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The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do mu

by narzu 8y ago

The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better.

mnx 8y ago
Invent better drugs?
- geff82 8y ago
  Invent a better way of life so reality is the coolest thing possible.
  - mbrock 8y ago
    There’s nothing other than reality. Drugs are part of reality. Have been for millenia.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Define "coolest". If parts of reality are better than others this is probably due to internal responses. Every bit of sense-data modifies the internal brain state. It follows that with sufficient control we can modify the brain, or the sense-data to create an experience akin to the coolest parts of whatever way of life we make. Your considerations on whether synthetic reality is better, and whether all reality is effectively synthetic will then inform your conclusion on this meaning a modified view can always in theory beat reality. In practice one will probably just chase a bigger high until the high is so risky that it eventually kills you.
  - deathclassic 8y ago
    Drugs are the some of tools I use to make reality the coolest thing possible.
CosmicSteve 8y ago
We can do much better? What the hell does that mean? More drug prohibition? Yeah, that's been working out just peachy. Portugal's decriminalization of all drugs has led to a sharp drop across the board in drug usage and an increase in effective rehabilitative outcomes.
- rv-de 8y ago
  I believe that we should expect responsible behavior from adults. Only this way a society can also develop responsibility. By prohibiting everything that is dangerous (or just considered as such) humans never actually get a chance to grow up.
  - umvi 8y ago
    It's sort of a balancing act between building safety rails so that people don't accidentally fall off cliffs while hiking while also allowing people the agency to free climb El Cap if they so choose...
    - rv-de 8y ago
      You totally make a valid point. But I would literally remove all those safety rails. People just have to keep a safe distance from the edge of the cliff.
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        Isn't it likely that the rails were put in place as a response to people not keeping a safe distance from the edge of the cliff? I often see this assumption that regulations appear from thin air as a way to keep people down. It seems more possible that they primarily come as a result of witnessing the reality of what happens with no regulations.
        rv-de 8y ago
        I think the prevalent assumption on HN is that every regulation can be traced back to some accident or mistake. It is impossible to put safety rails everywhere (both literally and metaphorically). Some people will try to make selfies on the edge and fall to their death - very tragic - but why do I have to keep those people alive with my tax payments or even be annoyed from the sight of a rail in the middle of nature. I also think that most accidents happen from overtrusting a safety gear - safety rails would sometimes fail. Typical example is the safety belt in cars - people suddenly drove faster. Or with helmets - rugby is less physically harmful than American football due to less protection. The examples refer to the mindset, though - of course I use safety belts but I also don't get too close to the edge of a cliff.
zaroth 8y ago
“Do much better” is a platitude - it conveys zero information as to what you actually believe should be done differently.
- narzu 8y ago
  We should move towards the elimination of all drugs. Prohibition has worked wonderfully well for tobacco in many countries, cutting consumption in half and even more.
  - geff82 8y ago
    I just upvoted your comment because it is the truth and most probably you will be heavily downvoted for not being mainstream :)
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      It is literally false. There are only two countries with actual tobacco prohibition, Bhutan and Turkmenistan, and only since 2005 and 2016, respectively. We have decades of evidence from dozens of countries that total prohibition of recreational drugs is disastrous. Sensible regulation is what's needed.
  - sigi45 8y ago
    And? It is not your choice to tell me if I wanna get buzzed or not. I don't mind others smoking. I mind wrong advertising, advertising to kids, cigarettbutts, the stink etc.
    - narzo 8y ago
      Actually yes, it's society's choice to tell you what you can do or not. Deal with it, or maybe go to live to Liberland.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
chickenfries 8y ago
Prohibition doesn’t work. Legalization and regulation do. Alcohol and Tobacco are the proof. We can do much better than a cure which has shown to be worse than the disease.
- geff82 8y ago
  Legalization mostly works in the way that more people consume it. (punishing the use does not lead anywhere either).
  - bryanlarsen 8y ago
    There are very definitely ways to do decriminalization that result in lowered usage: Portugal and heroin is the standard example.
  - sergiosgc 8y ago
    This was proven false by the Portuguese drug decriminalization program.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Decriminalization is not legalization, though. It still makes it harder to access the stuff, for example, and risky to grow your own. Not that it's especially hard to buy pot in Portugal, but still, can't exactly get it at the corner store.
  - krrrh 8y ago
    Legalization of cannabis in the The Netherlands lowered usage amongst teens. Making pot less accessible to teens was one of Trudeau’s primary arguments for legalization in Canada. Street dealers have a lot of reasons to not ask for ID.
jerf 8y ago
We have done much better. Look at tobacco usage. It hasn't plummeted because it was outlawed. I don't think we'd necessarily get the same plummet with marijuana, because the health story isn't quite as uniformly bad, and I get the sense that pot users don't get as acclimated as cigarette users, who seem to be smoking not to feel good but to avoid withdrawal. (Just on the drug's own terms, tobacco is a really bad deal; the ratio of "high" to harm is just atrocious. If it wasn't so addictive nobody would use it on a regular basis.) But we could probably get some improvement if the messaging got more realistic. And by "improvement" I don't just mean "less", but better; less adolescents smoking some of their most important cognitive years away, more people using THC for correct medicinal uses, and if one chooses to smoke it recreationally, better informed choices. I'm in favor of legalization, because marijuana prohibition is not as bad as alcohol prohibition was, but it's the same sort of thing even if less of it. I still plan on telling my children quite strongly the best move is not to play.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  as an ex-smoker who sometimes relapses for short periods, for me it's not to avoid withdrawal. It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts.
