10 ms·

The SOS in my Halloween decorations

394 points by tlrobinson 8y ago

ezoe 8y ago
An American found a SOS message inside the Halloween decoration package, saying the SOS writer is held at concentration camp, tortured and forced to overwork. She published the message and it was fact. The writer fled to Jakarta. They've met. Then, the writer was suspected to be killed by Chinese agent. > was contacted by a suspected Chinese agent - and two months later he died of acute kidney failure. Despite a request from his ex-wife and sisters, there was no investigation into the cause of death. Leon is suspicious: "He had no kidney problems before and when I was there in Indonesia he seemed perfectly healthy." A very good non-fiction dystopian novel.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  Yes, and three more points a.) his wife divorced him to have plausible deniability and they were going to remarry and almost got there b.) one of his coworkers helped him and was tortured and did not give him up which is unlike anything popular media/the United States government tells us about torture c.) 160,000 Falun Gong survived the re education/organ extraction out of how many knows whom entered, now we know roughly 1,000,000 Chinese Muslims Uyghurs have been forced into re education camps.
  - randallsquared 8y ago
    one of his coworkers helped him and was tortured and did not give him up which is unlike anything popular media/the United States government tells us about torture I don’t think even the most enthusiastic proponents would argue that it always works, and surely popular media is full of protagonists on whom it was ineffective.
- fouc 8y ago
  Unfortunately, the novel doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon, given the latest re-education camps of the Uighurs.
  - SZJX 8y ago
    I don't think those Uighur camps are exactly comparable to force labor camps on prisoners. If one portrays them as such they are greatly twisting the facts.
- SZJX 8y ago
  Feels like this could well be Falun Gong propaganda. They are known for fabricating stories to discredit the Chinese gov. There are multiple such "notes from prison factory" stories floating around in the media already. It's hard to ascertain the veracity of them, especially as they appear all around the place and seem to suspiciously follow a similar pattern. There are so many coincidences in this story. For example, how would a normal middle-aged Chinese be able to write coherent English after all; how was he able to get pen and paper in the prison, if the conditions were that bad; how, if the prison guard actually found the letter, they didn't know it was penned by him: They might well be unable to read English, but they can definitely read the Pinyin which is used to spell out his name. I'm not saying that the Chinese government are not capable of streneous labor camps on their prisoners, but Falun Gong is not anything good either. This report made it out as if they were "prosecuted" just because they were growing too large, while the simple fact is that they are essentially a cult organization that swindled millions out of retirees, and organized attacks which destroyed public TV stations and local government institutions which dared to call their bluffs (yeah, sitting in front of Tian'anmen is one thing, but locally they have been much more violent), and therefore was eventually clamped down out of existence in the mainland by the authorities. Ever since then they have been (deliberately) supported by western money to perform anti-China propaganda. Most of what they write on their pamphlets/publications are pure fabrication or at least gross mischaracterizations. Ask 10 Chinese around you and 9 out of them will tell you how laughable and unreliable Falun Gong is. They're definitely not beyond fabricating stories and creating characters just to feed the anti-China rhetoric. The fact that the Chinese government is authoritarian doesn't automatically mean that every enemy of it is automatically "good", or that every vivid accusation against it is factual. Anti-China propaganda does exist, and unfortunately it more usual than not doesn't get distinguished in the western media. Also the end of the article which links this incident with the internment camps in Xinjiang is unreasonable. Prison labor camps are one thing, while the main purpose of the re-education camps in Xinjiang is not to hold those youths forever and use them as cheap labor, but rather try to ensure that they don't get easily swayed by extremism. Whether the program can achieve its end and whether the format in which it's carried out is suitable, is debatable, but to equate it with brutal prison labor camps is just deliberately misleading and dishonest. Also the Chinese government doesn't deny their existence at all so to call them "secret detention camps" is just simply false.
mml 8y ago
Wow, they kinda buried the lede at the end there. He was apparently assassinated after the publicity, from the sound of it.
- dzdt 8y ago
  The lack of evidence that his death was an assassination is why this isn't the lead. The other parts of the story are factual and supported by evidence. Suspicions about the cause of his death are just that: suspicions.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    Fairly strong suspicions, but the fact that they didn’t use that makes it real reporting. Also makes the impact of the story stronger as far as I’m concerned.
MrBingley 8y ago
I am deeply disturbed by what we are seeing in China. The Great Firewall, massive concentration camps in Xinjiang, a new "social credit" system - I think the dystopia of 1984 is becoming a reality. I am afraid that as a society we have the complacency that the "good guys" - democracy, human rights, freedom - will always win. Stalinism and facism eventually fell, but the Communist Party of China is still going strong, and seems to be more than able to extend its grip to the 21st century.
- legionof7 8y ago
  And no one will stand up to them because they are too economically and culturally powerful.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
    Western leaders meet Chinese ones and make a mention of human rights… then sign trade deals anyway.
    - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
      Like how western CEOs pulled out of the Saudi conference... but sent other employees as representatives. They want to look like they are opting out, but they still have every intention of being “in”.
      - C1sc0cat 8y ago
        Or maybe taking to their "friends" in the royal family about how MBS is a liability and you know ought to go. I used to work for a big Consulting engineer who did a lot of work in the middle east and we had our friends in high places (you can probably guess who I worked for)
        biglenny 8y ago
