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I read the book and I enjoyed it. It still feels like a recruitment tool for Basecamp in the same way all "self help" books just seem to describe what the autho

I read the book and I enjoyed it. It still feels like a recruitment tool for Basecamp in the same way all "self help" books just seem to describe what the author does well, rather than how to deal own with personal difficulties. If you happen to have a company like theirs (<100 employees, ability to work remotely, profitable), this book will help better align your team's efforts and create a good work environment. If you work at a startup or for IBM, this might do more to depress you...

cknoxrun 8y ago
Basecamp purposefully remains small, so I am not sure if it is a recruitment tool, but it's possible. Basecamp has offered such a refreshing counterweight to the Silicon Valley unicorn mantra. I believe if some companies, such as Evernote, had followed in their path, they could have had a profitable and useful product that would have continued to be loved and used all over the world.
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  It's probably not a recruitment tool, but it does feel like one when you read it. > Basecamp has offered such a refreshing counterweight to the Silicon Valley unicorn mantra. I believe if some companies, such as Evernote, had followed in their path, they could have had a profitable and useful product that would have continued to be loved and used all over the world. You're right here. Silicon Valley is built, these days, on high valuations and eventually-profitable businesses (at least that's how it feels from the outside). Once you leave that bubble, and the tiny bubbles in other cities, you'll note that most tech businesses start with profitability in mind and to remain private.
kbuchanan 8y ago
It's useful to step back and realize that some of the things Basecamp advocates are privileges, not strategies. In other words, they've been blessed with enough success that they can choose the path they're on. OF COURSE there's a feedback loop—remote work helps them be more successful, without a doubt. But, the trade-offs Basecamp makes are not always available to other businesses, and do not offer the same clear upsides to either employees or owners. (Having said this, I'm a big fan of their style and have learned a lot from them...)
- coldtea 8y ago
  >But, the trade-offs Basecamp makes are not always available to other businesses Shouldn't we build an environment where they are? E.g. if a company doesn't use slave or child labor today, or doesn't pay in company scrip, it's not a loss for them, because no company can use those either. Unpaid overtime was similarly outlawed in lots of western countries. