20 ms·

Father of two little guys of 7 & 5 here. Personal story below. There's no tablets at home, no games on parent's smartphones. They have access to technology tho

by bpizzi 8y ago

Father of two little guys of 7 & 5 here. Personal story below. There's no tablets at home, no games on parent's smartphones. They have access to technology thought. But we are a "NO ADS ALLOWED HERE" kind of home :) Netflix is freely accessible on the only TV we have, during "opening hours", so that they can choose actively their program and not be exposed to TV ads (the TV has only access to Netflix). They can switch on a Raspberry with an emulator where they can play some games from the 80/90'. But they have to enter one command on the little Bluetooth keyboard (and they do!). And finally they can sit at the home's PC, start windows, ask parents to open their session and launch complex games such as Age Of Empire. No internet access, only books for now. When they happen to be exposed to TV ads at grand-parents home, for ex, you can really see what kind of behavior ads are ingraining in little brains: "I want this!", "Why is this so short?", "Why don't they tell the price?". That's always an opportunity for me to educate them to what's actually happening before their eyes: "look guys, this is a company (some people at work) that's working to expose their products (toys) to your eyes, hoping that you will ask your parents to spend money to buy it. They're smart, but we are smarter!". I'm very inclined to think that toddlers should not have access to tablets, moreover to mainstream games on Android/Iphone. My personnal guess is that It's not preparing them to mastering technology, it's preparing them to be addicted to technology.

