8 ms·

I skydive and BASE; from my (limited) experience, the disciplines have a risk of 'built in' complacency. Take skydiving, for example. As a beginner, you're kee

by kweks 8y ago

I skydive and BASE; from my (limited) experience, the disciplines have a risk of 'built in' complacency. Take skydiving, for example. As a beginner, you're keenly aware that every time you toss yourself out of a plane, you're committing suicide, and every time, the parachute saves your life. Quite quickly, it can be easy to equate "wearing a parachute" to "nothing will go wrong". A skydive rig is an incredible feat of engineering. Each fold and stitch has a history, a reason and a purpose. It's a thing of beauty. However, in a skydive rig, half the system is a black box: You're not allowed to touch or handle the reserve part. This can foster a complacency, or a shift of responsibility: It doesn't matter if my pack was terrible, I've got my reserve.. Checklists do exist: In theory you'll check your AAD (Automatic Activation Device - it basically fires your reserve if you haven't opened by a certain altitude), your pins (reserve and main), your handles (pilot chute / main handle, cut-away handle, reserve handle), straps (leg straps, chest strap), ring system (RSL and three ring system), and then your own gear (helmet, goggles, alti). However, expectation of performance (IE, every time you've worn your chute it's worked, leads to complacency), peer pressure (it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check) - rushing - and the 'laid back' environment of dropzones erode the seriousness of the task and the importance of stringent checking.

WalterBright 8y ago
> it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check Wow. What I'd do after I check my gear, is ask a buddy to check mine and I check his. With a checklist.
- yubiox 8y ago
  You are going to be the only one of 20 people on the plane doing this, for jump after jump, no matter how experienced you become? I wish there was a way to test this. I don't believe you. In reality, most new jumpers will ask for a gear check for the first few jumps after finishing the training and then stop. There really isn't a need for a checklist, it isn't hard to remember what to check. The problem is that people are either too lazy, too embarrassed, too complacent, or just too stupid to do the checks (and practice emergency procedures). Recently, at 10,000 feet up (on the way to 13,000) I asked a 15 jump beginner in a friendly way if she was going to check her handles and practice emergency procedures. She answered that she already did. I sat behind her and watched all the way up, and she had not done these things in the plane which is common safety procedure. I then said, no, I mean in the plane. She ignored me and then went on to jump without checking anything. This is actually pretty common. People don't like to be told what to do.
  - mfukar 8y ago
    > You are going to be the only one of 20 people on the plane doing this, for jump after jump, no matter how experienced you become? If they want to be safe they will. If they have a death wish, I'm not getting on a plane with them. I'm more than happy I've never encountered this sort of behaviour.
  - david-gpu 8y ago
    Asking from complete ignorance, is it possible that skydiving occasionally attracts folks who secretly have a death wish?
    - agurk 8y ago
      I have a close friend who's a psychiatrist who's dealt a lot with suicidal people. He has described that there is a whole group of people who want to die, but do not want to kill themselves. They often aren't (fully) aware of this nature of themselves. These people often are very attracted to risky behaviour, and are seen pushing boundaries in extreme sports - skydiving, motorcycling, etc. But, of course, that doesn't mean that everyone - or even a large number - in these sports are like this.
    - kweks 8y ago
      It's relatively difficult to commit suicide via skydive (at least at the start.. there have been specific cases I have heard of where experienced fliers have killed themselves) As a student, all your gear is double checked on the ground and just before exit. Even when you're jumping solo - if you don't open your parachute, your reserve will automatically deploy (there's a little computer that will fire the reserve if you're not open by a certain altitude) Once you're a licenced jumper and have shaken off the 'student' label (meaning noone insists for a gear-check) - you could choose not to enable your AAD (automatic altitude deployer) and kill yourself. To get to that stage, you've probably invested $3000+ and a lot of time. Not the most efficient way to suicide.
      - FabHK 8y ago
        Not unheard of though. German politician Jürgen Möllemann, after running into lots of political difficulties and resigning, died parachuting in 2003. It's unclear whether it was an accident or suicide. (He opened the main chute, cut it off, and did not open the reserve. The AAD was not switched on. EDIT to add: When the other jumpers did a gear check, he went to "get a glas of water".) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Möllemann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Möllemann
EliRivers 8y ago
I've only ever jumped in the UK and Spain, but every dropzone I jumped at in the UK required everyone to have a gearcheck from a suitably experienced and qualified skydiver before boarding, and a signature against your name on the manifest confirming it had been done. I do know that the US had a reputation for being significantly more... trusting of everyone to sort out their own arrangements. I do know that in fifty-odd jumps, I checked my gear and had someone else do a check for me once I was wearing it, every time. Good habits learned early stick.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  So, it's like when you have a second pair of eyes checking your code to make sure there's no bugs. That really helps, in software development, doesn't it?
mfukar 8y ago
> it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check Yeah, that mentality will get someone killed. Literally one of the first 3 things to do in any dropzone I've been in is a gear check, and I don't jump without it (duh?). I think it's an extremely reckless thing to suggest.
- kweks 8y ago
  I am not at all condoning a behaviour, simply transmitting an observation.
  - mfukar 8y ago
    Yeah, of course. Wish I could say the same for other comments.
Loic 8y ago
Interesting, I am in paragliding and the rule is that the reserve is open, inspected, packed again at least once a year by/with the person flying with the gear. This has also to be done if for any reason the gear went wet or more than superficial dirt.
- kweks 8y ago
  Skydiving reserves must be inspected and repacked every 6 - 12 months depending on the country. This pack must be done by a licenced rigger.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dotancohen 8y ago
> it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check I'm not an experienced skydiver (only dove twice) but from what I've seen gear checks are common. Might this be regional?
- thecatspaw 8y ago
  in my experience with (actual) diving the experienced divers still do a thorough check.
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    One would assume that divers who don't do a thorough check every time stand less chance of eventually becoming an experienced diver.
    - FabHK 8y ago
      As the saying goes in aviation: "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."
mehmeta 8y ago
I agree that the sport is rife with complacency however: >it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check is not completely accurate. The reason why inside the plane gear checks are not done often anymore except on students is mostly because of the changes in skydiving gear. Typically the only inside the plane things you can't check yourself and need to ask for someone else are the main and reserve parachute pins. These pins keep the container locked, and it's very important that they are not dislodged since they prevent premature parachute openings which can be disastrous. Older rigs had exposed pilot chute bridles, huge pin flaps, and larger canopies/dbags that all made it easier for the pin to wiggle. So it was standard procedure to check the pins 3 times: after packing, before putting on and inside the plane. However jumpers downsize canopies soon as they gain the necessary experience these days, and the modern skydiving container comes free-fly ready with no bridle exposed, pilot chute handle tucked tight, all of which make it harder for the pin to dislodge. This makes most experienced jumpers comfortable checking the pins only in the first 2 steps, packing and before putting the rig on. The risk associated with having someone else mess with the flaps and the pins inside the plane is deemed greater than the risk of pins dislodging between the time they put on the rig and opening the parachute. Students however do not have the experience to evaluate a properly positioned pin, so having an inside the plane pin/gear check is required.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> Take skydiving, for example. As a beginner, you're keenly aware that every time you toss yourself out of a plane, you're committing suicide, and every time, the parachute saves your life. To be honest, for me, as someone who's neve skydived and never will, it sounds like the mistake is to "toss yourself out of a plane" in the first place. I can imagine myself preparing to jump and feeling every muscle fibre in my body saying "no, you idiot". Sometimes you should just listen to your base, animal urges- they know what's best. When it comes to knowing what it feels like to hit the ground at anything more than a couple of km/h, your body has a much better imagination than your brain.

