22 ms·
Why your desk job is slowly killing you
- andre 16y agoEven if you exercise, the more hours a day you sit, the greater your risk of early death
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- steveplace 16y agoThe article. In 2009, Katzmarzyk studied the lifestyle habits of more than 17,000 men and women and found that the people who sat for almost the entire day were 54 percent more likely to end up clutching their chests than those who sat for almost none of the time.
- joshfinnie 16y agoHere is a link to Men's Health's 10 Standards to Access Your Fitness Level. http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/printer.php http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/printer.php It was linked in the article. It is very interesting, even if you workout some of these might be hard to obtain.
- rdamico 16y agoSeems pretty sensationalist to me. HN, please help debunk :)
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- hugh3 16y agoIt's true, but only in the sense that everything is killing you. What kind of non-desk job would you rather have? Perhaps a travelling salesman or delivery driver, spending hours every day on a dangerous road? A lumberjack, waiting for a horrendous chainsaw accident? Maybe a farmer or construction worker, out there in the sun all day acquiring skin cancer? A doctor in a hospital surrounded by infectious diseases? I suppose if you were rich enough to not have to work, like Howard Hughes, you could lock yourself away from anything that might kill you, like Howard Hughes. He died at 70.
- dasil003 16y agoThere's real research here with counterintuitive results that deserve honest attention. Given the amount of brainpower here and the typical hacker lifestyle, I'd say the risk of unwarranted rationalization is very high.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- rdamico 16y agoAnyone have success reducing the number of hours sitting down while still hacking just about all day/every day?
- jcromartie 16y agoYou can set up a stand-up desk arrangement. You will look like a weirdo if you try this in a cube farm, though (I am speaking from experience). It's better to have something that adjusts easily (like a counter-balanced monitor arm and keyboard tray). Ooh... like this! http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-US/default.aspx http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-US/def...
- andrewjshults 16y agoIn an open office configuration it's pretty nice. I have a "standing" desk at Dogpatch NYC (it's really just the standard Ikea desk all the way up + a printer box for my laptop) and beyond the general standing benefits (more mobility, less back pain, etc.) it's also nice to look up and not be staring at a screen and actually see what people are up to (which is mostly staring a screens). The main downside I've seen is that greater mobility makes the kitchen (which is only 15 feet away) way to easy to get to. I think I've replaced the extra calories I burn with more snacks.
- reedlaw 16y agoI have been working at a treadmill desk for around two months now. In the past two weeks I have walked over 60 miles at my desk. Usually I sit for only an hour or two during my work hours. I find walking while working very productive.
- toast76 16y agoI work from home, and have recently (month or so ago) set up a standing desk. I'm in here 7 days a week. It's actually great because I can walk in and out at night to check emails etc without having to sit down. My desk is an old coffee table top sitting on my keyboard stand (as in musical keyboard). I also have a stool for when the feet get sore, but I try not to use it too much.
- TheSOB88 16y agoI believe it, at least the general conclusion that sitting at a desk for 40 hours a week, plus sitting in your car for another 5-10, probably ain't that good for your health. It ain't what your body was designed to do.
- rubashov 16y ago> It ain't what your body was designed to do. The physical activity levels of hunter-gatherers is actually pretty low, day-to-day. They spend a lot of days sitting around.
- jimbokun 16y agoA fair amount of walking around and standing around, too, I would think. Certainly compared to the modern desk worker. Do you disagree?
- kiba 16y agoThe Modern Healthy Lifestyle Checklist is growing. 1. Barefoot running. (check for me) 2. Paleolithic diet. (nope) 3. Stand while hacking not siting. (nope) #3 is easy to implement, just put the chair in the other room. #1 is already done. #2 is hard to do because I don't make the choice to shop for X food plus potato chips are tasty.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- klochner 16y agoregarding #2, diet fads come and go every decade or so. imho the jury is still out.
- rue 16y agoIt also turned out that the actual paleo people did eat carbs: http://www.boingboing.net/2010/10/19/paleolithic-diet-inc.html http://www.boingboing.net/2010/10/19/paleolithic-diet-inc.ht... Of course, even if they had not, it does not mean that the paleo diet is somehow automatically better: the only conclusion that can be made is that it is an adequate diet to sustain a person.
