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In the article they say they are offering London salaries. Fine. But Cardiff is not the same as London! London is huge comapred to Cardiff. Cardiff has about

In the article they say they are offering London salaries. Fine. But Cardiff is not the same as London! London is huge comapred to Cardiff. Cardiff has about 500,000 people in its urban area compared to 10,000,000 in London, and Cardiff is about 30 square miles compared to almost 700 square miles for London [1]. As such London just has a lot more going on - theatre, museums, nightlife, restaurants, sports, shopping, meet-ups, career-possibilities, transport, galleries... you name it there is more of it in London, and its also generally all very good or even world-class quality. Sure Cardiff has some stuff going on and has its own cultural & social activities, but it is in no way even in the same league as London by any stretch. As a result you're not going to lure someone to Cardiff by just matching London salaries - who would give up London to go to Cardiff to get the same salary but a culturally and socially moribund (by comparison) experience? You have to offer them something above and beyond. Not everyone likes hiking & nature, and I'd wager that most people in these salary ranges aren't that badly impacted by high property prices in London. Perhaps offer salaries that are more than London and then see if the applications start rolling in? 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London

celticninja 8y ago
Also Cardiff doesn't have London's high cost of living and ridiculous property prices. So if you get a London equivalent wage then you have a lot more disposable income if you live and work in Cardiff.
zimpenfish 8y ago
> who would give up London to go to Cardiff to get the same salary but a culturally and socially moribund (by comparison) experience? Me. But then I'd much prefer to have lots of open space around and orders of magnitude fewer people.
calyth2018 8y ago
Or this is the same kind on insanity that you see with the Bay Area? Or hell, even Vancouver. Everyone's rushing there for the same reason, with all the cultural things that's suppose to be going on in the big city, only to find that the high CoL make life actually quite a bit more difficult to enjoy. It gentrifies the area quickly, the commute is either long (in the case of the bay area) or being one of the sardine in the Tube. The disposable income ends up being lower, so there's less money to actually enjoy the things that actually attracted people to the cities.
- new_here 8y ago
  100%. London has become a tragedy of the commons.
golergka 8y ago
Judging from the Wikipedia, Cardiff metro area has about the same population as Tel Aviv, which still manages to host one of the world's hottest start up scenes.
- dagw 8y ago
  It's not a matter of population. Tel Aviv is probably the most interesting and happening city in that whole great region, while Cardiff isn't.
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    Not to mention e.g. transport links, and Brexit.
  - celticninja 8y ago
    Although your chances of dying in Cardiff are probably less than in Tel Aviv.
    - TomVDB 8y ago
      I looked that up back in the day when I had to go to Tel Aviv for work during the time of the suicide bombings (2004/2005): The chance of dying a violent death in Israel is much lower than in the US. Cardiff is probably lower than the average of the US, of course. And Tel Aviv may be higher than the average of Israel. But AFAIK, suicide bombing on regular civilian places inside Israel hasn’t been a thing for quite a while. https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/ https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/...
      - celticninja 8y ago
        Fair point. I'd argue it is still a tinderbox and with current middle East political situation it could easily find itself without immediate allies (or at least people who don't want to immediately destroy them). If for example the house of Saud fell, it is unlikely to be replaced by anything that would be as friendly toward the US, and by extension Israel, as the House of Saud currently is.
pjc50 8y ago
I'd seriously consider it, and I think a lot of other people would as well. People who are a bit older, a bit less sociable, or have families? Absolutely. Alternatively, new graduates who've not settled anywhere yet but would really like some money thrown at their overdraft. > most people in these salary ranges aren't that badly impacted by high property prices in London Everybody is impacted by high property prices in London, except the tax exiles with the empty mansions. I moved from Cambridge to Edinburgh and benefited greatly from the lower property prices. However, as others point out, this seems to be fraudulent advertising: all the advertised positions are £60k. Where's the £100k coming from? Did they only have one post at that range which is now filled? There does seem to be a sudden hiring boom going on in the UK, which I'm curious about - applicants are hard to find and advertised salaries are up. Alternatively is this the consequence of Brexit-induced skilled staff supply shortages? (Pet peeve: it should be mandatory for job adverts to post a salary range, even if it's a really wide one)
- mkingston 8y ago
  I found Cambridge salaries weren't wonderful in general, though I'm aware that's probably changing, and there are exceptions. How have you found Edinburgh salaries compare? Obviously I don't expect data, just an anecdote would satisfy my curiosity.
dvdcxn 8y ago
You're projecting your own perception onto others. Let me raise a counterpoint, the cost of living in Cardiff is vastly less than the, frankly, over inflated prices in London. I'm going to reuse your tone here - who would give up Cardiff to go to London to get the same Salary but pay twice as much for rent? I'd raise another point as well - you're assuming people prefer the art and culture scene in London in comparison to a more local scene in a smaller city where gentrification isn't as ubiquitious. I'd rather live in Glasgow, where anyone can afford to go to a club or gig than London, where such activities are generally reserved for rich kids.
- wmonk 8y ago
  > who would give up Cardiff to go to London to get the same Salary but pay twice as much for rent? Clearly nobody... which is what they are talking about in the article.
  - IshKebab 8y ago
    That's because the £100k is a lie though.
- mattlondon 8y ago
  You're totally correct - its not for everyone (just like Cardiff is not for everyone). London is a big city and comes with big city problems. However, I'd still argue that their offer is clearly not competitive by matching London salaries since they are not getting applicants. For what it is worth, in my personal opinion if you are renting on 100K a year, you're Doing It Wrong. I appreciate some people value the flexibility of renting though. Saving up for a mortgage deposit with £100K a year salary and equity grants etc should be no problems, and mortgage repayments are usually either equal or substantially lower than rental rates for equivalent properties. Even in London, a commute of just 25 minutes from central London [2] you can buy a one bed flat for 250-300K which is very affordable on a 100K a year salary. [1] 1 - https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=STATION%5E3506&minBedrooms=1&radius=1.0&sortType=1&propertyTypes=flat&primaryDisplayPropertyType=flats&includeSSTC=false&dontShow=retirement https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?loca... 2 - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Trafalgar+Square,+Trafalgar+Square,+London/@51.5545237,-0.2291448,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x48761754f03c34dd:0x9509ee771db17ec6!2m2!1d-0.1924272!2d51.60105!1m5!1m1!1s0x487604ce3941eb1f:0x1a5342fdf089c627!2m2!1d-0.128069!2d51.508039!3e3 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Tra...
biztos 8y ago
> you name it there is more of it in London Welsh speakers? (Probably not a big factor in recruiting, but still...)
DrNuke 8y ago
> London is huge compared to Cardiff Yes, so many more rats running the same race on the same overcrowded facilities? Cardiff is a nice city and the same London money is worth two times more there.
notahacker 8y ago
Every other industry manages to find hires in Cardiff on less than London salaries, and programmers aren't that special in terms of cultural needs. A London salary in Cardiff is a lot more disposable income than a London salary in London (or an owned large house rather than a rented apartment), and plenty of programmers that wouldn't start their search for their next job in Cardiff would see that as tempting if they were aware the company was keen to hire people like them at London salaries. Of course that's part of the reason companies spend budget on headhunters rather than extra salary...
Jmcdd 8y ago
+1 hour commutes on the tube, rude people, diesel fumes, outrageous rental prices. I could go on but I'm at work. This country cares WAY too much about London.
briffle 8y ago
Or even better than just increasing salaries.. Let people work remote. Then people who want to live in the big city can (without the commute, which is a plus!) and people that want to live in the small town can, plus everyone in between. What part of being a programmer means they 'need' to be in the office in that town?

