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I always wonder when I read about salaries in other countries - what do the numbers usually mean? Not sure if this is how it works everywhere, but where I live,

I always wonder when I read about salaries in other countries - what do the numbers usually mean? Not sure if this is how it works everywhere, but where I live, we have 3 different ways of talking about salary: 1) What you actually get 2) What you actually get + what you pay in taxes 3) What you actually get + what you pay in taxes + what your employer pays in taxes Usually we talk about #2 when discussing salaries. So if somebody says they make 1000€/month, it generally means that they get 871€ every month in the bank, and their employer actually needs to pay 1338€ ever month in salary + taxes. Can anyone shed some light on whether this is the same everywhere? Like if somebody in Silicon Valley says they make $200k/year, is that their "#2" number? Edit: Adding my own #2 history as well (software dev in Estonia), in case anybody is interested: 2015 - junior at employer A - 12 000€ 2015 - mid-level at employer A - 21 204€ 2016 - mid-level at employer B - 26 400€ 2017 - senior at employer B - 30 000€ 2017 - senior at employer C - 48 000€ 2018 - senior at employer D - 58 500€ In my experience, it's very hard to get better salary without changing jobs all the time, so if you know of a company with good perks, it's better to change your job a bunch of times before ending up there (so you can start there with a relatively good salary) - at least, that's what I ended up doing.

