6 ms·

A refrain that is very true in NYC. It is a bit off-putting (and just wrong) to read the author talk about white male privilege being a comparable head start t

A refrain that is very true in NYC. It is a bit off-putting (and just wrong) to read the author talk about white male privilege being a comparable head start to her half a million dollars of family money she’s received. (And 28,000/yr still coming!) For an essay centered on owning up to personal privilege it still has some serious short comings in recognizing how extreme her wealth privilege is versus almost all intrinsic characteristic in society privileges.

crooked-v 8y ago
Consider that even well-known black movie stars occasionally get the "shopping while black" treatment. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/19/forest-whitaker-falsely-accused-shoplifting-frisked-new-york-deli_n_2719712.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/19/forest-whitaker-fa... Having even absurd amounts of money doesn't make bias just go away.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  And yet I bet that 95%+ of American white males would easily, easily, easily make the trade between 'shopping while black' and $28,000/year. I actually wonder if you took the poorest 50% of white males and asked them what poor treatment they would suffer for $28,000/year tax-free - how much would they willing endure? I dare to say quite a lot. >Having even absurd amounts of money doesn't make bias just go away. And having white skin and a penis doesn't make inequality go away either.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    Intersectionality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality) is an interesting subject. Privilege has many axes and can vary with circumstances; it's dangerous to reduce to a one-dimensional less-than/greater-than scale. A black woman from a wealthy family may have more privilege and more opportunities than a white man from a dirt-poor family, and that must be taken into consideration if we want to make a better world. But at the same time, it remains true that the average black woman has less privilege (in most circumstances) than the average white man.
    - njarboe 8y ago
      It almost like one should judge people individually and not by the groups they are a part of. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
      - robotrout 8y ago
        It is politically useful to pick at partially healed wounds to make them bleed again, rather than allow them to heal completely. I hope that MLK would have fought against the current trend of re-opening those wounds and undoing any healing that had already begun.
        forapurpose 8y ago
        > I hope that MLK would have ... I once said similar things. Then I learned that MLK was told similar things then - he was constantly told that he was creating trouble by inflaming things. I strongly encourage you to read his "Letter From a Birmingham Jail" to see not only that the same things have always been said, but his response - it transformed my understanding of these issues. > partially healed wounds ... > re-opening those wounds and undoing any healing that had already begun. I think we should question the assumptions that the wounds were as healed as perhaps is widely thought by people who aren't in minorities. What makes you say they are healed to the extent you think? When I ask people who have those experiences personally and directly, they almost always have a starkly different view of the amount of 'healing'. Part of MLK's response is that, unless compelled to address it, people don't take them seriously and they linger. Racism has lingered in the U.S. for centuries. IME, people who aren't directly affected by problems tend to project their experiences onto them - they unconsciously infer that 'I don't see bad things' means 'it's not bad'. Finally, a bit of a tangent: MLK is often adopted by white Americans because his message, misunderstood, makes them feel comfortable. MLK was very much about making people uncomfortable, and he believed (again, see the Letter) that that was the only way to foster change. (And IIRC, even after the Voting Rights Act, surveys showed that MLK had more people in the U.S. who thought negatively about him than positively.)
