8 ms·

There's a point in the press conference where the presenter went "And you can scroll the UI as fast as you want, and it doesn't lag! We have 8 cores in our CPU!

by OskarS 8y ago

There's a point in the press conference where the presenter went "And you can scroll the UI as fast as you want, and it doesn't lag! We have 8 cores in our CPU!" (or something: not literal transcription) and the entire audience clapped. That's about as serious an indictment of the competence of the software development industry as I can imagine. Edit: to clarify: the line is "It's a real PSD... it's over 3 gigs, it's a 157 layers, 12000x12000 pixels, and I'm zooming through it at lightning speed, with no lag". While she's doing this she's scrolling the layer list, which is why I was confused in my earlier statement. Note, btw: when she's zooming, it's not loading the higher resolution in "real time". It takes a second or so for the higher resolution to pop in. So when she's saying "zooming through it at lightning speed", what she's saying is "the UI doesn't hang when I zoom, and the higher resolution pops in quick enough". This should not be an applause line for a device of this power in 2018.

saagarjha 8y ago
I think the app was applying filters to a large image on the fly as she was doing that, so it’s not unimpressive.
throwaway427 8y ago
Was this during the presentation where they were dealing with a huge photoshop file?
- jaegerpicker 8y ago
  Yes, I'm critical of the presenters that Apple chooses often but I thought that comment made sense in the context, especially coming from someone that was likely more an Artist than a technologist.
  - OskarS 8y ago
    Maybe I'm being harsh, but I really don't think that it should be impressive that, on a device of this power, you can zoom in and out of a photoshop file without the UI lagging. Note, btw, that the pixels aren't updating in real time, it takes a little bit for the higher resolution to pop in when she zooms in (unless they're recently in cache). She's literally talking about not having the UI lag. This shouldn't be an applause line, this should be basic functionality in 2018.
    - jaegerpicker 8y ago
      It's a 12GB file with literally thousands of image filters being applied in realtime on a tablet. It's not about the UI it's about the image selection and realtime filters on a GIANT composite image. That's one hell of a lot of processing happening.
    - brenschluss 8y ago
      Yeah, if you’ve never pushed Photoshop and think it’s just a photo editing software then it’s understandable that you’d feel this way.
      - p4rsec 8y ago
        This exactly. People don't seem to grasp just how powerful Photoshop is, and just what kind of power you need to utilize it.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  I’d assume so. I don’t recall any other mention of scrolling performance.
geodel 8y ago
I feel you are not wrong. But I have no hope that quality and performance will be demanded any time soon, considering how vehemently Javascript desktop software is defended here with terms like 'time to market', 'users have spoken' etc
r0fl 8y ago
It was a 3gig PSD file. That is pretty impressive.
- OskarS 8y ago
  No! It's not! Not in 2018! You only think it's impressive because you're used to UI's being total fucking shit! That's why it's an indictment of the software industry! I'm not saying it's not hard: it is hard. Programming is hard. Making sure you're not occupying the UI thread for more than 16 milliseconds per frame is sometimes a challenge. You have to use all sorts of scary stuff like "concurrency" and "threads" and "GPUs". But it's 2018: non-laggy UI's should be the baseline everywhere, for everything.
  - amiga-workbench 8y ago
    I'm glad somebody else feels this way, when my Amiga 1200 runs smoother than most modern computers you know something has gone horribly wrong.
    - theshrike79 8y ago
      Yes, my washing machine also runs completely smoothly. One turn of the dial and it has selected the correct program without any lag! Apples and Oranges.
      - amiga-workbench 8y ago
        I just had my whole Mac lock up after beginning the extraction of a xip archive. It is absolutely unacceptable for the UI to stop responding no matter how much load my computer is under. My Amiga never did this because the whole user interface was interrupt driven, it wasn't possible for any of the bloated trash running to deem itself more important.
    - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
      Yes, I edit 12000x12000 Photoshop images in real-time on my TRS-80 Model 4 every day. Kids these days.
stupidbird 8y ago
Scrolling through layers in photoshop doesn't necessarily just scroll a list though, it's also actively selecting the content of those layers... which can be very complex (I didn't watch the demo so I'm not entirely sure of the specific scrolling context). You're dealing with filters, transparencies, hand-drawn paths, masking, linked files, embedded files — there's a wide realm of potential data and complexity. If you want to test the mettle of a computer, try opening a large Photoshop file and doing anything in it. People who use Photoshop regularly totally understand the validity of that quick demo.
- OskarS 8y ago
  If you want to test the mettle of a computer, try opening a large Photoshop file and doing anything in it. This, right here, is why it's an indictment of the software industry. It SHOULDN'T be impressive that Photoshop doesn't lag. When she said that line, the entire audience should have shrugged and said to themselves "Of course you can zoom into an image in Photoshop. It's 2018. What's the big deal?"
  - stupidbird 8y ago
    I don't know enough about software to contest that statement, but I suspect you could be underestimating the the complexity of what Photoshop does. We're also talking about multi-gig files. Outside of media the occurrence of an individual application file this large is pretty small. It's not like you can reliably play a 4K video file on many entry-level machines either. In a similar vein, I would argue that it's a better indictment of the industry that I sometimes have to close Chrome because it's hogging more resources than Photoshop.
    - slivym 8y ago
      I think the obvious point is that whilst what photoshop does is very complex and computationally intensive, it's not new. The vast majority of the functionality in an average photoshop file is the same as was in the product 15 years ago. We really have reached the point of diminishing returns. And doing those tasks 15 years ago wasn't slow, so it's questionable why photoshop hasn't scaled in speed with the hardware.
kirykl 8y ago
UI speed has always been a feature. At one point in Mac OS X, finder window resizing was very laggy. I think Steve even did a keynote demo of fluid finder window resizing during 10.2 release. reference: https://macosx.com/threads/why-is-window-resizing-so-slow-still-in-macos-x-and-so-fast-in-windows-2000.9986/ https://macosx.com/threads/why-is-window-resizing-so-slow-st...
marricks 8y ago
Shouldn’t you be more specific and say an indictment of Photoshop or Adobe? Perhaps they have a lot they can optimize but the levels of layers, masking, opacity, blending or whatever is complex. There’s a lot to be said about reduced efficiencies with the layers of languages and abstractions we use today but I’m not sure photoshop is the best example to try and torch the whole industry.
ummonk 8y ago
There are plenty of times when I say "this software is bloated, inefficient, and should be snappy". Scrolling through a 3 GB 157-layer 12000x12000 image is not one of those times.