jjeaff 8y ago
Yes, almost always number 2. Number 1 only when they specify "take home pay" and almost never number 3. Because the total amount your employer pays is not readily available nor easy to calculate.
- humanrebar 8y ago
  Every employer I have worked for has given me number 3 in writing at least once a year. EDIT: Though, come to think of it, that number doesn't include some employer paid payroll taxes. But it's simple enough to multiply by 1.N
CalRobert 8y ago
People in the US almost always quote salary in terms of gross amounts - so if someone makes $200k, that's before tax. But it's not including the employer taxes. I.e. their paycheck will show $16,666 per month at the top line, a bunch of state, federal, maybe local taxes, disability and social security (also basically taxes), etc. and then roughly $10,500 at the bottom line depending on your situation.\ Edit: sometimes people include stock in their pay. This can be perfectly reasonable (guaranteed grants in a publicly traded company) or complete BS (pretending your startup will sell for 1B+ even though you might as well just buy lottery tickets)
- hoaw 8y ago
  I think most countries does this. Of course that doesn't make the amount comparable between countries. It is mainly for practical reasons since that is the salary you negotiate for i.e. the amount they pay you (though in many countries the employer would deduct income taxes). In general I think a decent starting point, for higher salaries, tends to be what one can save. Because then people will often instinctively start asking for the bigger picture.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
apexalpha 8y ago
My #2 = €45k or so, but in my country (Netherlands) this number, usually, doesn't include pension contributions which are 6k a year in my firm. I don't actually know how much #3 is. But my #1 = (2330 * 12) * 1,125% (end of year bonus).
- tobyhinloopen 8y ago
  Geen Vakantiegeld?
  - apexalpha 8y ago
    Zit in die 12,5%!
    - tobyhinloopen 8y ago
      Ah, dus ~4% "jaarbonus" naast 8% vakantiegeld. Nog niet eerder gezien, is dat gebruikelijk? Je krijgt 56% belasting over bonussen toch? Kunnen ze het niet beter in je salaris stoppen, zodat je gewoon "normaal" (42%?) belastingtarief betaalt?
      - apexalpha 8y ago
        Het is salaris, je mag zelf kiezen of je het in één keer in december wil over verspreid elke maand. Daarnaast kun je van die 4% extra ook pensioen inleggen (bruto), vakantie kopen etc.. Naast dit alles nog winstdeling, die is indd 49% belast en erg veriabel.
      - IkmoIkmo 8y ago
        Salaris en bonussen worden exact hetzelfde belast bij de jaarlijkse afrekening, net als je vakantiegeld en je eindejaarsuitkering. Allemaal hetzelfde. Echter wordt er gedurende het jaar vaak over de bonus tegen het toptarief ingehouden als voorzorgsmaatregel dat je in ieder geval geen extra belasting moet betalen aan het eind van het jaar. Geen wezenlijk verschil dus.
gettalo 8y ago
In Italy, as far as I know, there's only 1) and 3). Usually If we refer to a yearly salary, it's 3), if we refer to the monthly sum, it's the take home pay, so 1).
yitchelle 8y ago
I have worked in Australia, Singapore and Germany. When mentioning salary, we usually qualify it with either "Gross" or "Net", which corresponds to 1) and 2) respectively on your list.
- talaketu 8y ago
  though "what you actually get" in the long run includes superannuation in Australia, but people do not count it as a component of their gross income.
  - yitchelle 8y ago
    Not really, it is kinda "unseen" as its not part of the money that goes into you pocket after taxes. You only get into your pocket when retired.
    - sjwright 8y ago
      It's most definitely your money. You earned it. The money was transferred from your employer's bank account to an account in your name. The only difference is you can't spend it today. ( It was a clever mind hack by the Keating Labor government to have super not be a subset of your base salary, but rather as an on-top-of entitlement for employees—or from the employer's perspective, an additional wages cost just like payroll tax. Had it gone the other way, people would be more sensitive to their earned money being locked away. )
      - Schwolop 8y ago
        Re: the mind hack - yes, I agree. However, in light of recent discussions about raising the 9.5% SGL I went and looked at my latest contract which quite clearly says should that 9.5% go up, my total compensation will not change, so my base compensation will thus fall to ... compensate. Even though that doesn't financially penalise me, it still feels a bit mean. From the company's point of view though, I'm sure they'd view it as far more mean if the government suddenly told them they're obliged to pay everyone more.
golergka 8y ago
In Russia it's always #1 discussed and negotiated, because all the taxes and payments (like the retirement fund), including those that are supposedly paid by the employee, are handled by employer's accounting. Most people don't even know how much taxes and other payments they pay to the government each month, and most people don't even care that much whether the employer actually pays it all or doesn't. Just to clarify: not paying taxes and social payments on employee salary is, obviously, illegal, and employee is aware of that, but (1) in Russia, people generally don't care about breaking the law that much and (2) people don't believe in the pension system enough to care if they're paying anything into it or not. Most feel that by the time they get to retirement, government will find some way to steal their pension money, or it will be completely eaten away by hyperinflation or some other catastrophic economic event.
- davidrm 8y ago
  pretty much the same in Croatia and I dare to guess, Serbia and Bosnia (maybe even Slovenia).
dmarucco 8y ago
Here in Italy we discuss #2 - For example for an annual income of 30.000€ before taxes, it will be around 1.400 - 1.500€ month after taxes. And I had the same experience: it's almost impossible to have salaries jump without changing jobs (and from a business perspective the reasons for that are quite obvious)
- gettalo 8y ago
  In your example, €30000 would be your RAL so #3, not #2.
- dmarucco 8y ago
  I think actually it's #2 because companies in italy must pay additional taxes over the RAL (RAL - Reddito Annuale Lordo / Yearly Gross Income). Those taxes are for TFR and other welfare taxes.
gigatexal 8y ago
2018 - Salary for me an expat in Germany at a fintech startup: 53k Euros a year. No signing bonus. No options. Experience: 5 years as a DBA the rest a sad self taught programmer with 6 months of prior startup experience shipping microservices in C# and Python. Startup in logistics 2018 6 months: 48k euros. Previous: DBA in Portland Oregon in 2013 to 2017 - 60k to 70k then as an EDW dev 78k USD.
- qubax 8y ago
  Jesus that's horrible. I made much more than that straight out of college. But it was in NYC where cost of living is high and taxes destroy you. The saddest part is that your salary didn't increase much in 5 years? Going from $60k to $70k to 53k euros over 5 years is pretty much tracking inflation. Over 5 years, my salary increased by more than double your entire salary. You should ask for a raise from time to time or get a better paying job. Especially since DBA/data scientist along with computer security developer/engineer were some of the hottest fields in tech the past 10 years. Some people can spend a month reading "SQL in 21 days" and get a higher salary than you in many places.
  - chickenfries 8y ago
    This kind of tone is why people from lower cost of living areas don’t post in these threads. > Some people can spend a month reading "SQL in 21 days" and get a higher salary than you in many places. Can you show me a job listing you think one could apply for after reading a book on SQL?
  - lolsal 8y ago
    It's also possible that salary is not a main motivation for the parent comment author. Jobs come with non-monetary perks, and sometimes people just do a job to pay the bills. Not everyone is hustling for maximum salary.
  - gigatexal 8y ago
    Yeah it’s not great. But I don’t have a CS degree. I was brought in off the street with an Econ degree to be a super junior DBA and spent a lot of time warming a seat as a migration admin. Then moved on to EDW work but the chance to move wasn’t entirely motivated by money but by what else’s I could learn. Then I moved to Germany to try my hand at a startup to gain more experience. The pay could be better but that’s not my entire goal: loving what I do is important and having a good work life balance is too.
ponyous 8y ago
Seems like it's more important to change titles than company according to your history. To be honest I'm a bit offended you consider yourself senior with 2 years of experience.
- sleepychu 8y ago
  Why are you offended? The market considers them senior...
  - ponyous 8y ago
    I spent 5+ years in the industry and felt weird calling myself senior. Just because you are a friend with CEO and he can vouch for your title doesn't make you senior. In 2 years of experience how many serious products can you take from start to finish? In my opinion, a senior developer is a person who did this multiple times. It's almost like calling yourself lead developer of 1 man team...
    - azhenley 8y ago
      Being Lead Developer in a one person team definitely sounds reasonable. You are still the lead dev on the project and have to take on all the responsiblities (even more so than if the team was bigger?).
      - jobigoud 8y ago
        > You are still the lead dev on the project and have to take on all the responsiblities Except the responsibility of leading other people, on a resume this title would imply you gained that experience while in fact you didn't.
        azhenley 8y ago
        I've never interpreted it as meaning leading people but rather leading the development of a project (or some portion of it). In fact, at IBM, I saw teams have multiple lead devs.
pjc50 8y ago
Probably also needs some kind of purchasing power parity adjustment - divide by the cost of a specified size of house within a reasonable commuting distance, for example.
- varjag 8y ago
  That goes only so far. Macbooks cost the same, and you ain't getting your car cheaper than in the States.
  - fileeditview 8y ago
    Not everyone needs a Macbook (or a car) :)
    - varjag 8y ago
      Not everyone needs to pay for housing either, but most do. Point is, cost of living isn't just about groceries on the farmers' market.
      - fileeditview 8y ago
        It's pretty sensible to assume that housing is one of the most important aspects of cost of living contrary to a Macbook. Also the parent was stating "for example" which implies there are other factors.
        varjag 8y ago
        Housing is also a lot more variable than a Macbook. Even within the same country, it can easily differ 3-4x depending on the region. There's a reason it's not counted when calculating consumer price indexes or GDP PPP figures. For Estonia above, the cost of most everything else than local produce is comparable to the Western Europe or the States. Clothing, petrol, consumer electronics, foreign vacations are not any cheaper.
harperlee 8y ago
I think one way of having a productive comparison is to use percentage points on wage increases; that way it doesnt matter location or currency, cost of living etc. as these can be reflected in base salary as a proxy.