        I am low IQ. Please give me a hint
Erwin 8y ago
Wikipedia's summary shows long-running awareness and criticism of the practice which had gone on since 1957. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor So that story and another article about womens' conditions in the camps was the catalyst for change. Now imagine if the Portland newspaper was owned by a larger company, who determined it was not in their interest to publish a story whose veracity could not be fully determined and that could worse the relations with their Chinese investors. On the other hand it's sad that Humans Right Watch could go on for years about this, and this personal story was enough to get people talking. Similar to KSA's destruction of Yemen being hardly visible until the recent murder.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  Yet another reason to not buy cheap made in China products. Don't buy those "halloween in a box" things, or similar junk. Prison labor+questionable environmental record+environmental cost of shipping adds up to a really bad idea. Just put together some stuff yourself, from scrap wood and stuff most people have lying around anyway, instead of horrible styrofoam junk.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >Just put together some stuff yourself, from scrap wood and stuff most people have lying around anyway The intersection of HNers and DIYers is much smaller than you think. Also when you're paying $2500 for a 500ft^2 apartment in SF you don't tend to hang on to things like scrap wood.
    - KozmoNau7 8y ago
      In my experience, the hacker/DIYer/tinkerer crossover is pretty big. Certainly in my circle of acquaintances.
JazzXP 8y ago
This was a tough read emotionally, especially the ending. Seems crazy to go out of their way for that (if true) once the damage has been done. Are the Chinese government that vindictive?
- djaychela 8y ago
  If they did do it, I would imagine it's to send out a message to others - you may leave China, but that may not be enough to keep you alive. That's a strong message to send to dissenters.
  - JazzXP 8y ago
    Oh I didn't think of that aspect. Yeah, that's very true.
yardie 8y ago
The CCP considers Falun Gong/Dafa to be a cult. And in some instances they can certainly appear that way. A long time ago I had a chinese-american girlfriend. And as we were walking past a Falun Gong demonstration in NYC she remarked they were a dangerous cult. I asked why she would think that and her response was that their practitioners self-immolate and only a lunatic would do that. I've carried that thought with me ever since. Only recently have I discovered the immolation demonstrations were, yet again, CCP propaganda.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  The "dangerous cult" thing would have been bullshit even if the immolation stories were true, though. Self-immolation and other suicide protests are a well-known way to bring attention to an overlooked cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation
  - yardie 8y ago
    I think there are far better ways to bring attention to a cause and stay alive. Immolation is a one and done thing and it may not leave the intended result. Jim Jones[0] was an activist but do you think any remembers him for that? No, he's remembered as a mass murdering cult leader. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Mass_murder_in_Jonestown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Mass_murder_in_Jones...
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      I don't know if it's an effective tactic, but when a desperate, oppressed person chooses to peacefully martyr themself as an act of protest, dismissing them as a "dangerous lunatic" seems deeply short-sighted. And it has so little to do with Jim Jones brainwashing and murdering 900-odd people that I'm really not sure why you brought that up.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Simplistic view unfortunately. In most cases, self-immolation is the expression of utter hopelessness, desperation when basic, core values central to your life are taken away and the person doesn't see how to continue. The people doing it are not brainwashed. And apart from few isolated cases, they are not crazy either. I would never ever do anything like that (or suicide for that matter), but as in most matters, things are more complex than first glance might tell.
lifeformed 8y ago
Geeze, I didn't realize the faded paint look on cheap styrofoam decorations were hand-scrubbed by slaves. Something about that hits me harder than other stories of cheap labor. It's just such a frivolous forgettable item.
ajnin 8y ago
I keep wondering how some Chinese businesses can be profitable selling stuff at what seems to be impossibly low prices (example : https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00YMIKRTA/ https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00YMIKRTA/ 0.97EUR, postage included). If cost of labour is removed from the equation (slave labour), that can explain a lot.
- setquk 8y ago
  Indeed. I just bought a £1.50 including delivery embedded switch mode power supply yesterday.
  - gringoDan 8y ago
    This doesn't account for the labor costs, but Planet Money had a great explanation of how shipping rates across borders work (and don't reflect true costs): https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/episode-857-the-postal-illuminati https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/epis...
    - setquk 8y ago
      I know the shipping rates system. It’s the entire supply chain that gets me. How do they do that for £1.50 when I can’t get the parts for less than £15 here in huge volumes.
asnyder 8y ago
This is the crazy part for me: They suggested that she contact human rights organisations, so Julie rang up and left messages with several - but she never received a reply. What is up with non-replies from organizations? She reaches out and nothing. It's not a Facebook Ad Request appeal (an aside, is crazy how non-responsive they can be and get away with it) it's human rights!
patorjk 8y ago
The articles says that Sun Yi wrote around 20 letters, does this mean there are ~19 other people who got a letter but said nothing? It makes me wonder who often this kind of thing is tried but gets no response from the recipient of the letter.
- eiaoa 8y ago
  > The articles says that Sun Yi wrote around 20 letters, does this mean there are ~19 other people who got a letter but said nothing? It makes me wonder who often this kind of thing is tried but gets no response from the recipient of the letter. Not necessarily: Some of the letters could have been intercepted in China. Others could have made it to people who cared but were less successful in getting media attention. Still more could have been destroyed, unread, with unsold inventory.

394 points by tlrobinson 8y ago

ezoe 8y ago

An American found a SOS message inside the Halloween decoration package, saying the SOS writer is held at concentration camp, tortured and forced to overwork. She published the message and it was fact. The writer fled to Jakarta. They've met. Then, the writer was suspected to be killed by Chinese agent. > was contacted by a suspected Chinese agent - and two months later he died of acute kidney failure. Despite a request from his ex-wife and sisters, there was no investigation into the cause of death. Leon is suspicious: "He had no kidney problems before and when I was there in Indonesia he seemed perfectly healthy." A very good non-fiction dystopian novel.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
stevenwoo 8y ago
Yes, and three more points a.) his wife divorced him to have plausible deniability and they were going to remarry and almost got there b.) one of his coworkers helped him and was tortured and did not give him up which is unlike anything popular media/the United States government tells us about torture c.) 160,000 Falun Gong survived the re education/organ extraction out of how many knows whom entered, now we know roughly 1,000,000 Chinese Muslims Uyghurs have been forced into re education camps.
- randallsquared 8y ago
  one of his coworkers helped him and was tortured and did not give him up which is unlike anything popular media/the United States government tells us about torture I don’t think even the most enthusiastic proponents would argue that it always works, and surely popular media is full of protagonists on whom it was ineffective.
fouc 8y ago
Unfortunately, the novel doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon, given the latest re-education camps of the Uighurs.
- SZJX 8y ago
  I don't think those Uighur camps are exactly comparable to force labor camps on prisoners. If one portrays them as such they are greatly twisting the facts.
SZJX 8y ago
Feels like this could well be Falun Gong propaganda. They are known for fabricating stories to discredit the Chinese gov. There are multiple such "notes from prison factory" stories floating around in the media already. It's hard to ascertain the veracity of them, especially as they appear all around the place and seem to suspiciously follow a similar pattern. There are so many coincidences in this story. For example, how would a normal middle-aged Chinese be able to write coherent English after all; how was he able to get pen and paper in the prison, if the conditions were that bad; how, if the prison guard actually found the letter, they didn't know it was penned by him: They might well be unable to read English, but they can definitely read the Pinyin which is used to spell out his name. I'm not saying that the Chinese government are not capable of streneous labor camps on their prisoners, but Falun Gong is not anything good either. This report made it out as if they were "prosecuted" just because they were growing too large, while the simple fact is that they are essentially a cult organization that swindled millions out of retirees, and organized attacks which destroyed public TV stations and local government institutions which dared to call their bluffs (yeah, sitting in front of Tian'anmen is one thing, but locally they have been much more violent), and therefore was eventually clamped down out of existence in the mainland by the authorities. Ever since then they have been (deliberately) supported by western money to perform anti-China propaganda. Most of what they write on their pamphlets/publications are pure fabrication or at least gross mischaracterizations. Ask 10 Chinese around you and 9 out of them will tell you how laughable and unreliable Falun Gong is. They're definitely not beyond fabricating stories and creating characters just to feed the anti-China rhetoric. The fact that the Chinese government is authoritarian doesn't automatically mean that every enemy of it is automatically "good", or that every vivid accusation against it is factual. Anti-China propaganda does exist, and unfortunately it more usual than not doesn't get distinguished in the western media. Also the end of the article which links this incident with the internment camps in Xinjiang is unreasonable. Prison labor camps are one thing, while the main purpose of the re-education camps in Xinjiang is not to hold those youths forever and use them as cheap labor, but rather try to ensure that they don't get easily swayed by extremism. Whether the program can achieve its end and whether the format in which it's carried out is suitable, is debatable, but to equate it with brutal prison labor camps is just deliberately misleading and dishonest. Also the Chinese government doesn't deny their existence at all so to call them "secret detention camps" is just simply false.