flurdy 8y ago
Father of primary school aged girls here. Before the kids came the plan was a low tech kids home, reality then smacked us in the face and we compromised. Kids have their own Amazon Fire Kids Unlimited tablets. Which is fairly locked down to their age groups and with no internet and only 30 minutes of app & videos allowed on school days, though unlimited books. The weekends are more generous. (I do love parents.amazon.com) Also added Netflix and BBC Iplayer Kids apps, and they watch BBC's CBeebies channel on the lounge TV occasionally. So normally they never see any ads. But sometimes shit has hit the fan, and they have to be up late watching a commercial kids channel on TV or borrow my phone to play games then they are exposed to ads. I then try to explain to them that ads are not necessarily true. They are trying to sell you something that you might not need or is as good as it pretends to be. Don't think that has sunk in yet. But they seem relatively shielded for now. But they have not got their own phones yet. I dread that day.
- secabeen 8y ago
  Amazon freetime does a pretty good job of curating the apps that are available, even going to the level of getting custom versions of popular apps with the ads and social media features removed. That doesn't stop blatant adver-games showing up (I'm looking at you, Ever After High), but even there, the advertising is the same sort of environment advertising that we saw 30 years ago in GI Joe and He-Man. That's not new.
simonh 8y ago
Our girls had an iPad mini each since they were 8 and 9. No real restrictions except occasional 'no devices' days and evenings, or, "you've played with that enough time to do something else". I get to approve all apps, but I've never actually found a reason to refuse one. A lot of the games they pay are ad supported. They're going to get exposed to ads whether I like it or not, and I'd rather they learned what they are, how they work and to just deal with and ignore them. You don't build up a resistance to germs by living in an antiseptic environment your whole life, and I think it's the same with ads. We make sure our girls have plenty of physical and mental activities to enjoy. Both of them love art and use our computers and iPads for drawing, sketching and painting as well as physical media. They're both musical playing the piano and flute, and occasionally play around with Garage Band and such but visual arts is their main thing. We encourage outdoors activities, they went horse riding for years but that's died off and they've both been in the Air Cadets here in the UK for about a year. To me it's about balance and encouraging responsibility. We're very much guiding our kids childhoods our way, the choices we make for them open some avenues but inevitably close off others. That seems to be working fine for us, but I've got no problem with your way. They're your kids and I fully understand why youre taking the approach you are. I just don't think it's the only responsible attitude.
- rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
  A middle ground approach from my experience: whenever I would watch tv with my mother, back in the ancient era before Netflix, she would always, always mute the tv when the ads came on. The ads were there, but we had that power over them.
  - Operyl 8y ago
    I’m shuddering at the thought of when it becomes impossible to be able to mute advertisements.
    - gruez 8y ago
      please drink validation can
hkmurakami 8y ago
I really laud your approach and hope I can do something similar. What concerns me though is how the challenge will become magnified as children get exposed to their classmates' phones and other gadgets, etc. And you lose control of your environment. Have you thought about how you'd like to deal with the future challenges ahead?
- sunnymano89 8y ago
  just before I saw the paycheck of $5703 , I accept that my mom in-law had been realy taking home money part-time from there pretty old laptop. . there uncle has been doing this for only six months and a short time ago paid the morgage on there house and got a great new Saab 99 Turbo . Get the facts.... https://bit.ly/2wxK4LN https://bit.ly/2wxK4LN
- bpizzi 8y ago
  It's concerning me too. I'm just going into it one step at a time ;)
- zubspace 8y ago
  What you need to keep in mind is that you can't control every aspect of your child's life as they grow older. For example friends and access to multimedia outside of your home. What you should provide is an open ear. Listen to the experiences of your child, explain things regarding why things are the way they are and provide guidelines, how to act responsibly. The most important thing in my opinion is, that you as a parent should stay involved and always be open for dialog. And have faith in your child to make sensible decisions.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> That's always an opportunity for me to educate them to what's actually happening before their eyes: "look guys, this is a company (some people at work) that's working to expose their products (toys) to your eyes, hoping that you will ask your parents to spend money to buy it. They're smart, but we are smarter!". You're stopping short of telling them about what is my real reason I hate ads. I wonder if the kids ever asked you why companies are doing it? The reason I hate ads is because it's a legitimized way of abuse, of hurting other people. I'm gonna be a father at some point, and I dread the day I have to explain to my kid that modern civilization is in this weird state, where it's "friendly" in the sense that you don't generally have to fear strangers, but it's also overrun by malicious actors trying to suck your money and happiness dry. Our civilization pays lip service to being cooperative, yet so much of it is still adversarial.
- fouc 8y ago
  I guess this might be the first time I've heard of ads being described as a form of abuse. You are probably onto something there. Thanks
  - thrav 8y ago
    Happy people aren’t great consumers. You only buy when you feel like your life is missing something that will get you to happiness. Therefore, Marketers’ job is to create a lack in you. To make you feel “less than” as you are currently. That does seem like the same thing a bully would do.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Yup. A sales person I know refers to this as "creating dissatisfaction", and used this concept designing his sales pitches.
- bpizzi 8y ago
  > I wonder if the kids ever asked you why companies are doing it? Actually they ask "why" every time for every thing that I say :) My sons are not yet (to my eyes) sufficiently mature to really hear a thorough answer to "why". I try to make them asking "How?" instead. I'm a hacker, not a philosopher ;) But, to relate to your answer, I'm not really trying to make them hating ads (thought I hate ads too, like you). Loving and hating things and people is up to them, I'm just giving context and knowledge (ok, sometimes it's hints on my own feelings on important subjects such as religion). That's of course a very personal pov on education.
antocv 8y ago
We do the same here, but there is no proprietary software, only FOSS. The 3 year old knows how to start his own netbook which has ArchLinux with KDE on it, and he knows how to start the potato-guy game. And he learned to use the touchpad, which is nice. Thats all he does computing wise, the smartphone is not trustworthy (despite being LineageOS with no google on it, the Android interface is just too convulsed) to be exposed to toddler yet. The TV is used to watch educational shows like songs of letters and numbers, through kodi, the TV cant even tune in to normal TV channels, only content I placed on Kodi for him to find if he ever learns to use its remote. So far this 3 year old speaks like a 5 year old, understands 3 languages, and can read 3-4 letter words, has friends and creative mind when drawing stuff.
- JeanMarcS 8y ago
  My son was very proud of himself the day he showed me how the remote worked. Before that, the kids could only see tv if they asked my wife or me. And they only got kodi. On my side, I was also very proud, because he was almost seven when it happened ! We managed to « force » them using their toys or play outside instead of spending worthless time in front of a screen. I like to think (hope ?) it’s the right thing to do.
  - mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
    Man, I wish someone would tell my 1 year old that TV remote is off limits. He knows exactly what it does. Grabs it and starts pressing buttons to turn on TV. Of course he can’t navigate to Netflix unless he hits that button but he tries them all.
    - JeanMarcS 8y ago
      To be honest and for context : 1) I’m French so maybe we don’t have TV on all the times (not saying that it’s true in the US, but it’s the impression I have from here. I might also be totally wrong. And in France a lot of people have TV on most of the time. But my wife and I don’t) 2) our kids (they’re twins) saw their first cartoon around 2,5 yo. They didn’t seen a TV on before that. And of course it fascinated them as any screen can do. It was Cars and I show them in 4 parts on 4 consecutive days. 3) Our TV is plugged on a RPI with kodi and you couldn’t use it with the TV remote (only with our smartphones) until they were 5 (and I bought a TV compatible with Anynet), so even if they managed to start the tv, they couldn’t go further. Maybe they did, maybe not, but they never told us if they did :)
p410n3 8y ago
For this same reason I like youtube Kids. Its...not as good as the OG youtube app, you cant really search for channels easily and all, but no ads is a godsend! Oh and of course always be present and watch with the kids. Even the handpicked stuff on youtube is weird at times... or just not weird but spanish and the small ones are brabbling nonsense for the next hours. Muchos respectos to your approach
- Plastikdusche 8y ago
  Being able to block certain channels / videos is something I want to try out one day, well mainly just Blippi. We watch YouTube with our 3year old and it's near impossible to avoid his videos being suggested to you. While the content itself is fine, I feel like he crosses a line how bluntly he pushes his toys / videos on to his viewers. Along the lines of "go tell your parents, siblings, babysitters to download/ buy my stuff"
- paulie_a 8y ago
  I honestly like the concept of YouTube kids, but is there a way to disable the ads for it? I don't have kids. But I see ads for it constantly. You would think google would target their own ads for their services a little better.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    YouTube Red/Premium does, but its only available in some countries.
philliphaydon 8y ago
Ah why can't I favourite a comment. I just had a baby girl 2 weeks ago, and the wife and I agree to not having her on cellphone/tablet with games and such, becoming antisocial. When we have dinner, no phones, we sit and eat as a family. I really hate seeing kids on phones watching cartoons or playing games while at dinner.
- switch007 8y ago
  Congratulations! And I wish you luck: the few new families I know all said no tablets/chocolate etc but succumbed. I don't judge them. Sleep deprivation and full time jobs make it very difficult to be a "perfect" parent.
  - philliphaydon 8y ago
    Thank you!!! I’m pretty determined to not have a kid glued to a screen. So I’ll do my best. Intend to ready story books to her a lot and get her interested in reading. I don’t have any tablets. So that’s a plus. (Gave iPad to Mother in law)
- fenomas 8y ago
  FYI: clicking on the "47 minutes ago" bit of a comment header takes you to the comment page, which has a "favorite" link.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > Ah why can't I favourite a comment. You can. Click on the timestamp of that comment, and the "favourite" link will be there.
  - philliphaydon 8y ago
    AH THANK YOU!!!!
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  My 1 year old watches Netflix kids singing show. I am not proud of it but it has been a life saver given how difficult he can be.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
I'd be hesitant to give them an internet connected device for entertainment purposes; not when there's great and cheaper alternatives (smartphones / tablets are relatively expensive). I'm thinking a Nintendo console or handheld - I got a new 2DS, it's pretty great. Those new mini models are pretty neat too (nes, snes, playstation is coming out soon, n64 is sure to follow), although I dunno if kids these days would enjoy them as much as we did the original consoles. TL;DR: Don't let your kids play free games or consume free content. There's always a catch.
