about our own examples of stealing other civilization's secrets is just a matter of the fact that we are now ahead. If the tables were turned just like they were in the past, we'd go right back to stealing other people's tech. To say that other people shouldn't do things that we have and would do makes little sense. That isn't to say that we shouldn't protect ourselves, it's just to say that people need to stop the damn moralizing as if we were any better.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  When was it that the NSA was caught stealing lists of clients from Embraer and giving them to Boeing? I can't remember if it was 2015 or 2016...
  - xur17 8y ago
    I hadn't heard of this before, but now I'm curious - do you have any more details on this?
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      It was in 2013. And the international press seems to be much more focused on Petrobras, where the NSA stole a lot of data than Embraer where it just stole some emails. Here's a link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra...
- meowface 8y ago
  While it's nowhere near the scale of what China has done and is doing, NSA has engaged in industrial espionage to benefit the US economy as well. Few nations can say their hands are clean when it comes to this stuff.

paulie_a 8y ago

There is a fine line in spycraft. Stealing secrets from companies for commercial gain is just pathetic. Can't innovate, just hack it and steal it.

thereare5lights 8y ago
> Stealing secrets from companies for commercial gain is just pathetic. Can't innovate, just hack it and steal it. Learn your history. Everyone does it. Europeans and Americans did it. Now the Chinese are doing. The only reason we're bitching is because now we're the targets instead of the thieves.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  Do you have any links about about industrial scale hacking for commercial profit by those regions?
  - kevinqiu1 8y ago
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/06/09/spy-vs-spy-3 https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/06/09/spy-vs-spy-3 Everyone is standing on the shoulders of someone else.
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    Industrial espionage is older than the digital age and is not confined to hacking. It has been happening for centuries and many civilizations have undertaken efforts to take knowledge that was legally protected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_int... https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/porcelain-corporate-espionage-china-missionary-dentrecolles https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/porcelain-corporate-es... Harris, John (1998). Industrial Espionage and Technology Transfer: Britain and France in the Eighteenth Century. Aldershot: Ashgate Publishing Limited. p. 680. ISBN 0-7546-0367-9. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-espionage-started-americas-cotton-revolution-180967608/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-esp... https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use-economic-espionage-benefit-american-corporations/ https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/us-governments-plans-use... https://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/12/10/the-new-industrial-espionage/ https://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/12/10/the-new-ind... https://searchinginhistory.blogspot.com/2015/02/francis-cabot-lowell-from-industrial.html https://searchinginhistory.blogspot.com/2015/02/francis-cabo... https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-na... https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=3729 https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=3729 The fact that we don't hear much about our own examples of stealing other civilization's secrets is just a matter of the fact that we are now ahead. If the tables were turned just like they were in the past, we'd go right back to stealing other people's tech. To say that other people shouldn't do things that we have and would do makes little sense. That isn't to say that we shouldn't protect ourselves, it's just to say that people need to stop the damn moralizing as if we were any better.
marcosdumay 8y ago
When was it that the NSA was caught stealing lists of clients from Embraer and giving them to Boeing? I can't remember if it was 2015 or 2016...
- xur17 8y ago
  I hadn't heard of this before, but now I'm curious - do you have any more details on this?
  - marcosdumay 8y ago
    It was in 2013. And the international press seems to be much more focused on Petrobras, where the NSA stole a lot of data than Embraer where it just stole some emails. Here's a link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra...
meowface 8y ago
While it's nowhere near the scale of what China has done and is doing, NSA has engaged in industrial espionage to benefit the US economy as well. Few nations can say their hands are clean when it comes to this stuff.