jjeaff 8y ago

Yes, almost always number 2. Number 1 only when they specify "take home pay" and almost never number 3. Because the total amount your employer pays is not readily available nor easy to calculate.

humanrebar 8y ago
Every employer I have worked for has given me number 3 in writing at least once a year. EDIT: Though, come to think of it, that number doesn't include some employer paid payroll taxes. But it's simple enough to multiply by 1.N

CalRobert 8y ago

People in the US almost always quote salary in terms of gross amounts - so if someone makes $200k, that's before tax. But it's not including the employer taxes. I.e. their paycheck will show $16,666 per month at the top line, a bunch of state, federal, maybe local taxes, disability and social security (also basically taxes), etc. and then roughly $10,500 at the bottom line depending on your situation.\ Edit: sometimes people include stock in their pay. This can be perfectly reasonable (guaranteed grants in a publicly traded company) or complete BS (pretending your startup will sell for 1B+ even though you might as well just buy lottery tickets)

hoaw 8y ago
I think most countries does this. Of course that doesn't make the amount comparable between countries. It is mainly for practical reasons since that is the salary you negotiate for i.e. the amount they pay you (though in many countries the employer would deduct income taxes). In general I think a decent starting point, for higher salaries, tends to be what one can save. Because then people will often instinctively start asking for the bigger picture.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

apexalpha 8y ago

My #2 = €45k or so, but in my country (Netherlands) this number, usually, doesn't include pension contributions which are 6k a year in my firm. I don't actually know how much #3 is. But my #1 = (2330 * 12) * 1,125% (end of year bonus).