celticninja 8y ago

Also Cardiff doesn't have London's high cost of living and ridiculous property prices. So if you get a London equivalent wage then you have a lot more disposable income if you live and work in Cardiff.

zimpenfish 8y ago

> who would give up London to go to Cardiff to get the same salary but a culturally and socially moribund (by comparison) experience? Me. But then I'd much prefer to have lots of open space around and orders of magnitude fewer people.

calyth2018 8y ago

Or this is the same kind on insanity that you see with the Bay Area? Or hell, even Vancouver. Everyone's rushing there for the same reason, with all the cultural things that's suppose to be going on in the big city, only to find that the high CoL make life actually quite a bit more difficult to enjoy. It gentrifies the area quickly, the commute is either long (in the case of the bay area) or being one of the sardine in the Tube. The disposable income ends up being lower, so there's less money to actually enjoy the things that actually attracted people to the cities.

new_here 8y ago
100%. London has become a tragedy of the commons.

golergka 8y ago

Judging from the Wikipedia, Cardiff metro area has about the same population as Tel Aviv, which still manages to host one of the world's hottest start up scenes.

dagw 8y ago
It's not a matter of population. Tel Aviv is probably the most interesting and happening city in that whole great region, while Cardiff isn't.
- guitarbill 8y ago
  Not to mention e.g. transport links, and Brexit.
- celticninja 8y ago
  Although your chances of dying in Cardiff are probably less than in Tel Aviv.
  - TomVDB 8y ago
    I looked that up back in the day when I had to go to Tel Aviv for work during the time of the suicide bombings (2004/2005): The chance of dying a violent death in Israel is much lower than in the US. Cardiff is probably lower than the average of the US, of course. And Tel Aviv may be higher than the average of Israel. But AFAIK, suicide bombing on regular civilian places inside Israel hasn’t been a thing for quite a while. https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/ https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/...
    - celticninja 8y ago
      Fair point. I'd argue it is still a tinderbox and with current middle East political situation it could easily find itself without immediate allies (or at least people who don't want to immediately destroy them). If for example the house of Saud fell, it is unlikely to be replaced by anything that would be as friendly toward the US, and by extension Israel, as the House of Saud currently is.