  - chosenbreed 8y ago
    > It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts. Should we really need excuses to step out of the office to get some fresh air, collect our thoughts, etc for a few minutes? I think there is much to be said about cigarettes relieving stress and anxiety...
    - ThePadawan 8y ago
      As often as it is mocked, this is one of the things I really value in the whole "micro kitchens away from the open-plan office" lies.
    - 8y ago
sigi45 8y ago
Legalizing is doing better. Also society doesn't has the right to keep some drugs illegal while keeping others legal. Stop criminalising someone who chose another drug than you prefer. Illegal should it be when it harms others.
- geff82 8y ago
  There is a big difference between criminalising/punishing people and hyping drugs as all those cannabis activists do. Smoking may be your personal choice - but I honestly think it would be bad for society if the majority did it. There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer.
  - folkrav 8y ago
    Those "cannabis activists" are most likely a (very vocal) minority... I don't know of anyone that _seriously_ hypes pot as a safe thing, and we have a lot of smokers here in Quebec (last official numbers were ~15% in 2015, pretty sure it's actually higher than that), so it's not hard to find one. There was probably "alcohol activists" back in prohibition, so I'd say this could also be a side-effect of its illegal status. > There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished There was also a law that prohibited alcohol for a time. I am also prohibited under Canadian law from pretending to practice witchcraft. Talking about differences, there is a big difference between legal and legitimate.
  - josefresco 8y ago
    "There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer." Hate to break it to you, but the "war on drugs" was and is really a war on minorities, and a war against alternatives to prescription drugs (among about a half dozen other nefarious reasons). When I was 12 I would have believed that "drugs are bad and what's why they're illegal" - I'm no longer 12.
  - sigi45 8y ago
    You know why its getting hyped? Because its fucking illegal! Have you ever seen a protestor doing a slightly active protest? No. You hype it. Srsly make it legal, disallow certain ways of advertising it, done.
mcny 8y ago
> The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better. You're right. We can do better. I think it shows our hypocrisy. Nobody should get a fine or go to prison for possession of drugs. I think what we should focus on is distribution/sale of controlled substances without a proper label. I don't do drugs so maybe I am out of touch but this is my opinion. Possession of anything should not be a crime (improper storage of hazardous material is a different story). If you insist on sending people to prison for smoking pot, you might as well get ready to send me to prison for eating too much candy.
- narzo 8y ago
  There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled.
  - pennaMan 8y ago
    You seem to be aggressively pushing a political agenda in this thread by making several consistent generalist statements without providing a single source of evidence.
  - mcny 8y ago
    > There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled. I think you are moving the goal posts here. For one, I fully support regulation. By regulation, I mean education and truth in advertising. People should absolutely have their assets stripped and sent to prison for life for false advertising and bribing/intimidating researchers to produce bad science or knowingly lying about their products in general. Additionally, I am not talking about putting people in prison for selling mislabeled candy. I absolutely support legislation that sends people to prison for life for selling candy that is not labeled properly or has a labeling inconsistent with its contents. I am talking about imprisoning ME for possessing sugar and caffeine-ridden products that I intend to eat or serve to my guests at home. Are you willing to arrest me for eating candy? Are you willing to search me "randomly" on the streets because you think I have candy in my pockets?
stmfreak 8y ago
The fact that my kids can get illegal drugs more easily than alcohol is what worries me. Making drugs illegal isn’t helping. Addicts need support services, not punishment.
- noobly 8y ago
  This. Drug dealers don't care if you're 7 or 70. I could get a dimebag in 5 minutes anytime in high school. Alcohol, on the other hand, took weeks of planning to obtain.
mylons 8y ago
legislating morality isn't much better. it's draconian and often theocratic.
thrower123 8y ago
Tobacco shows probably the most effective way to reduce consumption of something - make it legal, but put heavy sin taxes on it. It's hard to keep a heavy cigarette habit going when a pack of Marlboros is like $10. I don't smoke marijuana, but I'd like to see it legalized, if for no other reason than to shift law enforcement resources to more important things - when people are dying every day from Fentanyl overdoses, busting pot smokers and growers is asinine.
- josefresco 8y ago
  Heavy taxing and regulation will be (and is) a boon to the cannabis black market. In my state (MA), cannabis was legalized, but individual towns are preventing recreational shops from opening. The result? A booming, home-grown cannabis market.
Taylor_OD 8y ago
Why? Why shouldnt we legalize all drugs that are healthier than drugs we have already deemed healthy enough to be legal?
honkycat 8y ago
Humans have always done drugs. We have smoked pot specifically for thousands of years. Why do you want to keep adults from making decisions about what to put into their body?
passwordreset 8y ago
That argument is backwards. If marijuana is illegal for the stated reason that it has negative health affects, then everything that has worse affects should also be illegal.
int_19h 8y ago
Sure, we can do much better. For example, how about we recognize that bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right, and that includes deciding what to put into said body?