mml 8y ago

Wow, they kinda buried the lede at the end there. He was apparently assassinated after the publicity, from the sound of it.

dzdt 8y ago
The lack of evidence that his death was an assassination is why this isn't the lead. The other parts of the story are factual and supported by evidence. Suspicions about the cause of his death are just that: suspicions.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  Fairly strong suspicions, but the fact that they didn’t use that makes it real reporting. Also makes the impact of the story stronger as far as I’m concerned.

MrBingley 8y ago

I am deeply disturbed by what we are seeing in China. The Great Firewall, massive concentration camps in Xinjiang, a new "social credit" system - I think the dystopia of 1984 is becoming a reality. I am afraid that as a society we have the complacency that the "good guys" - democracy, human rights, freedom - will always win. Stalinism and facism eventually fell, but the Communist Party of China is still going strong, and seems to be more than able to extend its grip to the 21st century.

legionof7 8y ago
And no one will stand up to them because they are too economically and culturally powerful.
- TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
  Western leaders meet Chinese ones and make a mention of human rights… then sign trade deals anyway.
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    Like how western CEOs pulled out of the Saudi conference... but sent other employees as representatives. They want to look like they are opting out, but they still have every intention of being “in”.
    - C1sc0cat 8y ago
      Or maybe taking to their "friends" in the royal family about how MBS is a liability and you know ought to go. I used to work for a big Consulting engineer who did a lot of work in the middle east and we had our friends in high places (you can probably guess who I worked for)
      - biglenny 8y ago
        I am low IQ. Please give me a hint

Erwin 8y ago

Wikipedia's summary shows long-running awareness and criticism of the practice which had gone on since 1957. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor So that story and another article about womens' conditions in the camps was the catalyst for change. Now imagine if the Portland newspaper was owned by a larger company, who determined it was not in their interest to publish a story whose veracity could not be fully determined and that could worse the relations with their Chinese investors. On the other hand it's sad that Humans Right Watch could go on for years about this, and this personal story was enough to get people talking. Similar to KSA's destruction of Yemen being hardly visible until the recent murder.

beaconstudios 8y ago
"one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"
KozmoNau7 8y ago
Yet another reason to not buy cheap made in China products. Don't buy those "halloween in a box" things, or similar junk. Prison labor+questionable environmental record+environmental cost of shipping adds up to a really bad idea. Just put together some stuff yourself, from scrap wood and stuff most people have lying around anyway, instead of horrible styrofoam junk.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >Just put together some stuff yourself, from scrap wood and stuff most people have lying around anyway The intersection of HNers and DIYers is much smaller than you think. Also when you're paying $2500 for a 500ft^2 apartment in SF you don't tend to hang on to things like scrap wood.
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    In my experience, the hacker/DIYer/tinkerer crossover is pretty big. Certainly in my circle of acquaintances.