- bpizzi 8y ago
  > Those new mini models are pretty neat too (nes, snes, playstation is coming out soon, n64 is sure to follow), although I dunno if kids these days would enjoy them as much as we did the original consoles. My boys are loving Bomberman so much!
_pmf_ 8y ago
> But they have to enter one command on the little Bluetooth keyboard (and they do!). That's a cute little touch. Sad that the Play Store does not have a curated kids' section with pay-once, ad free and in-app purchase free apps (on the other hand, I can regard this as a concession to the fact that it's ultimately my responsibility as a parent to vet apps).
- majewsky 8y ago
  It's probably more of a concession to the fact that in-app purchases is where the money is.
  - _pmf_ 8y ago
    > It's probably more of a concession to the fact that in-app purchases is where the money is. I'm having an ethically generous day ...
bspammer 8y ago
What age do you think is appropriate to introduce them to the internet? I'm sure at the moment you're pretty safe, but at some point your kids are gonna be introduced to it in IT classes at school, and by staying at friends' houses. I'd want to get in first to teach responsible internet use (of course with a good ad blocker and whitelisting of domains). There's some really good educational stuff out there on YouTube and elsewhere. I think I would have loved to have watched a channel like Clickspring when I was younger.
- bpizzi 8y ago
  > What age do you think is appropriate to introduce them to the internet? My personal stake on this is: they're just barely starting to learn how to count, read and write. It's way too much early to have them seat before a whiteboard and hearing me speaking and drawing schemas about TCP/IP, subnets masks, transport and routing protocols, HTTP, HTML/JS hosting and delivery and finally what's going on in that blackbox that we call "a browser".
  - albertgoeswoof 8y ago
    But how will they get the 15 years of web development experience required for their first internship if they don’t start young?
    - bpizzi 8y ago
      Then I may have to reconsider my point of view, based on that new information I'm glad you made me aware of :)
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    Love this response. So many here are advocating building up a tolerance to the garbage of the internet instead of learning the important parts. This is what it means to be computer literate, not snapchat experience, which will be another myspace in five years.
    - 8y ago
JMiao 8y ago
my only game playing growing up happened during long vacations on a 386 machine where i had to learn dos, qbasic commands to make anything happen. got me wondering how my computer worked and what else it could do. a grateful inconvenience!
gammateam 8y ago
just a matter of time until they realize all their friend's games are way more entertaining, if they haven't already tick tock OP
- bpizzi 8y ago
  > until they realize all their friend's games are way more entertaining Either we're not from the same continent/culture (I'm french), or you're completely disconnected from what a 5/7 yo child is doing nowadays. The ultimate toy in my oldest's school currently is glass balls. Buy him a hand of new colorful glass balls and he'll be the king of the school for the day. Tablets games? PS4? Fb/youtube? Smartphones? Yes, maybe in 5 years, if even. Right now the oldest's dearest aspiration is to someday be able to go to school alone. And the young one? At 5yo he's barely a child, what he's looking after is his parents' attention, getting cuddled, and laughing as much as possible. My sons' friends are just the same. > tick tock OP What's your point anyway? Of course they're going to grow, the grow a little bit every day in fact. Actually, I'm not sure you're a parent.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    good luck with your retro gaming regime, I see a lot of fathers independently coming up with that "original" idea
    - bpizzi 8y ago
      Seems like your misreading me for some kind of pretentious father who has the answer to everything. Which I'm not, I just made choices. We should stop here.
ptd 8y ago
How do you control the content your children are exposed to once they go to school? I remember being shocked about a decade ago that a group of 3rd graders had seen The Hangover(a rated R movie) without the permission of their parents. When I asked how they were able to do this without their parents knowing, they almost laughed at me. The idea that their parents could effectively censor the content they consumed was not something they understood. There was always someone with a phone, computer, laptop, USB key, DVD, etc. When kids are young and you(or a loved one) has eyes on them 24/7 it’s easy to control their lives, and the content they are exposed to. I’m very curious as to how parents effectively censor the world for older kids who are around other kids, without turning into the dreaded “helicopter” parent. It seems like an overwhelming challenge.
- bpizzi 8y ago
  Has another commenter said, and I agree with him, as kids grows into teenage age, supporting and explaining is more efficient than controlling.
- teekert 8y ago
  Well, that is a strange school, such a viewing would cause nationwide outrage if it happened in my country.
  - ptd 8y ago
    Even in the best schools, it’s impossible to have eyes on what every kid is watching all day. You can ban technology, but even then clever kids will figure out a way to get them in. I also don’t believe the viewing was done in school, but the kids were classmates who met in school.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  > How do you control the content your children are exposed to once they go to school? Not OP, but in my opinion it should be pretty easy to control undesirable content. Nobody likes ads; I see no reason for the kids to actively seek out ads once they know what ads really are. As far as controlling "desirable" content like movies, games, etc, I'm not sure it should be, but that's a rant for another day!
pwenzel 8y ago
Word. I like the idea of a desktop with no internet! What's the best offline encyclopedia in 2018 these days? Our family has a TV on wheels that gets put in the closet and brought out primarily on weekends. Just an Apple TV with a few ad-free channels. When my 7 yo comes home from school and discovers the TV has been put away, he just goes and plays with his legos! My phone has no games, but it has lots of apps for making music, and the kids are in to that (See Figure from Propellerhead/Allihoopa).
- gpm 8y ago
  > What's the best offline encyclopedia in 2018 these days? Probably Wikipedia? You can download a copy of it in your preferred language. I've been thinking about doing so, and would be interested if anyone has a favorite viewer.
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    I'm not sure Wikipedia would be the best choice—you want kids to understand it's not a definitive information source and that you need to check the citation links for anything serious. To be very, very clear, I'm not anti-Wikipedia, I just think a "real" encyclopedia would be much better. Britannica stills sells DVD's that can be used offline.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > I'm not sure Wikipedia would be the best choice—you want kids to understand it's not a definitive information source and that you need to check the citation links for anything serious. That's, like, one of the first things we were taught about using an encyclopedia as a tool for research papers in elementary school, long before Wikipedia or even the Web was a thing. That's kind of the nature of tertiary sources, particularly broad-focus ones that boil down complex domains to short articles, including print encyclopedias. > To be very, very clear, I'm not anti-Wikipedia, I just think a "real" encyclopedia would be much better. The actual reviews that have been done, starting with Nature’s in 2005, have not supported the conclusion that Britannica or other print encyclopedias are much better than Wikipedia, either in terms of accuracy of factual content or in terms of things like providing appropriate citations.
Novashi 8y ago
I hope it doesn't turn south and they figure out how easy it is to use technology to exploit people and get money and then decide to go do that for a job.
rayiner 8y ago
Counter natrative. My daughter is 6. She has an iPad (wifi) and an iPhone 6+ (with cell service). She learned to use them herself, and tne only thing off limits are toy opening videos. She has an encyclopedic knowledge of brand names and all the backstory for the LOL dolla or whatever she is into these days. She also gets perfect grades (as they are in kindergarten), is active in gymnastics, has real life friends she plays outside with, etc.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  Same here. I think the "no screens" hysteria of the day is a lot like the Dungeons and Dragons hysteria of the 80s, although I think ads are very dangerous to kids and to be avoided if at all possible. I talk about ads with my daughter, and explain to them what their purpose is, and how they're not appropriate to watch just like the scary stuff she doesn't like, and I think she gets it. One of her favorite things to do at 4 was tap "skip ad" and she'd shout it out whenever she found the "X" or link to skip them. I also run a pi-hole-like setup at home, filtering most ads at the DNS level, so we are overall as a family exposed to that abuse far less than unfiltered households.
sAbakumoff 8y ago
not a kid expert, but isn't restrictive environment just forces them to inevitable desire to try something that other kids do regularly?
sevensor 8y ago
My children are allowed to play on Fire tablets only during car trips, and only until the battery runs dry. The funny thing is, all the games stop working in between uses -- they expect to be able to phone home frequently, and most of the time they're on, they're not connected to the internet. So every long trip is preceded by a cycle of tablet charging and installing new games. When one of my kids asked me why we had to do this, I explained that we were able to get these tablets so cheap because Amazon and the game publishers get to be in control of what's on there. This led to an interesting conversation about the difference between tablets and laptops, and why Frozen Bubble and Tux Paint never stop working. The game content is basically all branded characters.
LitFan 8y ago
This comment is only my own opinion: I believe you're teaching your children to be children instead of teaching them to be people. You're creating an advertisement free bubble for them to live in - once they're living on their own, they'll lack experience dealing with exposure to advertisement. You see benefit in the teaching opportunities in the times your kids are exposed. I'd argue you would have more teaching opportunities if they were exposed more often. The sooner they see it's a part of every day life, the sooner they'll be equipped to handle it on their own. That said, maybe this is hypocritical. I stop my daughter from doing things I know will harm her (using knives, seeing scary things), maybe I'm just not being cautious enough about what I shield her from.
- ballenf 8y ago
  At some age you are correct, but I don't think 5 or 7 is it. Kid's reasoning skills just aren't developed enough yet at 5 to really understand what advertisers' motives are. Exposure will do little more than desensitize them to ads and instead let their subconscious absorb the message. I'd rather my kids find ads jarring when they are exposed en masse to them rather than be too comfortable around them. There are a lot of things that 5 and 7 year olds shouldn't be exposed to yet, not just ads.
  - LitFan 8y ago
    > Exposure will do little more than desensitize them to ads and instead let their subconscious absorb the message. Good point. I guess helpings kids to learn to think objectively in general is the key to helping them think objectively about the things we shield them from when they're young.
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    Agree there a lot of things kids don’t need, and the teenage years are a better time to expose them.
  - Mirioron 8y ago
    >Exposure will do little more than desensitize them to ads and instead let their subconscious absorb the message. This isn't how it works. If a kid sees ads repeatedly then it initially increases their preference for them, but later lowers that preference again. Overabundance of ads will desensitize kids to them and will make them less interested in them. You shielding your kids from ads will likely make them more affected by ads when they get a glimpse of them here and there. Ads that affect you subconsciously are not the type you see on TV or on a poster. The subconscious effects of ads come from things like your kid repeatedly seeing you using tide pods to wash their clothes.