tobyhinloopen 8y ago
Geen Vakantiegeld?
- apexalpha 8y ago
  Zit in die 12,5%!
  - tobyhinloopen 8y ago
    Ah, dus ~4% "jaarbonus" naast 8% vakantiegeld. Nog niet eerder gezien, is dat gebruikelijk? Je krijgt 56% belasting over bonussen toch? Kunnen ze het niet beter in je salaris stoppen, zodat je gewoon "normaal" (42%?) belastingtarief betaalt?
    - apexalpha 8y ago
      Het is salaris, je mag zelf kiezen of je het in één keer in december wil over verspreid elke maand. Daarnaast kun je van die 4% extra ook pensioen inleggen (bruto), vakantie kopen etc.. Naast dit alles nog winstdeling, die is indd 49% belast en erg veriabel.
    - IkmoIkmo 8y ago
      Salaris en bonussen worden exact hetzelfde belast bij de jaarlijkse afrekening, net als je vakantiegeld en je eindejaarsuitkering. Allemaal hetzelfde. Echter wordt er gedurende het jaar vaak over de bonus tegen het toptarief ingehouden als voorzorgsmaatregel dat je in ieder geval geen extra belasting moet betalen aan het eind van het jaar. Geen wezenlijk verschil dus.

gettalo 8y ago

In Italy, as far as I know, there's only 1) and 3). Usually If we refer to a yearly salary, it's 3), if we refer to the monthly sum, it's the take home pay, so 1).

yitchelle 8y ago

I have worked in Australia, Singapore and Germany. When mentioning salary, we usually qualify it with either "Gross" or "Net", which corresponds to 1) and 2) respectively on your list.

talaketu 8y ago
though "what you actually get" in the long run includes superannuation in Australia, but people do not count it as a component of their gross income.
- yitchelle 8y ago
  Not really, it is kinda "unseen" as its not part of the money that goes into you pocket after taxes. You only get into your pocket when retired.
  - sjwright 8y ago
    It's most definitely your money. You earned it. The money was transferred from your employer's bank account to an account in your name. The only difference is you can't spend it today. ( It was a clever mind hack by the Keating Labor government to have super not be a subset of your base salary, but rather as an on-top-of entitlement for employees—or from the employer's perspective, an additional wages cost just like payroll tax. Had it gone the other way, people would be more sensitive to their earned money being locked away. )
    - Schwolop 8y ago
      Re: the mind hack - yes, I agree. However, in light of recent discussions about raising the 9.5% SGL I went and looked at my latest contract which quite clearly says should that 9.5% go up, my total compensation will not change, so my base compensation will thus fall to ... compensate. Even though that doesn't financially penalise me, it still feels a bit mean. From the company's point of view though, I'm sure they'd view it as far more mean if the government suddenly told them they're obliged to pay everyone more.

golergka 8y ago

In Russia it's always #1 discussed and negotiated, because all the taxes and payments (like the retirement fund), including those that are supposedly paid by the employee, are handled by employer's accounting. Most people don't even know how much taxes and other payments they pay to the government each month, and most people don't even care that much whether the employer actually pays it all or doesn't. Just to clarify: not paying taxes and social payments on employee salary is, obviously, illegal, and employee is aware of that, but (1) in Russia, people generally don't care about breaking the law that much and (2) people don't believe in the pension system enough to care if they're paying anything into it or not. Most feel that by the time they get to retirement, government will find some way to steal their pension money, or it will be completely eaten away by hyperinflation or some other catastrophic economic event.

davidrm 8y ago
pretty much the same in Croatia and I dare to guess, Serbia and Bosnia (maybe even Slovenia).

dmarucco 8y ago

Here in Italy we discuss #2 - For example for an annual income of 30.000€ before taxes, it will be around 1.400 - 1.500€ month after taxes. And I had the same experience: it's almost impossible to have salaries jump without changing jobs (and from a business perspective the reasons for that are quite obvious)

gettalo 8y ago
In your example, €30000 would be your RAL so #3, not #2.
dmarucco 8y ago
I think actually it's #2 because companies in italy must pay additional taxes over the RAL (RAL - Reddito Annuale Lordo / Yearly Gross Income). Those taxes are for TFR and other welfare taxes.