- scotch_drinker 16y agoIt's a common misconception that the paleo diet means no carbs. It's just the type of carbs that they prescribe or proscribe. All plant matter is predominantly carbs and is where most of the carbs in our diet should come from. Breads, donuts, pancakes, sodas, etc are highly refined carbs that bear little resemblance to the carbs our paleolithic ancestors ate. On top of that, there is growing evidence that a grain based diet is highly detrimental to our health. Regarding cattail flour, there are several things to note. One, it was coarsely ground which is in direct contrast to the majority of flours that we currently consume. Whole grains are in general better than overly processed grains if you're going to eat grains. That being said, the evidence for our ancestors eating cattail flour comes in around 30,000 years ago. The Paleolithic period goes back 2.5 million years and the evolutionary history of our digestive habits is largely without any grains. Just because we have been eating grains for 30,000 years does not mean that's what we ate throughout the majority of our evolutionary history. I'm not a nutritionist but I do eat a predominantly lacto paleo diet and the changes in my body fat, sleep habits and energy levels have been extraordinary. Anecdotal? Yup but it can't hurt to give it a try. That's usually my advice on the paleo diet. Far from being a fad diet, it's much more like a lifestyle change that seems to make sense in my experience.
- tgriesser 16y agoI bet using something like a treadmill desk would help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPjN07JyVjo&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPjN07JyVjo&feature=playe... They say it works in the video for doing things like e-mail and phone calls... maybe it would work for things that require more concentration...I wonder if anyone has had experience doing something like this while writing code. Looks like a neat idea either way.
- kiba 16y agoStanding on your feet is an effective solution. Exercise is not necessary to effect health change. Even so, I find treadmill extremely annoying. I wouldn't use it for work. I run in the real world, and do it seriously.
- rsheridan6 16y agoI used to use a treadmill at about 3 mph while studying. I think you could code while walking at low speeds.
- adammichaelc 16y agoI wonder if this would have a negative impact on productivity. From what I understand, while you're exercising your brain is actually not operating at its optimal capacity. It is only after exercise that you get the beneficial effects. If you think about it from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes some sense. No use in thinking deeply while hunting; while hunting you just need to stay alive and kill your prey. But when you sit down to rest after a long day of hunting your brain is ready to think through more complex things (planning, etc.) I'm reading Spark right now and I'm pretty sure I read about the above in that book, but I can't find a source. If there's a neuroscientist on HN who is up-to-date with the literature, it'd be cool to hear your viewpoint on this.
- 83457 16y agoAnyone have a recommendation for an adjustable stand for monitor, keyboard and mouse that can sit low on a normal desk but raise up 1-2 feet use while standing? I'm not having any luck finding such a product.
- solson 16y agoFull disclosure... I work for Ergotron. But Workfit - S is exactly what you are describing and one of the most affordable on the market. http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-US/default.aspx http://www.ergotron.com/WorkFit/tabid/640/language/en-US/def...
- dmix 16y agoThe navigation on your site covers the content when you hover over them, then it doesn't go away when you move your mouse from the nav. The only way to make it go is to hover over "Home". This is bad usability.
- 83457 16y agosolson, That is exactly what I'm looking for. Had my fingers crossed (as always) for a lower price, though I'm sure it is well worth it. I looked around for an animation of the system and then noticed your videos which are hilarious. Thanks http://ergotron.com/tabid/649/language/en-US/default.aspx http://ergotron.com/tabid/649/language/en-US/default.aspx http://ergotron.com/tabid/553/language/en-US/default.aspx http://ergotron.com/tabid/553/language/en-US/default.aspx
- b3b0p 16y agoLooks nice. I love the price, but I don't want to have to mount my monitor for a few reasons. I've been contemplating a geekdesk for ages, but at ~$800... I can't bring myself to do it. I'm a little nomadic, live in a 1 bedroom, and not sure how it will fit in a Mini Cooper or smaller SUV trunk.
- klochner 16y agobuy a stool that lets you sit at the same height as standing, then just raise your desk.
- pyre 16y agoI imagine a lot of people will weigh in on standing desks, but what about just kneeling at a desk? Would that be better than sitting in a chair? What about working while in some sort of yoga position?
- rubashov 16y agoThe standing desk thing is silly. Just stroll around the block every few hours.
- mechanical_fish 16y agoI get paid for typing. Strolling, not so much. I don't mean to suggest that walking and thinking is useless. It's quite productive, actually. But theoretical hacking will only get you so far. Sooner or later you have to type things, and read the results, and read the manuals and blogs that explain the results, and I can't really do much of that while strolling around the block.
- rubashov 16y agoMust be a rough gig if you can't take ten minutes here and there. How do you poop?
- pyre 16y agoI think that the point of the article was that taking a stroll now and then does not offset the 'damage' done by sitting. They were pretty much tearing into the idea that you can offset the amount of sitting/inactivity in your life by exercising to try and create some sort of canceling or equilibrium effect.
- scotch_drinker 16y agoSeveral people have mentioned the Workfit which looks intriguing but I've also thought about getting a GeekDesk. Anyone have experience with either or both? http://www.geekdesk.com/ http://www.geekdesk.com/
- jfb 16y agoWe all have GeekDesks at work, and love them. I usually switch from sitting to standing once or twice a day (less so recently because I did my knee playing hoops), and it's a nice change. I got into the habit at Apple because I had a bad back and standing really relieved the discomfort; I'm thinking of getting a WorkFit for the house (because space is constrained.)