rotw 8y ago
That sounds like a great environment! It seems like a tricky issue for people without the requisite know-how (and most of all, time), though. I worry that in the future, there might be a measurable decline in attention span and cognitive ability among children from poorer households, whose parents, through demands from long hours, lack of education, and lack of access to premium ad-free services, were unable to provide them with such an environment where they are protected from bombardment from technology. What kind of ready-made, low-information consumer level solutions would you consider important to expand here?
oliwarner 8y ago
I'm perennially confused by the opinions expressed on HN and this is is no exception; the range alone is quite amazing. I am with you. I think advertisers —and the people implementing their work— are a net bad, at all ages. They are actively and openly trying to force influence on people to get them to spend money. Why would you want that for yourself, let alone your kids? "But they'll never learn!" - the hell they wont. You don't need to cut your leg off to know it'll hurt. Talking about this stuff, as you have, is the perfect way to expose them to what's actually going on. The unfettered "Let them learn their own way" nonsense doesn't do it justice. "My kids are fine!" is an anecdote, not an argument. How about one of the dozens of reviews of the impacts of junk food advertising on diet, spurring record rates of childhood obesity? https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx I don't get it. Your right to hold your own opinion is an important thing. Letting people (and now AI) openly influence you is a stupid decision. Letting them do the same to your children is much worse. And what I originally came here to say was that I applaud you getting your kids on real computers. The education system —in general— has given up on educating computing because "kids know how to use everything". 20 years ago, we were taught how to use office productivity apps (eg MS Office), mostly worked into other lessons as part of the (eg) data collection (eg Bio, Geography). Ask today's school leavers to make you a pivot table. Edit: The only place I might deviate from you is internet access. I've got a few years before self-learning is a thing for my children, but when they're ready, I'll be more than happy to give them access to Wikipedia and other sanitised (read: ad free, "people aren't the product") learning resources.
- redbeard0x0a 8y ago
  I've been paying for Youtube Premium (was "Youtube Red") for a while. While there are product placements and sponsorships in videos, not having to watch ads placed in the middle of videos is awesome. It makes YT a million times better, it isn't something you realize fully until you start watching a video on somebody else's phone/laptop/etc.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  >I think advertisers —and the people implementing their work— are a net bad, at all ages. They are actively and openly trying to force influence on people to get them to spend money. Why would you want that for yourself, let alone your kids? Because you want to learn about new products in some way, don't you? You also want companies to create new products, don't you? Advertisement is a necessary part in both of these. Few things spread fast enough with word of mouth alone. >"My kids are fine!" is an anecdote, not an argument. How about one of the dozens of reviews of the impacts of junk food advertising on diet, spurring record rates of childhood obesity? https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx The article does not claim that it's a causal link. They quite clearly say that it's a correlation. The causal link could even be the other way around. >Letting people (and now AI) openly influence you is a stupid decision. Letting them do the same to your children is much worse. How do you propose that you or your kids learn knowledge? That's letting other people influence you. My guess is that your kids will pick up these "negative influences" anyway, but they will never tell you.
brightball 8y ago
Agreed. My kids are allowed to play WiiU and Nintendo Switch, but anything on an iPad or an iPhone is off limits for exactly that reason. I saw so many scary behaviors appearing that simply do not happen with Nintendo games.
- LiterallyDoge 8y ago
  Can you elaborate?
  - brightball 8y ago
    Getting seriously upset if he couldn't get to the iPad. To the point of tears. He knew his "schedule" of exactly how long he had to wait for new things to be unlocked in the game. Clicked every ad that he could to get bonus things. Saw so many of the ad videos that he wanted to download more "free" games. Eventually he had a few of these going that had timed item releases that if he didn't get to his ipad for every single one of them, it became very upsetting to the point of almost debilitating. None of this stuff had ever happened with any previous games on the Nintendo consoles we have. We never saw anything like it when he'd watch kid shows on Netflix or family movies. We ended up taking the iPad away completely one day when he accidentally did something around the house that really hurt his mom...and his only concern was when he could get back on the games. At that point...we were done. iPad/iPhone games have been entirely gone ever since and after a couple of days when I explained to him what those games were doing to him, he seemed to get it and doesn't even want to play them anymore. He plays Wii with his sister or friends, watches TV or movies periodically but it's all at a level I would call healthly. There's no addictive behavior to it and if he can't play, he just can't play. It's not a big deal and he finds something else to do. He doesn't choose anything else over family or time with friends. But every one of those iDevice games seem engineered to get that type of behavior. I'm now extremely wary of any "free" games that are out there, which has been difficult because I've been keeping him away from Fortnite all summer. A lot of the parent stories that I've heard / read from it have made me feel a lot better about the decision though. At this point, "free" video games connected to the internet are a hard pass at my house.
nine_k 8y ago
Pretty drastic, I'd say. My 10 y.o. has a tablet, with internet access, and even Youtube enabled. But: * Youtube is paid (no ads); * All apps are either free without ads, or paid and thus without ads. * No network-played games, no addictive (bejeweled-style) games. I curate the apps that get installed. * There's a Linux PC with a browser (ad-blocked), and a bunch of drawing and educational programs; it also serves as a "TV" for stuff stored on local NAS. She started to draw using a desktop computer when she was 5.5; by now, she can read and type in two languages, and nobody systematically taught her typing. This opens up a lot of great educational content, and filters out most of the silly or addictive content.
novaleaf 8y ago
I'm pretty near your situation (8 and 6yr olds), and do some things similar to you. Tip: if you want to remove ads/filter internet, it's easy to do on android: install a VPN firewall app and block everything. no more ads. A criticism however: I think you are letting your nostalgia for the games of your youth impact your decision making here. What makes 80's/90's games inherently better than the modern options of today? I would actually postulate that they are all equally bad for youths. If you work hard enough, you can find enough edutainment options for kids to satisfy their "screen time" entertainment needs, though I admit it is a lot of work curating content.
blackhaz 8y ago
My son (9 years old) is turning into a Fortnite addict. I'm blaming myself for allowing online games. I've built him a PC so he could learn how to program. Sometimes we experiment with Unity together, sometimes we spend time in Python. But lately Fortnite is grabbing him more and more, and he spends all his allowed time (1.5 hours per day) there, so there's no time left for exploring other things. He can't control himself. He spends his savings on virtual items, significant amounts. He just blew $40 worth of his savings on virtual stuff. I Googled for "fortnite addiction" and was shocked how many similar stories there are. It is an epidemy. Game shops are exploiting advanced psychological tactics to turn young generation into addicts. I am thinking more and more that this should be regulated. There should be a set of rules that a game shouldn't break. For example, prohibiting sales of items, or putting a cap on that. No gambling. A user should be able to pause a game without being punished. And so on... Isn't there a way at all? I understand this is stepping on personal liberties, but it hurts to know dudes in Epic Games are stuffing their wallets while young kids are breaking their banks to buy virtual pistols and don't have ways to exit that world without taking a hit. Especially since playgrounds are empty and streets are not playgrounds anymore. I blame myself.
- lsmarigo 8y ago
  > I blame myself. This is a narrative the game industry has been successfully pushing through organized PR campaigns and astroturfing online discussions, of course parents share some responsibility but this angle is disingenuous and lets publishers off the hook too easily. I wouldn't beat yourself up too much here you're aware of the situation and actively involved in fixing it. > Game shops are exploiting advanced psychological tactics to turn young generation into addicts. This + the instantly available secondary market which allows you to gamble with your digital goods/currency is the major difference between this and it's predecessor: baseball/pokemon/magic the gathering card packs. Belgium/EU are making strong moves on this but very doubtful we'll see any movement in the US anytime soon, a New Hampshire senator dared to question the situation and was blasted by an aggressive letter from the ESRB claiming loot boxes are not at all gambling. The games industry is uniquely positioned to allow for this kind of abuse because the primary targets (marks) are unorganized young children that don't know any better. Most games are just a vessel for the 'marketplace' which is an online casino for kids. The current state of gaming is shocking, regulation is desperately needed.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
alistproducer2 8y ago
Your strategy pretty much mirrors mine exactly. with a few exceptions. The grandparents got my son a Leap Pad, which we let him play a couple hours on weekends and they play iPad games when they're over the grandparent's when they visit once a week. I've noticed the same things as you when my kids watch ads at the grandparent's. Their reactions show advertising to children for exactly what it is - taking advantage of young minds that cannot defend themselves. We have a smart TV that has it's network access controlled by my router that limits their screen time. My daughter has a clam shell phone to call us in case of emergency but neither child will never have a smart phone as long as they're in my house. I've plainly told the wife's family do not buy my kids any more technology without asking us first because it will end up in the garbage. I don't accept the opinion that these technologies are benign, especially from people like my wife's family who have never actually given the subject any serious or considered thought.
tmaly 8y ago
I allow access to a very limited set of educational apps for a limited duration, less than 20 minutes for my 5 year old daughter. The apps I choose are usually paid apps that do not have ads in them. The only other technology I allow is a one on one session programming games in Scratch 3.
xvector 8y ago
No internet access at 7 years old? That's pretty brutal. The internet was a central part of my childhood, I can't imagine myself without it.
- bpizzi 8y ago
  How old are you? What were you doing at 7 on the internet? What do you think a 7yo would do today on current's web?
Mirioron 8y ago
What if exposing them to ads when they are young builds up a tolerance towards ads? I definitely saw ads ever since I was young, but I pay no attention to ads nowadays. Often I don't even realize ads are there, because I seem to filter them out. On another note, by age 7 you would expect them to be able to launch Age of Empires on their own though.