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    It's true that other people have problems, but that doesn't reduce the amount of discrimination against African-Americans and other minorities, or help the problem. An assumption behind the parent's "bet" (no evidence is given) is that discrimination against African-Americans isn't especially problematic. I think that needs to be supported against the mountains of evidence that say otherwise; IMHO, it is like claims of climate change denial - it's easy to make the claims, but the evidence is overwhelmingly otherwise. A sad fact of HN is that there are no voices of African-Americans, or at least very few and they don't share their experiences (not that I blame them; it's a hostile place). Other people with no experience like to share their opinions, but that is as valuable as me talking about what it's like to work at Microsoft - I've never worked there so my opinion isn't worth a lot. The lack of people experienced in this subject is both an outcome of generations of discrimination - African-American families often lack the wealth, income, and educational history associated with higher education and SV jobs - and a cause of it: We don't understand the problems. We're just BSing in the dark.
    - seatdrummer 8y ago
      You think that HN is a hostile place?
      - forapurpose 8y ago
        I think it is to African-Americans, women, and other minorities. For example, broad stereotypes and criticisms are made, and frequently comments that say, for example, that racism is a problem, is voted down (my GP comment was voted down to -2, for example) and commonly harshly criticized. When those issues come up, most comments criticize any differing perspective before they are expressed. On the surface, there is very little interest in listening to other points of view - though I suspect that is the intent of the inflammatory commenters, to shut down discussion.
        seatdrummer 8y ago
        I think if you did a survey on HN users you would see that most of them think that racism is in fact a problem - that it is not good. Also, I think its important to consider your comments holistically when seeing how they are received by the community. Of course you believe you comment communicates one thing, but in addition to that you have tone, other claims, and defenses. Any of which can result in a downvote.
  - felix_nagaand 8y ago
    You do not seem to be aware of just how bad poverty and inequality has gotten for everyone. https://www.prb.org/us-inequality-poverty/ https://www.prb.org/us-inequality-poverty/ Yes, black Americans do have worse outcomes than white Americans. https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.com/.amp/economics/four-figures-that-explain-racial-inequality-in-america https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.com/.amp/economics/four-f... However, we should not be splitting hairs over who has it worse or bickering about how to make poor dumb white families pay for the injustices of systemic racism that they had no hand in creating or maintaining. There are a lot of poor people in America and they all deserve our help. If we continue to pick and choose who we help based on what minority sub-group makes the most noise we will only accomplish division. If the top 1% can increase their wealth by 20%in a year then we can also improve schools, health care, and access to affordable financing for all poor people. Instead we get divisive platitudes that alienate poor whites and never actually help poor blacks. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/concentration-poverty-american-schools/471414/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/concen... We should start by funding public schools equally by head count instead of from property taxes. https://www.thenation.com/article/how-unequal-school-funding-punishes-poor-kids/ https://www.thenation.com/article/how-unequal-school-funding... Then we should probably end the inane war on drugs, fix healthcare, free the slaves filling prisons that do not pose a danger to society, overturn CU, and build some affordable damn houses.
- sol_remmy 8y ago
  or men of any race who get the "walking behind a nervous women while male" treatment when walking around their city at night
  - malyk 8y ago
    Do you think that's unjustified from them? I, as a fairly non-descript white guy, am always worried when out walking near a single female that she might be afraid of me and what I might do and take steps to help alleviate that (walk slower, etc.). I mean, it seems like the most reasonable course of action. Sure, I'm never going to confront/assault/rape anyone, but the 5'2", 110 lbs woman walking in front of me on the street? She has no clue. How hard is it for me to slow down half a step and give her some relief?
    - felix_nagaand 8y ago
      That actually makes the whole situation far creepier. You go from an unwanted person along her path to literally stalking her until your paths part. stalk gerund or present participle: stalking: pursue or approach stealthily. synonyms:creep up on, trail, follow, shadow, track down, go after, be after, course, hunt;More