by narzu 8y ago

The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better.

mnx 8y ago

Invent better drugs?

geff82 8y ago
Invent a better way of life so reality is the coolest thing possible.
- mbrock 8y ago
  There’s nothing other than reality. Drugs are part of reality. Have been for millenia.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Define "coolest". If parts of reality are better than others this is probably due to internal responses. Every bit of sense-data modifies the internal brain state. It follows that with sufficient control we can modify the brain, or the sense-data to create an experience akin to the coolest parts of whatever way of life we make. Your considerations on whether synthetic reality is better, and whether all reality is effectively synthetic will then inform your conclusion on this meaning a modified view can always in theory beat reality. In practice one will probably just chase a bigger high until the high is so risky that it eventually kills you.
- deathclassic 8y ago
  Drugs are the some of tools I use to make reality the coolest thing possible.

CosmicSteve 8y ago

We can do much better? What the hell does that mean? More drug prohibition? Yeah, that's been working out just peachy. Portugal's decriminalization of all drugs has led to a sharp drop across the board in drug usage and an increase in effective rehabilitative outcomes.

rv-de 8y ago
I believe that we should expect responsible behavior from adults. Only this way a society can also develop responsibility. By prohibiting everything that is dangerous (or just considered as such) humans never actually get a chance to grow up.
- umvi 8y ago
  It's sort of a balancing act between building safety rails so that people don't accidentally fall off cliffs while hiking while also allowing people the agency to free climb El Cap if they so choose...
  - rv-de 8y ago
    You totally make a valid point. But I would literally remove all those safety rails. People just have to keep a safe distance from the edge of the cliff.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      Isn't it likely that the rails were put in place as a response to people not keeping a safe distance from the edge of the cliff? I often see this assumption that regulations appear from thin air as a way to keep people down. It seems more possible that they primarily come as a result of witnessing the reality of what happens with no regulations.
      - rv-de 8y ago
        I think the prevalent assumption on HN is that every regulation can be traced back to some accident or mistake. It is impossible to put safety rails everywhere (both literally and metaphorically). Some people will try to make selfies on the edge and fall to their death - very tragic - but why do I have to keep those people alive with my tax payments or even be annoyed from the sight of a rail in the middle of nature. I also think that most accidents happen from overtrusting a safety gear - safety rails would sometimes fail. Typical example is the safety belt in cars - people suddenly drove faster. Or with helmets - rugby is less physically harmful than American football due to less protection. The examples refer to the mindset, though - of course I use safety belts but I also don't get too close to the edge of a cliff.