by bpizzi 8y ago

flurdy 8y ago

Father of primary school aged girls here. Before the kids came the plan was a low tech kids home, reality then smacked us in the face and we compromised. Kids have their own Amazon Fire Kids Unlimited tablets. Which is fairly locked down to their age groups and with no internet and only 30 minutes of app & videos allowed on school days, though unlimited books. The weekends are more generous. (I do love parents.amazon.com) Also added Netflix and BBC Iplayer Kids apps, and they watch BBC's CBeebies channel on the lounge TV occasionally. So normally they never see any ads. But sometimes shit has hit the fan, and they have to be up late watching a commercial kids channel on TV or borrow my phone to play games then they are exposed to ads. I then try to explain to them that ads are not necessarily true. They are trying to sell you something that you might not need or is as good as it pretends to be. Don't think that has sunk in yet. But they seem relatively shielded for now. But they have not got their own phones yet. I dread that day.

secabeen 8y ago
Amazon freetime does a pretty good job of curating the apps that are available, even going to the level of getting custom versions of popular apps with the ads and social media features removed. That doesn't stop blatant adver-games showing up (I'm looking at you, Ever After High), but even there, the advertising is the same sort of environment advertising that we saw 30 years ago in GI Joe and He-Man. That's not new.

simonh 8y ago

Our girls had an iPad mini each since they were 8 and 9. No real restrictions except occasional 'no devices' days and evenings, or, "you've played with that enough time to do something else". I get to approve all apps, but I've never actually found a reason to refuse one. A lot of the games they pay are ad supported. They're going to get exposed to ads whether I like it or not, and I'd rather they learned what they are, how they work and to just deal with and ignore them. You don't build up a resistance to germs by living in an antiseptic environment your whole life, and I think it's the same with ads. We make sure our girls have plenty of physical and mental activities to enjoy. Both of them love art and use our computers and iPads for drawing, sketching and painting as well as physical media. They're both musical playing the piano and flute, and occasionally play around with Garage Band and such but visual arts is their main thing. We encourage outdoors activities, they went horse riding for years but that's died off and they've both been in the Air Cadets here in the UK for about a year. To me it's about balance and encouraging responsibility. We're very much guiding our kids childhoods our way, the choices we make for them open some avenues but inevitably close off others. That seems to be working fine for us, but I've got no problem with your way. They're your kids and I fully understand why youre taking the approach you are. I just don't think it's the only responsible attitude.

rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
A middle ground approach from my experience: whenever I would watch tv with my mother, back in the ancient era before Netflix, she would always, always mute the tv when the ads came on. The ads were there, but we had that power over them.
- Operyl 8y ago
  I’m shuddering at the thought of when it becomes impossible to be able to mute advertisements.
  - gruez 8y ago
    please drink validation can

hkmurakami 8y ago

I really laud your approach and hope I can do something similar. What concerns me though is how the challenge will become magnified as children get exposed to their classmates' phones and other gadgets, etc. And you lose control of your environment. Have you thought about how you'd like to deal with the future challenges ahead?

sunnymano89 8y ago
just before I saw the paycheck of $5703 , I accept that my mom in-law had been realy taking home money part-time from there pretty old laptop. . there uncle has been doing this for only six months and a short time ago paid the morgage on there house and got a great new Saab 99 Turbo . Get the facts.... https://bit.ly/2wxK4LN https://bit.ly/2wxK4LN
bpizzi 8y ago
It's concerning me too. I'm just going into it one step at a time ;)
zubspace 8y ago
What you need to keep in mind is that you can't control every aspect of your child's life as they grow older. For example friends and access to multimedia outside of your home. What you should provide is an open ear. Listen to the experiences of your child, explain things regarding why things are the way they are and provide guidelines, how to act responsibly. The most important thing in my opinion is, that you as a parent should stay involved and always be open for dialog. And have faith in your child to make sensible decisions.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> That's always an opportunity for me to educate them to what's actually happening before their eyes: "look guys, this is a company (some people at work) that's working to expose their products (toys) to your eyes, hoping that you will ask your parents to spend money to buy it. They're smart, but we are smarter!". You're stopping short of telling them about what is my real reason I hate ads. I wonder if the kids ever asked you why companies are doing it? The reason I hate ads is because it's a legitimized way of abuse, of hurting other people. I'm gonna be a father at some point, and I dread the day I have to explain to my kid that modern civilization is in this weird state, where it's "friendly" in the sense that you don't generally have to fear strangers, but it's also overrun by malicious actors trying to suck your money and happiness dry. Our civilization pays lip service to being cooperative, yet so much of it is still adversarial.

fouc 8y ago
I guess this might be the first time I've heard of ads being described as a form of abuse. You are probably onto something there. Thanks
- thrav 8y ago
  Happy people aren’t great consumers. You only buy when you feel like your life is missing something that will get you to happiness. Therefore, Marketers’ job is to create a lack in you. To make you feel “less than” as you are currently. That does seem like the same thing a bully would do.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Yup. A sales person I know refers to this as "creating dissatisfaction", and used this concept designing his sales pitches.
bpizzi 8y ago
> I wonder if the kids ever asked you why companies are doing it? Actually they ask "why" every time for every thing that I say :) My sons are not yet (to my eyes) sufficiently mature to really hear a thorough answer to "why". I try to make them asking "How?" instead. I'm a hacker, not a philosopher ;) But, to relate to your answer, I'm not really trying to make them hating ads (thought I hate ads too, like you). Loving and hating things and people is up to them, I'm just giving context and knowledge (ok, sometimes it's hints on my own feelings on important subjects such as religion). That's of course a very personal pov on education.

antocv 8y ago

We do the same here, but there is no proprietary software, only FOSS. The 3 year old knows how to start his own netbook which has ArchLinux with KDE on it, and he knows how to start the potato-guy game. And he learned to use the touchpad, which is nice. Thats all he does computing wise, the smartphone is not trustworthy (despite being LineageOS with no google on it, the Android interface is just too convulsed) to be exposed to toddler yet. The TV is used to watch educational shows like songs of letters and numbers, through kodi, the TV cant even tune in to normal TV channels, only content I placed on Kodi for him to find if he ever learns to use its remote. So far this 3 year old speaks like a 5 year old, understands 3 languages, and can read 3-4 letter words, has friends and creative mind when drawing stuff.