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > How hard is it for me to slow down half a step and give her some relief? Why would dropping back give relief? Seems to me, moving to the side as far as the sidewalk, etc., permits then accelerating to pass so you aren't behind is the better course of action.
      - malyk 8y ago
        Yeah. It's all situation dependent. If you slow, then she'll keep increasing the distance between you. I try to pass if reasonable. Especially if we hit a light or something, even crossing on red if no cars. Really anything that feels reasonable to show I'm not interested in them at all. Hard to give all angles in a comment. I guess my point is that I feel like you are doing something wrong if you /aren't/ considering how those around you are interpreting your actions. It's like the people at the grocery store who blindly stop their carts in the middle of the aisle and walk away to browse...seriously? You didn't consider how your actions impacted anyone else at all?
- Inconel 8y ago
  Having absurd amounts of money certainly doesn't make bias go away, but it definitely makes such bias more bearable. I've been subject to numerous indignities due to "shopping while black", I've also gone hungry and had to resort to sleeping under overpasses, the two are incomparable. $28k a year in free money was an almost unimaginable sum to myself and many of my friends, most black but some white, when growing up. It's my general experience that people at this level of privilege don't have the ability to truly understand how privilege, or the lack thereof, impacts the entirety of your existence, and should refrain from castigating others for their perceived privileges, it's splitting hairs at this point.
  - roymurdock 8y ago
    If/when you have kids, assuming the economy looks roughly the same when they graduate college, would you consider providing them a similar $28k/year stipend if they decided to pursue their goal in the arts/a non-lucrative career? Maybe non-monetary support such as having a place to live with you at home? Or would you want them to learn lessons the hard way?
    - Inconel 8y ago
      This is getting very hypothetical here, but I'll be glad to indulge your question. I'm unsure at this stage in my life whether I'll ever have the opportunity to have children of my own, but I would certainly like to. As I've spent some time in the foster care system, and seeing as it ended rather disastrously with me spending a good chunk of my HS years homeless, I'd very much like to get involved in being a foster parent. I'd certainly like to give my child, whether biological or adopted, many of the things that I didn't have growing up. First and foremost would be love, and safety, and the educational opportunities I didn't have. Travel would be the first of things I may categorize as "luxuries" that I'd like to gift. As to a specific number, my gut feeling tells me $28K seems rather excessive. That's more money annually than I and most of my friends made in total yearly wages for a good chunk of our adult lives, and we all worked rather dutifully. I'm not entirely convinced that the creation of art requires such sums. And $28k could certainly help a lot of other children in need. In any case, I'd like to think one of the most satisfying aspects of parenting is watching a child transform into an adult, I'm unsure whether a perpetual yearly stipend equal to the wages of large segments of this country is the best method to achieve that goal. But assuming my child was the recipient of such privilege, I'd hope I would have taught them the humility to understand just how privileged they were, and in general refrain from criticism based on generalities.
- dubya23 8y ago
  Why is this comment even necessary? The number of dirt poor rural whites in the US is staggering. Would you be comfortable telling such a person that they have immense privilege because of their white skin? They'll probably slap you silly.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18321672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18321672
rjkennedy98 8y ago
What about the part bashing her ex-boyfriend when she's married to a women!
- nindalf 8y ago
  It is possible for a person to be bisexual.
  - tashoecraft 8y ago
    I thought the line (as men in New York are known to do) as being the offputting one. It’s not needed and completely biased.
    - Kaveren 8y ago
      > "When my boyfriend suddenly left me (as men in New York are occasionally known to do), I had to pay $1,450 a month for rent on my own" The author doesn't disparage the ex-boyfriend, just makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about it. I don't find it biased or off-putting.
ImprovedSilence 8y ago
(bless her heart)