pjc50 8y ago

I'd seriously consider it, and I think a lot of other people would as well. People who are a bit older, a bit less sociable, or have families? Absolutely. Alternatively, new graduates who've not settled anywhere yet but would really like some money thrown at their overdraft. > most people in these salary ranges aren't that badly impacted by high property prices in London Everybody is impacted by high property prices in London, except the tax exiles with the empty mansions. I moved from Cambridge to Edinburgh and benefited greatly from the lower property prices. However, as others point out, this seems to be fraudulent advertising: all the advertised positions are £60k. Where's the £100k coming from? Did they only have one post at that range which is now filled? There does seem to be a sudden hiring boom going on in the UK, which I'm curious about - applicants are hard to find and advertised salaries are up. Alternatively is this the consequence of Brexit-induced skilled staff supply shortages? (Pet peeve: it should be mandatory for job adverts to post a salary range, even if it's a really wide one)

mkingston 8y ago
I found Cambridge salaries weren't wonderful in general, though I'm aware that's probably changing, and there are exceptions. How have you found Edinburgh salaries compare? Obviously I don't expect data, just an anecdote would satisfy my curiosity.

dvdcxn 8y ago

You're projecting your own perception onto others. Let me raise a counterpoint, the cost of living in Cardiff is vastly less than the, frankly, over inflated prices in London. I'm going to reuse your tone here - who would give up Cardiff to go to London to get the same Salary but pay twice as much for rent? I'd raise another point as well - you're assuming people prefer the art and culture scene in London in comparison to a more local scene in a smaller city where gentrification isn't as ubiquitious. I'd rather live in Glasgow, where anyone can afford to go to a club or gig than London, where such activities are generally reserved for rich kids.

wmonk 8y ago
> who would give up Cardiff to go to London to get the same Salary but pay twice as much for rent? Clearly nobody... which is what they are talking about in the article.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  That's because the £100k is a lie though.
mattlondon 8y ago
You're totally correct - its not for everyone (just like Cardiff is not for everyone). London is a big city and comes with big city problems. However, I'd still argue that their offer is clearly not competitive by matching London salaries since they are not getting applicants. For what it is worth, in my personal opinion if you are renting on 100K a year, you're Doing It Wrong. I appreciate some people value the flexibility of renting though. Saving up for a mortgage deposit with £100K a year salary and equity grants etc should be no problems, and mortgage repayments are usually either equal or substantially lower than rental rates for equivalent properties. Even in London, a commute of just 25 minutes from central London [2] you can buy a one bed flat for 250-300K which is very affordable on a 100K a year salary. [1] 1 - https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=STATION%5E3506&minBedrooms=1&radius=1.0&sortType=1&propertyTypes=flat&primaryDisplayPropertyType=flats&includeSSTC=false&dontShow=retirement https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?loca... 2 - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Trafalgar+Square,+Trafalgar+Square,+London/@51.5545237,-0.2291448,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x48761754f03c34dd:0x9509ee771db17ec6!2m2!1d-0.1924272!2d51.60105!1m5!1m1!1s0x487604ce3941eb1f:0x1a5342fdf089c627!2m2!1d-0.128069!2d51.508039!3e3 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Tra...

biztos 8y ago

> you name it there is more of it in London Welsh speakers? (Probably not a big factor in recruiting, but still...)

DrNuke 8y ago

> London is huge compared to Cardiff Yes, so many more rats running the same race on the same overcrowded facilities? Cardiff is a nice city and the same London money is worth two times more there.

notahacker 8y ago

Every other industry manages to find hires in Cardiff on less than London salaries, and programmers aren't that special in terms of cultural needs. A London salary in Cardiff is a lot more disposable income than a London salary in London (or an owned large house rather than a rented apartment), and plenty of programmers that wouldn't start their search for their next job in Cardiff would see that as tempting if they were aware the company was keen to hire people like them at London salaries. Of course that's part of the reason companies spend budget on headhunters rather than extra salary...

Jmcdd 8y ago

+1 hour commutes on the tube, rude people, diesel fumes, outrageous rental prices. I could go on but I'm at work. This country cares WAY too much about London.

briffle 8y ago

Or even better than just increasing salaries.. Let people work remote. Then people who want to live in the big city can (without the commute, which is a plus!) and people that want to live in the small town can, plus everyone in between. What part of being a programmer means they 'need' to be in the office in that town?