JeanMarcS 8y ago
My son was very proud of himself the day he showed me how the remote worked. Before that, the kids could only see tv if they asked my wife or me. And they only got kodi. On my side, I was also very proud, because he was almost seven when it happened ! We managed to « force » them using their toys or play outside instead of spending worthless time in front of a screen. I like to think (hope ?) it’s the right thing to do.
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  Man, I wish someone would tell my 1 year old that TV remote is off limits. He knows exactly what it does. Grabs it and starts pressing buttons to turn on TV. Of course he can’t navigate to Netflix unless he hits that button but he tries them all.
  - JeanMarcS 8y ago
    To be honest and for context : 1) I’m French so maybe we don’t have TV on all the times (not saying that it’s true in the US, but it’s the impression I have from here. I might also be totally wrong. And in France a lot of people have TV on most of the time. But my wife and I don’t) 2) our kids (they’re twins) saw their first cartoon around 2,5 yo. They didn’t seen a TV on before that. And of course it fascinated them as any screen can do. It was Cars and I show them in 4 parts on 4 consecutive days. 3) Our TV is plugged on a RPI with kodi and you couldn’t use it with the TV remote (only with our smartphones) until they were 5 (and I bought a TV compatible with Anynet), so even if they managed to start the tv, they couldn’t go further. Maybe they did, maybe not, but they never told us if they did :)

p410n3 8y ago

For this same reason I like youtube Kids. Its...not as good as the OG youtube app, you cant really search for channels easily and all, but no ads is a godsend! Oh and of course always be present and watch with the kids. Even the handpicked stuff on youtube is weird at times... or just not weird but spanish and the small ones are brabbling nonsense for the next hours. Muchos respectos to your approach

Plastikdusche 8y ago
Being able to block certain channels / videos is something I want to try out one day, well mainly just Blippi. We watch YouTube with our 3year old and it's near impossible to avoid his videos being suggested to you. While the content itself is fine, I feel like he crosses a line how bluntly he pushes his toys / videos on to his viewers. Along the lines of "go tell your parents, siblings, babysitters to download/ buy my stuff"
paulie_a 8y ago
I honestly like the concept of YouTube kids, but is there a way to disable the ads for it? I don't have kids. But I see ads for it constantly. You would think google would target their own ads for their services a little better.
- hndamien 8y ago
  YouTube Red/Premium does, but its only available in some countries.

philliphaydon 8y ago

Ah why can't I favourite a comment. I just had a baby girl 2 weeks ago, and the wife and I agree to not having her on cellphone/tablet with games and such, becoming antisocial. When we have dinner, no phones, we sit and eat as a family. I really hate seeing kids on phones watching cartoons or playing games while at dinner.

switch007 8y ago
Congratulations! And I wish you luck: the few new families I know all said no tablets/chocolate etc but succumbed. I don't judge them. Sleep deprivation and full time jobs make it very difficult to be a "perfect" parent.
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  Thank you!!! I’m pretty determined to not have a kid glued to a screen. So I’ll do my best. Intend to ready story books to her a lot and get her interested in reading. I don’t have any tablets. So that’s a plus. (Gave iPad to Mother in law)
fenomas 8y ago
FYI: clicking on the "47 minutes ago" bit of a comment header takes you to the comment page, which has a "favorite" link.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> Ah why can't I favourite a comment. You can. Click on the timestamp of that comment, and the "favourite" link will be there.
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  AH THANK YOU!!!!
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
My 1 year old watches Netflix kids singing show. I am not proud of it but it has been a life saver given how difficult he can be.

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

I'd be hesitant to give them an internet connected device for entertainment purposes; not when there's great and cheaper alternatives (smartphones / tablets are relatively expensive). I'm thinking a Nintendo console or handheld - I got a new 2DS, it's pretty great. Those new mini models are pretty neat too (nes, snes, playstation is coming out soon, n64 is sure to follow), although I dunno if kids these days would enjoy them as much as we did the original consoles. TL;DR: Don't let your kids play free games or consume free content. There's always a catch.

bpizzi 8y ago
> Those new mini models are pretty neat too (nes, snes, playstation is coming out soon, n64 is sure to follow), although I dunno if kids these days would enjoy them as much as we did the original consoles. My boys are loving Bomberman so much!

_pmf_ 8y ago

> But they have to enter one command on the little Bluetooth keyboard (and they do!). That's a cute little touch. Sad that the Play Store does not have a curated kids' section with pay-once, ad free and in-app purchase free apps (on the other hand, I can regard this as a concession to the fact that it's ultimately my responsibility as a parent to vet apps).

majewsky 8y ago
It's probably more of a concession to the fact that in-app purchases is where the money is.
- _pmf_ 8y ago
  > It's probably more of a concession to the fact that in-app purchases is where the money is. I'm having an ethically generous day ...

bspammer 8y ago

What age do you think is appropriate to introduce them to the internet? I'm sure at the moment you're pretty safe, but at some point your kids are gonna be introduced to it in IT classes at school, and by staying at friends' houses. I'd want to get in first to teach responsible internet use (of course with a good ad blocker and whitelisting of domains). There's some really good educational stuff out there on YouTube and elsewhere. I think I would have loved to have watched a channel like Clickspring when I was younger.

bpizzi 8y ago
> What age do you think is appropriate to introduce them to the internet? My personal stake on this is: they're just barely starting to learn how to count, read and write. It's way too much early to have them seat before a whiteboard and hearing me speaking and drawing schemas about TCP/IP, subnets masks, transport and routing protocols, HTTP, HTML/JS hosting and delivery and finally what's going on in that blackbox that we call "a browser".
- albertgoeswoof 8y ago
  But how will they get the 15 years of web development experience required for their first internship if they don’t start young?
  - bpizzi 8y ago
    Then I may have to reconsider my point of view, based on that new information I'm glad you made me aware of :)
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Love this response. So many here are advocating building up a tolerance to the garbage of the internet instead of learning the important parts. This is what it means to be computer literate, not snapchat experience, which will be another myspace in five years.
  - 8y ago

JMiao 8y ago

my only game playing growing up happened during long vacations on a 386 machine where i had to learn dos, qbasic commands to make anything happen. got me wondering how my computer worked and what else it could do. a grateful inconvenience!

gammateam 8y ago

just a matter of time until they realize all their friend's games are way more entertaining, if they haven't already tick tock OP

bpizzi 8y ago
> until they realize all their friend's games are way more entertaining Either we're not from the same continent/culture (I'm french), or you're completely disconnected from what a 5/7 yo child is doing nowadays. The ultimate toy in my oldest's school currently is glass balls. Buy him a hand of new colorful glass balls and he'll be the king of the school for the day. Tablets games? PS4? Fb/youtube? Smartphones? Yes, maybe in 5 years, if even. Right now the oldest's dearest aspiration is to someday be able to go to school alone. And the young one? At 5yo he's barely a child, what he's looking after is his parents' attention, getting cuddled, and laughing as much as possible. My sons' friends are just the same. > tick tock OP What's your point anyway? Of course they're going to grow, the grow a little bit every day in fact. Actually, I'm not sure you're a parent.
- gammateam 8y ago
  good luck with your retro gaming regime, I see a lot of fathers independently coming up with that "original" idea
  - bpizzi 8y ago
    Seems like your misreading me for some kind of pretentious father who has the answer to everything. Which I'm not, I just made choices. We should stop here.

ptd 8y ago

How do you control the content your children are exposed to once they go to school? I remember being shocked about a decade ago that a group of 3rd graders had seen The Hangover(a rated R movie) without the permission of their parents. When I asked how they were able to do this without their parents knowing, they almost laughed at me. The idea that their parents could effectively censor the content they consumed was not something they understood. There was always someone with a phone, computer, laptop, USB key, DVD, etc. When kids are young and you(or a loved one) has eyes on them 24/7 it’s easy to control their lives, and the content they are exposed to. I’m very curious as to how parents effectively censor the world for older kids who are around other kids, without turning into the dreaded “helicopter” parent. It seems like an overwhelming challenge.