by kweks 8y ago

WalterBright 8y ago

> it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check Wow. What I'd do after I check my gear, is ask a buddy to check mine and I check his. With a checklist.

yubiox 8y ago
You are going to be the only one of 20 people on the plane doing this, for jump after jump, no matter how experienced you become? I wish there was a way to test this. I don't believe you. In reality, most new jumpers will ask for a gear check for the first few jumps after finishing the training and then stop. There really isn't a need for a checklist, it isn't hard to remember what to check. The problem is that people are either too lazy, too embarrassed, too complacent, or just too stupid to do the checks (and practice emergency procedures). Recently, at 10,000 feet up (on the way to 13,000) I asked a 15 jump beginner in a friendly way if she was going to check her handles and practice emergency procedures. She answered that she already did. I sat behind her and watched all the way up, and she had not done these things in the plane which is common safety procedure. I then said, no, I mean in the plane. She ignored me and then went on to jump without checking anything. This is actually pretty common. People don't like to be told what to do.
- mfukar 8y ago
  > You are going to be the only one of 20 people on the plane doing this, for jump after jump, no matter how experienced you become? If they want to be safe they will. If they have a death wish, I'm not getting on a plane with them. I'm more than happy I've never encountered this sort of behaviour.
- david-gpu 8y ago
  Asking from complete ignorance, is it possible that skydiving occasionally attracts folks who secretly have a death wish?
  - agurk 8y ago
    I have a close friend who's a psychiatrist who's dealt a lot with suicidal people. He has described that there is a whole group of people who want to die, but do not want to kill themselves. They often aren't (fully) aware of this nature of themselves. These people often are very attracted to risky behaviour, and are seen pushing boundaries in extreme sports - skydiving, motorcycling, etc. But, of course, that doesn't mean that everyone - or even a large number - in these sports are like this.
  - kweks 8y ago
    It's relatively difficult to commit suicide via skydive (at least at the start.. there have been specific cases I have heard of where experienced fliers have killed themselves) As a student, all your gear is double checked on the ground and just before exit. Even when you're jumping solo - if you don't open your parachute, your reserve will automatically deploy (there's a little computer that will fire the reserve if you're not open by a certain altitude) Once you're a licenced jumper and have shaken off the 'student' label (meaning noone insists for a gear-check) - you could choose not to enable your AAD (automatic altitude deployer) and kill yourself. To get to that stage, you've probably invested $3000+ and a lot of time. Not the most efficient way to suicide.
    - FabHK 8y ago
      Not unheard of though. German politician Jürgen Möllemann, after running into lots of political difficulties and resigning, died parachuting in 2003. It's unclear whether it was an accident or suicide. (He opened the main chute, cut it off, and did not open the reserve. The AAD was not switched on. EDIT to add: When the other jumpers did a gear check, he went to "get a glas of water".) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Möllemann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Möllemann