- audionerd 16y agoI recently saw a comparative review of budget standing desk options, and I wish I would have bookmarked it. It was from someone who had evaluated a ton of them, put them up as his own personal opinion. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
- niels_olson 16y agoDoc, here. I don't think the article is sensationalist at all. Here's a quick list of basic steps I recommend * standing desk: I love mine. 2x6 legs, 2x4 connecters, $50 at Home Depot, and 4 hours of work -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/niels_olson/5097452401/lightbox/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/niels_olson/5097452401/lightbox... * live close enough to work to walk or ride. Ride to the train or ferry if necessary. (I ride 17 miles, take a train, then another 4 miles) * Move to Southern California. I'm not kidding. * Strength: 50 low crunches, 5n pushups, m half-down pullups 50 side crunches, 5(n-1) pushups, m-2 half-down pullups 50 crunches, 5(n-2) pushups, m-4 half-down pullups 50 opposite side crunches, 5(n-3) pushups, m-6 half-down pullups 50 crunches Vary n and m to ability * Eat food, not too much, mostly plants. Michael Pollan, Unhappy Meals (Food, Inc; King Corn, and Omnivore's Dilemma condensed into one essay) --http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.... Join the Slow Food movement: http://www.slowfood.com/about_us/eng/manifesto.lasso http://www.slowfood.com/about_us/eng/manifesto.lasso Four books I'd like to see in every kitchen: * Deborah Madison, Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone (number one among vegetarians, but also the vegetable cookbook everyone should have) -- http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Cooking-Everyone-Deborah-Madison/dp/0767900146 http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Cooking-Everyone-Deborah-Ma... * Mark Bittman, Fish (If you can't cook fish after this, kill yourself) -- http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Complete-Guide-Buying-Cooking/dp/0028631528 http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Complete-Guide-Buying-Cooking/dp/... * Harold McGee, On Food and Cooking (unrivaled, in depth, the go-to resource for food hackers) -- http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0684800012 http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-Science-Lore-Kitchen/dp/0... * Julia Child, Mastering the Art of French Cooking (the original food hacker) -- http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Art-French-Cooking-Vol/dp/0375413405 http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Art-French-Cooking-Vol/dp/03...
- hyperbovine 16y agoBut, have you factored in the decreased life expectancy associated with biking 17 miles a day on the streets of Southern California? :-) Here in the Bay Area, we have bike lanes, and drivers that actually stop for you. Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone, AKA the Big Orange Book, is fantastic. The mushroom risotto recipe is to die for.
- anthuswilliams 16y agoThe researchers are comparing the time we spend walking against the time spent walking by a bunch of theme park actors they hired? How absurd. No doubt there were people in history who moved about more than we do. There were also people who moved far less than we do, on account of being snowed in all winter, or chained to a Lowell sewing machine. And I think our diet is on average, better than theirs was. I don't claim to know the causes of the increase in heart disease, but I know specious pop sociology when I see it.
- mechanical_fish 16y agoUntil very recently being snowed in all winter meant constantly feeding a fire with wood or coal. Splitting wood or carrying coal is a lot more work than typing. Meanwhile, I don't think you can assert that sewing at the professional level is approximately as sedentary as keyboard work without data. The cloth doesn't cut itself. It doesn't load itself. You are constantly moving your hands and arms. Until the advent of electrical controls the machines had to be clutched and unclutched by hand, even if the actual power came from a central belt drive system. And so on.
- evolvingstuff 16y agoA factor I would like to see controlled for would be the serum vitamin D levels of the subjects. I'm guessing that at least some of these findings could simply be the result of spending more time indoors.
- mrbogle 16y agoHow many of you can do all this (linked from OP http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/index.php?cm_mmc=MSNBC-_-Sentenced%20to%20the%20chair-_-Article-_-10%20Standards%20to%20assess%20your%20fitness%20level http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/be_fit/index.php?cm_mmc=MS...)? * Bench 1.5 Times Your Body Weight * Run 1.5 Miles in 10 Minutes * Touch the Rim * Leg-Press 2.25 Times Your Weight * Swim 700 Yards in 12 Minutes * Do 40 Pushups * Measure Up * Run 300 Yards Sub 1 Minute * Touch Your Toes * Toss a Basketball 75 Feet Kneeling A couple are pretty intense. I lift 3 days a week, climb, and do cardio 1-2 times a week. I cannot bench 285 (1.5x bw; my 5 RM @ 235), or squat 425 (2.25 bw; 5 RM @ 275). Also not sure about the swimming.