JazzXP 8y ago

This was a tough read emotionally, especially the ending. Seems crazy to go out of their way for that (if true) once the damage has been done. Are the Chinese government that vindictive?

djaychela 8y ago
If they did do it, I would imagine it's to send out a message to others - you may leave China, but that may not be enough to keep you alive. That's a strong message to send to dissenters.
- JazzXP 8y ago
  Oh I didn't think of that aspect. Yeah, that's very true.

yardie 8y ago

The CCP considers Falun Gong/Dafa to be a cult. And in some instances they can certainly appear that way. A long time ago I had a chinese-american girlfriend. And as we were walking past a Falun Gong demonstration in NYC she remarked they were a dangerous cult. I asked why she would think that and her response was that their practitioners self-immolate and only a lunatic would do that. I've carried that thought with me ever since. Only recently have I discovered the immolation demonstrations were, yet again, CCP propaganda.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
The "dangerous cult" thing would have been bullshit even if the immolation stories were true, though. Self-immolation and other suicide protests are a well-known way to bring attention to an overlooked cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation
- yardie 8y ago
  I think there are far better ways to bring attention to a cause and stay alive. Immolation is a one and done thing and it may not leave the intended result. Jim Jones[0] was an activist but do you think any remembers him for that? No, he's remembered as a mass murdering cult leader. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Mass_murder_in_Jonestown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Mass_murder_in_Jones...
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    I don't know if it's an effective tactic, but when a desperate, oppressed person chooses to peacefully martyr themself as an act of protest, dismissing them as a "dangerous lunatic" seems deeply short-sighted. And it has so little to do with Jim Jones brainwashing and murdering 900-odd people that I'm really not sure why you brought that up.
saiya-jin 8y ago
Simplistic view unfortunately. In most cases, self-immolation is the expression of utter hopelessness, desperation when basic, core values central to your life are taken away and the person doesn't see how to continue. The people doing it are not brainwashed. And apart from few isolated cases, they are not crazy either. I would never ever do anything like that (or suicide for that matter), but as in most matters, things are more complex than first glance might tell.

lifeformed 8y ago

Geeze, I didn't realize the faded paint look on cheap styrofoam decorations were hand-scrubbed by slaves. Something about that hits me harder than other stories of cheap labor. It's just such a frivolous forgettable item.

ajnin 8y ago

I keep wondering how some Chinese businesses can be profitable selling stuff at what seems to be impossibly low prices (example : https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00YMIKRTA/ https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00YMIKRTA/ 0.97EUR, postage included). If cost of labour is removed from the equation (slave labour), that can explain a lot.

setquk 8y ago
Indeed. I just bought a £1.50 including delivery embedded switch mode power supply yesterday.
- gringoDan 8y ago
  This doesn't account for the labor costs, but Planet Money had a great explanation of how shipping rates across borders work (and don't reflect true costs): https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/episode-857-the-postal-illuminati https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/epis...
  - setquk 8y ago
    I know the shipping rates system. It’s the entire supply chain that gets me. How do they do that for £1.50 when I can’t get the parts for less than £15 here in huge volumes.

asnyder 8y ago

This is the crazy part for me: They suggested that she contact human rights organisations, so Julie rang up and left messages with several - but she never received a reply. What is up with non-replies from organizations? She reaches out and nothing. It's not a Facebook Ad Request appeal (an aside, is crazy how non-responsive they can be and get away with it) it's human rights!

patorjk 8y ago

The articles says that Sun Yi wrote around 20 letters, does this mean there are ~19 other people who got a letter but said nothing? It makes me wonder who often this kind of thing is tried but gets no response from the recipient of the letter.

eiaoa 8y ago
> The articles says that Sun Yi wrote around 20 letters, does this mean there are ~19 other people who got a letter but said nothing? It makes me wonder who often this kind of thing is tried but gets no response from the recipient of the letter. Not necessarily: Some of the letters could have been intercepted in China. Others could have made it to people who cared but were less successful in getting media attention. Still more could have been destroyed, unread, with unsold inventory.