EliRivers 8y ago

I've only ever jumped in the UK and Spain, but every dropzone I jumped at in the UK required everyone to have a gearcheck from a suitably experienced and qualified skydiver before boarding, and a signature against your name on the manifest confirming it had been done. I do know that the US had a reputation for being significantly more... trusting of everyone to sort out their own arrangements. I do know that in fifty-odd jumps, I checked my gear and had someone else do a check for me once I was wearing it, every time. Good habits learned early stick.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
So, it's like when you have a second pair of eyes checking your code to make sure there's no bugs. That really helps, in software development, doesn't it?

mfukar 8y ago

> it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check Yeah, that mentality will get someone killed. Literally one of the first 3 things to do in any dropzone I've been in is a gear check, and I don't jump without it (duh?). I think it's an extremely reckless thing to suggest.

kweks 8y ago
I am not at all condoning a behaviour, simply transmitting an observation.
- mfukar 8y ago
  Yeah, of course. Wish I could say the same for other comments.

Loic 8y ago

Interesting, I am in paragliding and the rule is that the reserve is open, inspected, packed again at least once a year by/with the person flying with the gear. This has also to be done if for any reason the gear went wet or more than superficial dirt.

kweks 8y ago
Skydiving reserves must be inspected and repacked every 6 - 12 months depending on the country. This pack must be done by a licenced rigger.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dotancohen 8y ago

> it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check I'm not an experienced skydiver (only dove twice) but from what I've seen gear checks are common. Might this be regional?

thecatspaw 8y ago
in my experience with (actual) diving the experienced divers still do a thorough check.
- zimpenfish 8y ago
  One would assume that divers who don't do a thorough check every time stand less chance of eventually becoming an experienced diver.
  - FabHK 8y ago
    As the saying goes in aviation: "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."

mehmeta 8y ago

I agree that the sport is rife with complacency however: >it's totally 'not cool' for experienced jumpers to ask for a gear check is not completely accurate. The reason why inside the plane gear checks are not done often anymore except on students is mostly because of the changes in skydiving gear. Typically the only inside the plane things you can't check yourself and need to ask for someone else are the main and reserve parachute pins. These pins keep the container locked, and it's very important that they are not dislodged since they prevent premature parachute openings which can be disastrous. Older rigs had exposed pilot chute bridles, huge pin flaps, and larger canopies/dbags that all made it easier for the pin to wiggle. So it was standard procedure to check the pins 3 times: after packing, before putting on and inside the plane. However jumpers downsize canopies soon as they gain the necessary experience these days, and the modern skydiving container comes free-fly ready with no bridle exposed, pilot chute handle tucked tight, all of which make it harder for the pin to dislodge. This makes most experienced jumpers comfortable checking the pins only in the first 2 steps, packing and before putting the rig on. The risk associated with having someone else mess with the flaps and the pins inside the plane is deemed greater than the risk of pins dislodging between the time they put on the rig and opening the parachute. Students however do not have the experience to evaluate a properly positioned pin, so having an inside the plane pin/gear check is required.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

>> Take skydiving, for example. As a beginner, you're keenly aware that every time you toss yourself out of a plane, you're committing suicide, and every time, the parachute saves your life. To be honest, for me, as someone who's neve skydived and never will, it sounds like the mistake is to "toss yourself out of a plane" in the first place. I can imagine myself preparing to jump and feeling every muscle fibre in my body saying "no, you idiot". Sometimes you should just listen to your base, animal urges- they know what's best. When it comes to knowing what it feels like to hit the ground at anything more than a couple of km/h, your body has a much better imagination than your brain.