by OskarS 8y ago

saagarjha 8y ago

I think the app was applying filters to a large image on the fly as she was doing that, so it’s not unimpressive.

throwaway427 8y ago

Was this during the presentation where they were dealing with a huge photoshop file?

jaegerpicker 8y ago
Yes, I'm critical of the presenters that Apple chooses often but I thought that comment made sense in the context, especially coming from someone that was likely more an Artist than a technologist.
- OskarS 8y ago
  Maybe I'm being harsh, but I really don't think that it should be impressive that, on a device of this power, you can zoom in and out of a photoshop file without the UI lagging. Note, btw, that the pixels aren't updating in real time, it takes a little bit for the higher resolution to pop in when she zooms in (unless they're recently in cache). She's literally talking about not having the UI lag. This shouldn't be an applause line, this should be basic functionality in 2018.
  - jaegerpicker 8y ago
    It's a 12GB file with literally thousands of image filters being applied in realtime on a tablet. It's not about the UI it's about the image selection and realtime filters on a GIANT composite image. That's one hell of a lot of processing happening.
  - brenschluss 8y ago
    Yeah, if you’ve never pushed Photoshop and think it’s just a photo editing software then it’s understandable that you’d feel this way.
    - p4rsec 8y ago
      This exactly. People don't seem to grasp just how powerful Photoshop is, and just what kind of power you need to utilize it.
saagarjha 8y ago
I’d assume so. I don’t recall any other mention of scrolling performance.

geodel 8y ago

I feel you are not wrong. But I have no hope that quality and performance will be demanded any time soon, considering how vehemently Javascript desktop software is defended here with terms like 'time to market', 'users have spoken' etc

r0fl 8y ago

It was a 3gig PSD file. That is pretty impressive.