bpizzi 8y ago
Has another commenter said, and I agree with him, as kids grows into teenage age, supporting and explaining is more efficient than controlling.
teekert 8y ago
Well, that is a strange school, such a viewing would cause nationwide outrage if it happened in my country.
- ptd 8y ago
  Even in the best schools, it’s impossible to have eyes on what every kid is watching all day. You can ban technology, but even then clever kids will figure out a way to get them in. I also don’t believe the viewing was done in school, but the kids were classmates who met in school.
Rjevski 8y ago
> How do you control the content your children are exposed to once they go to school? Not OP, but in my opinion it should be pretty easy to control undesirable content. Nobody likes ads; I see no reason for the kids to actively seek out ads once they know what ads really are. As far as controlling "desirable" content like movies, games, etc, I'm not sure it should be, but that's a rant for another day!

pwenzel 8y ago

Word. I like the idea of a desktop with no internet! What's the best offline encyclopedia in 2018 these days? Our family has a TV on wheels that gets put in the closet and brought out primarily on weekends. Just an Apple TV with a few ad-free channels. When my 7 yo comes home from school and discovers the TV has been put away, he just goes and plays with his legos! My phone has no games, but it has lots of apps for making music, and the kids are in to that (See Figure from Propellerhead/Allihoopa).

gpm 8y ago
> What's the best offline encyclopedia in 2018 these days? Probably Wikipedia? You can download a copy of it in your preferred language. I've been thinking about doing so, and would be interested if anyone has a favorite viewer.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  I'm not sure Wikipedia would be the best choice—you want kids to understand it's not a definitive information source and that you need to check the citation links for anything serious. To be very, very clear, I'm not anti-Wikipedia, I just think a "real" encyclopedia would be much better. Britannica stills sells DVD's that can be used offline.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > I'm not sure Wikipedia would be the best choice—you want kids to understand it's not a definitive information source and that you need to check the citation links for anything serious. That's, like, one of the first things we were taught about using an encyclopedia as a tool for research papers in elementary school, long before Wikipedia or even the Web was a thing. That's kind of the nature of tertiary sources, particularly broad-focus ones that boil down complex domains to short articles, including print encyclopedias. > To be very, very clear, I'm not anti-Wikipedia, I just think a "real" encyclopedia would be much better. The actual reviews that have been done, starting with Nature’s in 2005, have not supported the conclusion that Britannica or other print encyclopedias are much better than Wikipedia, either in terms of accuracy of factual content or in terms of things like providing appropriate citations.

Novashi 8y ago

I hope it doesn't turn south and they figure out how easy it is to use technology to exploit people and get money and then decide to go do that for a job.

rayiner 8y ago

Counter natrative. My daughter is 6. She has an iPad (wifi) and an iPhone 6+ (with cell service). She learned to use them herself, and tne only thing off limits are toy opening videos. She has an encyclopedic knowledge of brand names and all the backstory for the LOL dolla or whatever she is into these days. She also gets perfect grades (as they are in kindergarten), is active in gymnastics, has real life friends she plays outside with, etc.

ryandrake 8y ago
Same here. I think the "no screens" hysteria of the day is a lot like the Dungeons and Dragons hysteria of the 80s, although I think ads are very dangerous to kids and to be avoided if at all possible. I talk about ads with my daughter, and explain to them what their purpose is, and how they're not appropriate to watch just like the scary stuff she doesn't like, and I think she gets it. One of her favorite things to do at 4 was tap "skip ad" and she'd shout it out whenever she found the "X" or link to skip them. I also run a pi-hole-like setup at home, filtering most ads at the DNS level, so we are overall as a family exposed to that abuse far less than unfiltered households.

sAbakumoff 8y ago

not a kid expert, but isn't restrictive environment just forces them to inevitable desire to try something that other kids do regularly?

sevensor 8y ago

My children are allowed to play on Fire tablets only during car trips, and only until the battery runs dry. The funny thing is, all the games stop working in between uses -- they expect to be able to phone home frequently, and most of the time they're on, they're not connected to the internet. So every long trip is preceded by a cycle of tablet charging and installing new games. When one of my kids asked me why we had to do this, I explained that we were able to get these tablets so cheap because Amazon and the game publishers get to be in control of what's on there. This led to an interesting conversation about the difference between tablets and laptops, and why Frozen Bubble and Tux Paint never stop working. The game content is basically all branded characters.

LitFan 8y ago

This comment is only my own opinion: I believe you're teaching your children to be children instead of teaching them to be people. You're creating an advertisement free bubble for them to live in - once they're living on their own, they'll lack experience dealing with exposure to advertisement. You see benefit in the teaching opportunities in the times your kids are exposed. I'd argue you would have more teaching opportunities if they were exposed more often. The sooner they see it's a part of every day life, the sooner they'll be equipped to handle it on their own. That said, maybe this is hypocritical. I stop my daughter from doing things I know will harm her (using knives, seeing scary things), maybe I'm just not being cautious enough about what I shield her from.

ballenf 8y ago
At some age you are correct, but I don't think 5 or 7 is it. Kid's reasoning skills just aren't developed enough yet at 5 to really understand what advertisers' motives are. Exposure will do little more than desensitize them to ads and instead let their subconscious absorb the message. I'd rather my kids find ads jarring when they are exposed en masse to them rather than be too comfortable around them. There are a lot of things that 5 and 7 year olds shouldn't be exposed to yet, not just ads.
- LitFan 8y ago
  > Exposure will do little more than desensitize them to ads and instead let their subconscious absorb the message. Good point. I guess helpings kids to learn to think objectively in general is the key to helping them think objectively about the things we shield them from when they're young.
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Agree there a lot of things kids don’t need, and the teenage years are a better time to expose them.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  >Exposure will do little more than desensitize them to ads and instead let their subconscious absorb the message. This isn't how it works. If a kid sees ads repeatedly then it initially increases their preference for them, but later lowers that preference again. Overabundance of ads will desensitize kids to them and will make them less interested in them. You shielding your kids from ads will likely make them more affected by ads when they get a glimpse of them here and there. Ads that affect you subconsciously are not the type you see on TV or on a poster. The subconscious effects of ads come from things like your kid repeatedly seeing you using tide pods to wash their clothes.

rotw 8y ago

That sounds like a great environment! It seems like a tricky issue for people without the requisite know-how (and most of all, time), though. I worry that in the future, there might be a measurable decline in attention span and cognitive ability among children from poorer households, whose parents, through demands from long hours, lack of education, and lack of access to premium ad-free services, were unable to provide them with such an environment where they are protected from bombardment from technology. What kind of ready-made, low-information consumer level solutions would you consider important to expand here?

oliwarner 8y ago

I'm perennially confused by the opinions expressed on HN and this is is no exception; the range alone is quite amazing. I am with you. I think advertisers —and the people implementing their work— are a net bad, at all ages. They are actively and openly trying to force influence on people to get them to spend money. Why would you want that for yourself, let alone your kids? "But they'll never learn!" - the hell they wont. You don't need to cut your leg off to know it'll hurt. Talking about this stuff, as you have, is the perfect way to expose them to what's actually going on. The unfettered "Let them learn their own way" nonsense doesn't do it justice. "My kids are fine!" is an anecdote, not an argument. How about one of the dozens of reviews of the impacts of junk food advertising on diet, spurring record rates of childhood obesity? https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx I don't get it. Your right to hold your own opinion is an important thing. Letting people (and now AI) openly influence you is a stupid decision. Letting them do the same to your children is much worse. And what I originally came here to say was that I applaud you getting your kids on real computers. The education system —in general— has given up on educating computing because "kids know how to use everything". 20 years ago, we were taught how to use office productivity apps (eg MS Office), mostly worked into other lessons as part of the (eg) data collection (eg Bio, Geography). Ask today's school leavers to make you a pivot table. Edit: The only place I might deviate from you is internet access. I've got a few years before self-learning is a thing for my children, but when they're ready, I'll be more than happy to give them access to Wikipedia and other sanitised (read: ad free, "people aren't the product") learning resources.