crooked-v 8y ago

Consider that even well-known black movie stars occasionally get the "shopping while black" treatment. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/19/forest-whitaker-falsely-accused-shoplifting-frisked-new-york-deli_n_2719712.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/19/forest-whitaker-fa... Having even absurd amounts of money doesn't make bias just go away.

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
And yet I bet that 95%+ of American white males would easily, easily, easily make the trade between 'shopping while black' and $28,000/year. I actually wonder if you took the poorest 50% of white males and asked them what poor treatment they would suffer for $28,000/year tax-free - how much would they willing endure? I dare to say quite a lot. >Having even absurd amounts of money doesn't make bias just go away. And having white skin and a penis doesn't make inequality go away either.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  Intersectionality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality) is an interesting subject. Privilege has many axes and can vary with circumstances; it's dangerous to reduce to a one-dimensional less-than/greater-than scale. A black woman from a wealthy family may have more privilege and more opportunities than a white man from a dirt-poor family, and that must be taken into consideration if we want to make a better world. But at the same time, it remains true that the average black woman has less privilege (in most circumstances) than the average white man.
  - njarboe 8y ago
    It almost like one should judge people individually and not by the groups they are a part of. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
    - robotrout 8y ago
      It is politically useful to pick at partially healed wounds to make them bleed again, rather than allow them to heal completely. I hope that MLK would have fought against the current trend of re-opening those wounds and undoing any healing that had already begun.
      - forapurpose 8y ago
        > I hope that MLK would have ... I once said similar things. Then I learned that MLK was told similar things then - he was constantly told that he was creating trouble by inflaming things. I strongly encourage you to read his "Letter From a Birmingham Jail" to see not only that the same things have always been said, but his response - it transformed my understanding of these issues. > partially healed wounds ... > re-opening those wounds and undoing any healing that had already begun. I think we should question the assumptions that the wounds were as healed as perhaps is widely thought by people who aren't in minorities. What makes you say they are healed to the extent you think? When I ask people who have those experiences personally and directly, they almost always have a starkly different view of the amount of 'healing'. Part of MLK's response is that, unless compelled to address it, people don't take them seriously and they linger. Racism has lingered in the U.S. for centuries. IME, people who aren't directly affected by problems tend to project their experiences onto them - they unconsciously infer that 'I don't see bad things' means 'it's not bad'. Finally, a bit of a tangent: MLK is often adopted by white Americans because his message, misunderstood, makes them feel comfortable. MLK was very much about making people uncomfortable, and he believed (again, see the Letter) that that was the only way to foster change. (And IIRC, even after the Voting Rights Act, surveys showed that MLK had more people in the U.S. who thought negatively about him than positively.)
- forapurpose 8y ago
  It's true that other people have problems, but that doesn't reduce the amount of discrimination against African-Americans and other minorities, or help the problem. An assumption behind the parent's "bet" (no evidence is given) is that discrimination against African-Americans isn't especially problematic. I think that needs to be supported against the mountains of evidence that say otherwise; IMHO, it is like claims of climate change denial - it's easy to make the claims, but the evidence is overwhelmingly otherwise. A sad fact of HN is that there are no voices of African-Americans, or at least very few and they don't share their experiences (not that I blame them; it's a hostile place). Other people with no experience like to share their opinions, but that is as valuable as me talking about what it's like to work at Microsoft - I've never worked there so my opinion isn't worth a lot. The lack of people experienced in this subject is both an outcome of generations of discrimination - African-American families often lack the wealth, income, and educational history associated with higher education and SV jobs - and a cause of it: We don't understand the problems. We're just BSing in the dark.
  - seatdrummer 8y ago
    You think that HN is a hostile place?
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      I think it is to African-Americans, women, and other minorities. For example, broad stereotypes and criticisms are made, and frequently comments that say, for example, that racism is a problem, is voted down (my GP comment was voted down to -2, for example) and commonly harshly criticized. When those issues come up, most comments criticize any differing perspective before they are expressed. On the surface, there is very little interest in listening to other points of view - though I suspect that is the intent of the inflammatory commenters, to shut down discussion.
      - seatdrummer 8y ago
        I think if you did a survey on HN users you would see that most of them think that racism is in fact a problem - that it is not good. Also, I think its important to consider your comments holistically when seeing how they are received by the community. Of course you believe you comment communicates one thing, but in addition to that you have tone, other claims, and defenses. Any of which can result in a downvote.
- felix_nagaand 8y ago