- potatolicious 16y agoAs a former swimmer, 700 yards in 12 minutes is 2.33 lengths per min, or 25 seconds a length sustained for 28 lengths. That's pretty aggressive for anyone who doesn't swim very often. Even a relatively fit person who doesn't swim all the time would have trouble hitting that. Even at my peak I could probably only pull 18s/length, and definitely can't sustain it for 28 lengths.
- wazoox 16y agoOn the other hand, 40 pushups are quite easy, 1.5 miles in 10 minutes really ordinary for the average runner, and 300 yards in 1 minute doable too. Go figure. Could it be complete baloney? :)
- zumbojo 16y agoCompanies that have vast numbers of adjustable desks (e.g. Fog Creek [1]): How many developers use them in standing mode vs. sitting mode? Do many pick a mode and stick with it forever, or do they change it up throughout the day? And how many who are normally sedentary switch for a few days following a story like this on HN (or the hailstorm of similar stories on Lifehacker not too long ago)? :-P Selfishly, my question can be boiled down to "build a standing desk or splurge on a GeekDesk?", but I am genuinely interested in how people use them long term. [1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMVeHFrgOpE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMVeHFrgOpE
- sliverstorm 16y agoThings like this make me question the wisdom in the career choice I am about to leap into headlong.
- akgerber 16y agoBike to work. I'm fresh out of college, at my first desk job. I'm in the best shape of my life. A commute is an exercise routine that you're not about to skip.
- sliverstorm 16y agoThe studies I've been reading indicate anything more than 3 hours of sitting begins to impact your life expectancy. I have no concerns as far as fitness goes, I'm very confident I'll be able to keep myself healthy in that respect.
- sliverstorm 16y agoSo this debunks the idea that sporadic gym excercise making up a small portion of your week is not enough to keep you healthy. But what about intense, all-day excursions on the weekends? The kind that keep your heart rate up all day long and leave you limp and beaten?
- brown9-2 16y agodebunks the idea that sporadic gym excercise making up a small portion of your week is not enough to keep you healthy Did you mean to include that "not" in there?
- addoway 16y agoCome on with this study. I have had a desk job all my life and ballooned up to 300lbs and then lost 120 lbs with the same desk job and only working out 2 hours a day. Most of my time is spent at the desk even if I do get up and walk around sometimes. Traders on Wall Street are on their feet 99% of the time and they have one of the most stressful jobs that lead to often health problems down the line. Why aren't they healthy when they are not sedentary? It's because there are other factors to take into consideration here.
- aufreak3 16y agoIsn't there some factor such as posture being left out here? What about monks who meditate in sitting position for very long stretches?
- konad 16y agoIn the US, 14 people a day die in the workplace.
- towelrod 16y agoI find it very hard to take this article seriously, since there are constant interruption with things like "Work your entire body in 15 minutes with these three moves for fast muscle" and "Tied to the treadmill? Try these seven ways to burn more fat on the belt". It reminds me very much of an old SNL skit with Jerry Seinfeld about "news-at-11" style reporting. I can't find a better link than this one: http://snltranscripts.jt.org/99/99anewswatch.phtml http://snltranscripts.jt.org/99/99anewswatch.phtml But the whole thing is filled with quotes like "Connor, it's no bark and all bite for golden retrievers and other so-called family dogs. What's causing these sweet and furry creatures to viciously attack sleeping toddlers? Stay, and we'll tell you in a minute.".
- gregwebs 16y agoCorrelation is not causality. It seems that all these studies are simply observing correlations. Some of the things in this article are just wrong. For example that sitting will cause "bad" forward pelvic tilt. Sitting generally eliminates forward pelvic tilt- which is the real problem. Forward pelvic tilt (sticking the but out) is the posture all humans used until recently in Western civilization. Also, the idea that sitting will make you fatter because you aren't burning calories is fairly silly. In that case, an hour at the gym would be able to make up for all your sitting. At any rate, most people's appetites/metabolism will simply adjust (read Good Calorie, Bad Calorie for an overview of the obesity evidence). All this being said, as a personal theory I consider sitting in a chair to be harmful. Any time civilization does something like this it usually has bad consequences. Sitting in chairs could be the number one thing we do that ruins our flexibility. Humans are supposed to be able to squat with their butt on the floor. Standing while working is a fine alternative (and a treadmill desk would seem even better). However, other postures are going to be required to start re-gaining natural flexibility. I am experimenting now with different postures- squatting, sitting on the ground, and standing with a bent back. It is possible to work at a computer while doing all of these.
- mayutana 16y agoWhat about sitting on an exercise ball? Have read quite a few articles in HN about the benefit of doing so.
- mayutana 16y agoIn the context of this study, does riding a bicycle in the normal seated position count as sitting?