zaroth 8y ago

“Do much better” is a platitude - it conveys zero information as to what you actually believe should be done differently.

narzu 8y ago
We should move towards the elimination of all drugs. Prohibition has worked wonderfully well for tobacco in many countries, cutting consumption in half and even more.
- geff82 8y ago
  I just upvoted your comment because it is the truth and most probably you will be heavily downvoted for not being mainstream :)
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    It is literally false. There are only two countries with actual tobacco prohibition, Bhutan and Turkmenistan, and only since 2005 and 2016, respectively. We have decades of evidence from dozens of countries that total prohibition of recreational drugs is disastrous. Sensible regulation is what's needed.
- sigi45 8y ago
  And? It is not your choice to tell me if I wanna get buzzed or not. I don't mind others smoking. I mind wrong advertising, advertising to kids, cigarettbutts, the stink etc.
  - narzo 8y ago
    Actually yes, it's society's choice to tell you what you can do or not. Deal with it, or maybe go to live to Liberland.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

chickenfries 8y ago

Prohibition doesn’t work. Legalization and regulation do. Alcohol and Tobacco are the proof. We can do much better than a cure which has shown to be worse than the disease.

geff82 8y ago
Legalization mostly works in the way that more people consume it. (punishing the use does not lead anywhere either).
- bryanlarsen 8y ago
  There are very definitely ways to do decriminalization that result in lowered usage: Portugal and heroin is the standard example.
- sergiosgc 8y ago
  This was proven false by the Portuguese drug decriminalization program.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Decriminalization is not legalization, though. It still makes it harder to access the stuff, for example, and risky to grow your own. Not that it's especially hard to buy pot in Portugal, but still, can't exactly get it at the corner store.
- krrrh 8y ago
  Legalization of cannabis in the The Netherlands lowered usage amongst teens. Making pot less accessible to teens was one of Trudeau’s primary arguments for legalization in Canada. Street dealers have a lot of reasons to not ask for ID.

jerf 8y ago

We have done much better. Look at tobacco usage. It hasn't plummeted because it was outlawed. I don't think we'd necessarily get the same plummet with marijuana, because the health story isn't quite as uniformly bad, and I get the sense that pot users don't get as acclimated as cigarette users, who seem to be smoking not to feel good but to avoid withdrawal. (Just on the drug's own terms, tobacco is a really bad deal; the ratio of "high" to harm is just atrocious. If it wasn't so addictive nobody would use it on a regular basis.) But we could probably get some improvement if the messaging got more realistic. And by "improvement" I don't just mean "less", but better; less adolescents smoking some of their most important cognitive years away, more people using THC for correct medicinal uses, and if one chooses to smoke it recreationally, better informed choices. I'm in favor of legalization, because marijuana prohibition is not as bad as alcohol prohibition was, but it's the same sort of thing even if less of it. I still plan on telling my children quite strongly the best move is not to play.

beaconstudios 8y ago
as an ex-smoker who sometimes relapses for short periods, for me it's not to avoid withdrawal. It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts.
- chosenbreed 8y ago
  > It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts. Should we really need excuses to step out of the office to get some fresh air, collect our thoughts, etc for a few minutes? I think there is much to be said about cigarettes relieving stress and anxiety...
  - ThePadawan 8y ago
    As often as it is mocked, this is one of the things I really value in the whole "micro kitchens away from the open-plan office" lies.
  - 8y ago

sigi45 8y ago

Legalizing is doing better. Also society doesn't has the right to keep some drugs illegal while keeping others legal. Stop criminalising someone who chose another drug than you prefer. Illegal should it be when it harms others.