gigatexal 8y ago

2018 - Salary for me an expat in Germany at a fintech startup: 53k Euros a year. No signing bonus. No options. Experience: 5 years as a DBA the rest a sad self taught programmer with 6 months of prior startup experience shipping microservices in C# and Python. Startup in logistics 2018 6 months: 48k euros. Previous: DBA in Portland Oregon in 2013 to 2017 - 60k to 70k then as an EDW dev 78k USD.

qubax 8y ago
Jesus that's horrible. I made much more than that straight out of college. But it was in NYC where cost of living is high and taxes destroy you. The saddest part is that your salary didn't increase much in 5 years? Going from $60k to $70k to 53k euros over 5 years is pretty much tracking inflation. Over 5 years, my salary increased by more than double your entire salary. You should ask for a raise from time to time or get a better paying job. Especially since DBA/data scientist along with computer security developer/engineer were some of the hottest fields in tech the past 10 years. Some people can spend a month reading "SQL in 21 days" and get a higher salary than you in many places.
- chickenfries 8y ago
  This kind of tone is why people from lower cost of living areas don’t post in these threads. > Some people can spend a month reading "SQL in 21 days" and get a higher salary than you in many places. Can you show me a job listing you think one could apply for after reading a book on SQL?
- lolsal 8y ago
  It's also possible that salary is not a main motivation for the parent comment author. Jobs come with non-monetary perks, and sometimes people just do a job to pay the bills. Not everyone is hustling for maximum salary.
- gigatexal 8y ago
  Yeah it’s not great. But I don’t have a CS degree. I was brought in off the street with an Econ degree to be a super junior DBA and spent a lot of time warming a seat as a migration admin. Then moved on to EDW work but the chance to move wasn’t entirely motivated by money but by what else’s I could learn. Then I moved to Germany to try my hand at a startup to gain more experience. The pay could be better but that’s not my entire goal: loving what I do is important and having a good work life balance is too.

ponyous 8y ago

Seems like it's more important to change titles than company according to your history. To be honest I'm a bit offended you consider yourself senior with 2 years of experience.

sleepychu 8y ago
Why are you offended? The market considers them senior...
- ponyous 8y ago
  I spent 5+ years in the industry and felt weird calling myself senior. Just because you are a friend with CEO and he can vouch for your title doesn't make you senior. In 2 years of experience how many serious products can you take from start to finish? In my opinion, a senior developer is a person who did this multiple times. It's almost like calling yourself lead developer of 1 man team...
  - azhenley 8y ago
    Being Lead Developer in a one person team definitely sounds reasonable. You are still the lead dev on the project and have to take on all the responsiblities (even more so than if the team was bigger?).
    - jobigoud 8y ago
      > You are still the lead dev on the project and have to take on all the responsiblities Except the responsibility of leading other people, on a resume this title would imply you gained that experience while in fact you didn't.
      - azhenley 8y ago
        I've never interpreted it as meaning leading people but rather leading the development of a project (or some portion of it). In fact, at IBM, I saw teams have multiple lead devs.

pjc50 8y ago

Probably also needs some kind of purchasing power parity adjustment - divide by the cost of a specified size of house within a reasonable commuting distance, for example.

varjag 8y ago
That goes only so far. Macbooks cost the same, and you ain't getting your car cheaper than in the States.
- fileeditview 8y ago
  Not everyone needs a Macbook (or a car) :)
  - varjag 8y ago
    Not everyone needs to pay for housing either, but most do. Point is, cost of living isn't just about groceries on the farmers' market.
    - fileeditview 8y ago
      It's pretty sensible to assume that housing is one of the most important aspects of cost of living contrary to a Macbook. Also the parent was stating "for example" which implies there are other factors.
      - varjag 8y ago
        Housing is also a lot more variable than a Macbook. Even within the same country, it can easily differ 3-4x depending on the region. There's a reason it's not counted when calculating consumer price indexes or GDP PPP figures. For Estonia above, the cost of most everything else than local produce is comparable to the Western Europe or the States. Clothing, petrol, consumer electronics, foreign vacations are not any cheaper.

harperlee 8y ago

I think one way of having a productive comparison is to use percentage points on wage increases; that way it doesnt matter location or currency, cost of living etc. as these can be reflected in base salary as a proxy.