  You do not seem to be aware of just how bad poverty and inequality has gotten for everyone. https://www.prb.org/us-inequality-poverty/ https://www.prb.org/us-inequality-poverty/ Yes, black Americans do have worse outcomes than white Americans. https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.com/.amp/economics/four-figures-that-explain-racial-inequality-in-america https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.com/.amp/economics/four-f... However, we should not be splitting hairs over who has it worse or bickering about how to make poor dumb white families pay for the injustices of systemic racism that they had no hand in creating or maintaining. There are a lot of poor people in America and they all deserve our help. If we continue to pick and choose who we help based on what minority sub-group makes the most noise we will only accomplish division. If the top 1% can increase their wealth by 20%in a year then we can also improve schools, health care, and access to affordable financing for all poor people. Instead we get divisive platitudes that alienate poor whites and never actually help poor blacks. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/concentration-poverty-american-schools/471414/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/concen... We should start by funding public schools equally by head count instead of from property taxes. https://www.thenation.com/article/how-unequal-school-funding-punishes-poor-kids/ https://www.thenation.com/article/how-unequal-school-funding... Then we should probably end the inane war on drugs, fix healthcare, free the slaves filling prisons that do not pose a danger to society, overturn CU, and build some affordable damn houses.
sol_remmy 8y ago
or men of any race who get the "walking behind a nervous women while male" treatment when walking around their city at night
- malyk 8y ago
  Do you think that's unjustified from them? I, as a fairly non-descript white guy, am always worried when out walking near a single female that she might be afraid of me and what I might do and take steps to help alleviate that (walk slower, etc.). I mean, it seems like the most reasonable course of action. Sure, I'm never going to confront/assault/rape anyone, but the 5'2", 110 lbs woman walking in front of me on the street? She has no clue. How hard is it for me to slow down half a step and give her some relief?
  - felix_nagaand 8y ago
    That actually makes the whole situation far creepier. You go from an unwanted person along her path to literally stalking her until your paths part. stalk gerund or present participle: stalking: pursue or approach stealthily. synonyms:creep up on, trail, follow, shadow, track down, go after, be after, course, hunt;More
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > How hard is it for me to slow down half a step and give her some relief? Why would dropping back give relief? Seems to me, moving to the side as far as the sidewalk, etc., permits then accelerating to pass so you aren't behind is the better course of action.
    - malyk 8y ago
      Yeah. It's all situation dependent. If you slow, then she'll keep increasing the distance between you. I try to pass if reasonable. Especially if we hit a light or something, even crossing on red if no cars. Really anything that feels reasonable to show I'm not interested in them at all. Hard to give all angles in a comment. I guess my point is that I feel like you are doing something wrong if you /aren't/ considering how those around you are interpreting your actions. It's like the people at the grocery store who blindly stop their carts in the middle of the aisle and walk away to browse...seriously? You didn't consider how your actions impacted anyone else at all?
Inconel 8y ago
Having absurd amounts of money certainly doesn't make bias go away, but it definitely makes such bias more bearable. I've been subject to numerous indignities due to "shopping while black", I've also gone hungry and had to resort to sleeping under overpasses, the two are incomparable. $28k a year in free money was an almost unimaginable sum to myself and many of my friends, most black but some white, when growing up. It's my general experience that people at this level of privilege don't have the ability to truly understand how privilege, or the lack thereof, impacts the entirety of your existence, and should refrain from castigating others for their perceived privileges, it's splitting hairs at this point.
- roymurdock 8y ago
  If/when you have kids, assuming the economy looks roughly the same when they graduate college, would you consider providing them a similar $28k/year stipend if they decided to pursue their goal in the arts/a non-lucrative career? Maybe non-monetary support such as having a place to live with you at home? Or would you want them to learn lessons the hard way?
  - Inconel 8y ago
    This is getting very hypothetical here, but I'll be glad to indulge your question. I'm unsure at this stage in my life whether I'll ever have the opportunity to have children of my own, but I would certainly like to. As I've spent some time in the foster care system, and seeing as it ended rather disastrously with me spending a good chunk of my HS years homeless, I'd very much like to get involved in being a foster parent. I'd certainly like to give my child, whether biological or adopted, many of the things that I didn't have growing up. First and foremost would be love, and safety, and the educational opportunities I didn't have. Travel would be the first of things I may categorize as "luxuries" that I'd like to gift. As to a specific number, my gut feeling tells me $28K seems rather excessive. That's more money annually than I and most of my friends made in total yearly wages for a good chunk of our adult lives, and we all worked rather dutifully. I'm not entirely convinced that the creation of art requires such sums. And $28k could certainly help a lot of other children in need. In any case, I'd like to think one of the most satisfying aspects of parenting is watching a child transform into an adult, I'm unsure whether a perpetual yearly stipend equal to the wages of large segments of this country is the best method to achieve that goal. But assuming my child was the recipient of such privilege, I'd hope I would have taught them the humility to understand just how privileged they were, and in general refrain from criticism based on generalities.
dubya23 8y ago
Why is this comment even necessary? The number of dirt poor rural whites in the US is staggering. Would you be comfortable telling such a person that they have immense privilege because of their white skin? They'll probably slap you silly.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18321672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18321672

rjkennedy98 8y ago

What about the part bashing her ex-boyfriend when she's married to a women!

nindalf 8y ago
It is possible for a person to be bisexual.
- tashoecraft 8y ago
  I thought the line (as men in New York are known to do) as being the offputting one. It’s not needed and completely biased.
  - Kaveren 8y ago
    > "When my boyfriend suddenly left me (as men in New York are occasionally known to do), I had to pay $1,450 a month for rent on my own" The author doesn't disparage the ex-boyfriend, just makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about it. I don't find it biased or off-putting.

ImprovedSilence 8y ago

(bless her heart)