geff82 8y ago
There is a big difference between criminalising/punishing people and hyping drugs as all those cannabis activists do. Smoking may be your personal choice - but I honestly think it would be bad for society if the majority did it. There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer.
- folkrav 8y ago
  Those "cannabis activists" are most likely a (very vocal) minority... I don't know of anyone that _seriously_ hypes pot as a safe thing, and we have a lot of smokers here in Quebec (last official numbers were ~15% in 2015, pretty sure it's actually higher than that), so it's not hard to find one. There was probably "alcohol activists" back in prohibition, so I'd say this could also be a side-effect of its illegal status. > There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished There was also a law that prohibited alcohol for a time. I am also prohibited under Canadian law from pretending to practice witchcraft. Talking about differences, there is a big difference between legal and legitimate.
- josefresco 8y ago
  "There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer." Hate to break it to you, but the "war on drugs" was and is really a war on minorities, and a war against alternatives to prescription drugs (among about a half dozen other nefarious reasons). When I was 12 I would have believed that "drugs are bad and what's why they're illegal" - I'm no longer 12.
- sigi45 8y ago
  You know why its getting hyped? Because its fucking illegal! Have you ever seen a protestor doing a slightly active protest? No. You hype it. Srsly make it legal, disallow certain ways of advertising it, done.

mcny 8y ago

> The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better. You're right. We can do better. I think it shows our hypocrisy. Nobody should get a fine or go to prison for possession of drugs. I think what we should focus on is distribution/sale of controlled substances without a proper label. I don't do drugs so maybe I am out of touch but this is my opinion. Possession of anything should not be a crime (improper storage of hazardous material is a different story). If you insist on sending people to prison for smoking pot, you might as well get ready to send me to prison for eating too much candy.

narzo 8y ago
There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled.
- pennaMan 8y ago
  You seem to be aggressively pushing a political agenda in this thread by making several consistent generalist statements without providing a single source of evidence.
- mcny 8y ago
  > There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled. I think you are moving the goal posts here. For one, I fully support regulation. By regulation, I mean education and truth in advertising. People should absolutely have their assets stripped and sent to prison for life for false advertising and bribing/intimidating researchers to produce bad science or knowingly lying about their products in general. Additionally, I am not talking about putting people in prison for selling mislabeled candy. I absolutely support legislation that sends people to prison for life for selling candy that is not labeled properly or has a labeling inconsistent with its contents. I am talking about imprisoning ME for possessing sugar and caffeine-ridden products that I intend to eat or serve to my guests at home. Are you willing to arrest me for eating candy? Are you willing to search me "randomly" on the streets because you think I have candy in my pockets?

stmfreak 8y ago

The fact that my kids can get illegal drugs more easily than alcohol is what worries me. Making drugs illegal isn’t helping. Addicts need support services, not punishment.

noobly 8y ago
This. Drug dealers don't care if you're 7 or 70. I could get a dimebag in 5 minutes anytime in high school. Alcohol, on the other hand, took weeks of planning to obtain.

mylons 8y ago

legislating morality isn't much better. it's draconian and often theocratic.

thrower123 8y ago

Tobacco shows probably the most effective way to reduce consumption of something - make it legal, but put heavy sin taxes on it. It's hard to keep a heavy cigarette habit going when a pack of Marlboros is like $10. I don't smoke marijuana, but I'd like to see it legalized, if for no other reason than to shift law enforcement resources to more important things - when people are dying every day from Fentanyl overdoses, busting pot smokers and growers is asinine.

josefresco 8y ago
Heavy taxing and regulation will be (and is) a boon to the cannabis black market. In my state (MA), cannabis was legalized, but individual towns are preventing recreational shops from opening. The result? A booming, home-grown cannabis market.

Taylor_OD 8y ago

Why? Why shouldnt we legalize all drugs that are healthier than drugs we have already deemed healthy enough to be legal?

honkycat 8y ago

Humans have always done drugs. We have smoked pot specifically for thousands of years. Why do you want to keep adults from making decisions about what to put into their body?

passwordreset 8y ago

That argument is backwards. If marijuana is illegal for the stated reason that it has negative health affects, then everything that has worse affects should also be illegal.

int_19h 8y ago

Sure, we can do much better. For example, how about we recognize that bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right, and that includes deciding what to put into said body?