OskarS 8y ago
No! It's not! Not in 2018! You only think it's impressive because you're used to UI's being total fucking shit! That's why it's an indictment of the software industry! I'm not saying it's not hard: it is hard. Programming is hard. Making sure you're not occupying the UI thread for more than 16 milliseconds per frame is sometimes a challenge. You have to use all sorts of scary stuff like "concurrency" and "threads" and "GPUs". But it's 2018: non-laggy UI's should be the baseline everywhere, for everything.
- amiga-workbench 8y ago
  I'm glad somebody else feels this way, when my Amiga 1200 runs smoother than most modern computers you know something has gone horribly wrong.
  - theshrike79 8y ago
    Yes, my washing machine also runs completely smoothly. One turn of the dial and it has selected the correct program without any lag! Apples and Oranges.
    - amiga-workbench 8y ago
      I just had my whole Mac lock up after beginning the extraction of a xip archive. It is absolutely unacceptable for the UI to stop responding no matter how much load my computer is under. My Amiga never did this because the whole user interface was interrupt driven, it wasn't possible for any of the bloated trash running to deem itself more important.
  - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
    Yes, I edit 12000x12000 Photoshop images in real-time on my TRS-80 Model 4 every day. Kids these days.

stupidbird 8y ago

Scrolling through layers in photoshop doesn't necessarily just scroll a list though, it's also actively selecting the content of those layers... which can be very complex (I didn't watch the demo so I'm not entirely sure of the specific scrolling context). You're dealing with filters, transparencies, hand-drawn paths, masking, linked files, embedded files — there's a wide realm of potential data and complexity. If you want to test the mettle of a computer, try opening a large Photoshop file and doing anything in it. People who use Photoshop regularly totally understand the validity of that quick demo.

OskarS 8y ago
If you want to test the mettle of a computer, try opening a large Photoshop file and doing anything in it. This, right here, is why it's an indictment of the software industry. It SHOULDN'T be impressive that Photoshop doesn't lag. When she said that line, the entire audience should have shrugged and said to themselves "Of course you can zoom into an image in Photoshop. It's 2018. What's the big deal?"
- stupidbird 8y ago
  I don't know enough about software to contest that statement, but I suspect you could be underestimating the the complexity of what Photoshop does. We're also talking about multi-gig files. Outside of media the occurrence of an individual application file this large is pretty small. It's not like you can reliably play a 4K video file on many entry-level machines either. In a similar vein, I would argue that it's a better indictment of the industry that I sometimes have to close Chrome because it's hogging more resources than Photoshop.
  - slivym 8y ago
    I think the obvious point is that whilst what photoshop does is very complex and computationally intensive, it's not new. The vast majority of the functionality in an average photoshop file is the same as was in the product 15 years ago. We really have reached the point of diminishing returns. And doing those tasks 15 years ago wasn't slow, so it's questionable why photoshop hasn't scaled in speed with the hardware.

kirykl 8y ago

UI speed has always been a feature. At one point in Mac OS X, finder window resizing was very laggy. I think Steve even did a keynote demo of fluid finder window resizing during 10.2 release. reference: https://macosx.com/threads/why-is-window-resizing-so-slow-still-in-macos-x-and-so-fast-in-windows-2000.9986/ https://macosx.com/threads/why-is-window-resizing-so-slow-st...

marricks 8y ago

Shouldn’t you be more specific and say an indictment of Photoshop or Adobe? Perhaps they have a lot they can optimize but the levels of layers, masking, opacity, blending or whatever is complex. There’s a lot to be said about reduced efficiencies with the layers of languages and abstractions we use today but I’m not sure photoshop is the best example to try and torch the whole industry.

ummonk 8y ago

There are plenty of times when I say "this software is bloated, inefficient, and should be snappy". Scrolling through a 3 GB 157-layer 12000x12000 image is not one of those times.