redbeard0x0a 8y ago
I've been paying for Youtube Premium (was "Youtube Red") for a while. While there are product placements and sponsorships in videos, not having to watch ads placed in the middle of videos is awesome. It makes YT a million times better, it isn't something you realize fully until you start watching a video on somebody else's phone/laptop/etc.
Mirioron 8y ago
>I think advertisers —and the people implementing their work— are a net bad, at all ages. They are actively and openly trying to force influence on people to get them to spend money. Why would you want that for yourself, let alone your kids? Because you want to learn about new products in some way, don't you? You also want companies to create new products, don't you? Advertisement is a necessary part in both of these. Few things spread fast enough with word of mouth alone. >"My kids are fine!" is an anecdote, not an argument. How about one of the dozens of reviews of the impacts of junk food advertising on diet, spurring record rates of childhood obesity? https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx https://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx The article does not claim that it's a causal link. They quite clearly say that it's a correlation. The causal link could even be the other way around. >Letting people (and now AI) openly influence you is a stupid decision. Letting them do the same to your children is much worse. How do you propose that you or your kids learn knowledge? That's letting other people influence you. My guess is that your kids will pick up these "negative influences" anyway, but they will never tell you.

brightball 8y ago

Agreed. My kids are allowed to play WiiU and Nintendo Switch, but anything on an iPad or an iPhone is off limits for exactly that reason. I saw so many scary behaviors appearing that simply do not happen with Nintendo games.

LiterallyDoge 8y ago
Can you elaborate?
- brightball 8y ago
  Getting seriously upset if he couldn't get to the iPad. To the point of tears. He knew his "schedule" of exactly how long he had to wait for new things to be unlocked in the game. Clicked every ad that he could to get bonus things. Saw so many of the ad videos that he wanted to download more "free" games. Eventually he had a few of these going that had timed item releases that if he didn't get to his ipad for every single one of them, it became very upsetting to the point of almost debilitating. None of this stuff had ever happened with any previous games on the Nintendo consoles we have. We never saw anything like it when he'd watch kid shows on Netflix or family movies. We ended up taking the iPad away completely one day when he accidentally did something around the house that really hurt his mom...and his only concern was when he could get back on the games. At that point...we were done. iPad/iPhone games have been entirely gone ever since and after a couple of days when I explained to him what those games were doing to him, he seemed to get it and doesn't even want to play them anymore. He plays Wii with his sister or friends, watches TV or movies periodically but it's all at a level I would call healthly. There's no addictive behavior to it and if he can't play, he just can't play. It's not a big deal and he finds something else to do. He doesn't choose anything else over family or time with friends. But every one of those iDevice games seem engineered to get that type of behavior. I'm now extremely wary of any "free" games that are out there, which has been difficult because I've been keeping him away from Fortnite all summer. A lot of the parent stories that I've heard / read from it have made me feel a lot better about the decision though. At this point, "free" video games connected to the internet are a hard pass at my house.

nine_k 8y ago

Pretty drastic, I'd say. My 10 y.o. has a tablet, with internet access, and even Youtube enabled. But: * Youtube is paid (no ads); * All apps are either free without ads, or paid and thus without ads. * No network-played games, no addictive (bejeweled-style) games. I curate the apps that get installed. * There's a Linux PC with a browser (ad-blocked), and a bunch of drawing and educational programs; it also serves as a "TV" for stuff stored on local NAS. She started to draw using a desktop computer when she was 5.5; by now, she can read and type in two languages, and nobody systematically taught her typing. This opens up a lot of great educational content, and filters out most of the silly or addictive content.

novaleaf 8y ago

I'm pretty near your situation (8 and 6yr olds), and do some things similar to you. Tip: if you want to remove ads/filter internet, it's easy to do on android: install a VPN firewall app and block everything. no more ads. A criticism however: I think you are letting your nostalgia for the games of your youth impact your decision making here. What makes 80's/90's games inherently better than the modern options of today? I would actually postulate that they are all equally bad for youths. If you work hard enough, you can find enough edutainment options for kids to satisfy their "screen time" entertainment needs, though I admit it is a lot of work curating content.

blackhaz 8y ago

My son (9 years old) is turning into a Fortnite addict. I'm blaming myself for allowing online games. I've built him a PC so he could learn how to program. Sometimes we experiment with Unity together, sometimes we spend time in Python. But lately Fortnite is grabbing him more and more, and he spends all his allowed time (1.5 hours per day) there, so there's no time left for exploring other things. He can't control himself. He spends his savings on virtual items, significant amounts. He just blew $40 worth of his savings on virtual stuff. I Googled for "fortnite addiction" and was shocked how many similar stories there are. It is an epidemy. Game shops are exploiting advanced psychological tactics to turn young generation into addicts. I am thinking more and more that this should be regulated. There should be a set of rules that a game shouldn't break. For example, prohibiting sales of items, or putting a cap on that. No gambling. A user should be able to pause a game without being punished. And so on... Isn't there a way at all? I understand this is stepping on personal liberties, but it hurts to know dudes in Epic Games are stuffing their wallets while young kids are breaking their banks to buy virtual pistols and don't have ways to exit that world without taking a hit. Especially since playgrounds are empty and streets are not playgrounds anymore. I blame myself.

lsmarigo 8y ago
> I blame myself. This is a narrative the game industry has been successfully pushing through organized PR campaigns and astroturfing online discussions, of course parents share some responsibility but this angle is disingenuous and lets publishers off the hook too easily. I wouldn't beat yourself up too much here you're aware of the situation and actively involved in fixing it. > Game shops are exploiting advanced psychological tactics to turn young generation into addicts. This + the instantly available secondary market which allows you to gamble with your digital goods/currency is the major difference between this and it's predecessor: baseball/pokemon/magic the gathering card packs. Belgium/EU are making strong moves on this but very doubtful we'll see any movement in the US anytime soon, a New Hampshire senator dared to question the situation and was blasted by an aggressive letter from the ESRB claiming loot boxes are not at all gambling. The games industry is uniquely positioned to allow for this kind of abuse because the primary targets (marks) are unorganized young children that don't know any better. Most games are just a vessel for the 'marketplace' which is an online casino for kids. The current state of gaming is shocking, regulation is desperately needed.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

alistproducer2 8y ago

Your strategy pretty much mirrors mine exactly. with a few exceptions. The grandparents got my son a Leap Pad, which we let him play a couple hours on weekends and they play iPad games when they're over the grandparent's when they visit once a week. I've noticed the same things as you when my kids watch ads at the grandparent's. Their reactions show advertising to children for exactly what it is - taking advantage of young minds that cannot defend themselves. We have a smart TV that has it's network access controlled by my router that limits their screen time. My daughter has a clam shell phone to call us in case of emergency but neither child will never have a smart phone as long as they're in my house. I've plainly told the wife's family do not buy my kids any more technology without asking us first because it will end up in the garbage. I don't accept the opinion that these technologies are benign, especially from people like my wife's family who have never actually given the subject any serious or considered thought.

tmaly 8y ago

I allow access to a very limited set of educational apps for a limited duration, less than 20 minutes for my 5 year old daughter. The apps I choose are usually paid apps that do not have ads in them. The only other technology I allow is a one on one session programming games in Scratch 3.

xvector 8y ago

No internet access at 7 years old? That's pretty brutal. The internet was a central part of my childhood, I can't imagine myself without it.

bpizzi 8y ago
How old are you? What were you doing at 7 on the internet? What do you think a 7yo would do today on current's web?

Mirioron 8y ago

What if exposing them to ads when they are young builds up a tolerance towards ads? I definitely saw ads ever since I was young, but I pay no attention to ads nowadays. Often I don't even realize ads are there, because I seem to filter them out. On another note, by age 7 you would expect them to be able to launch Age of Empires on their own though.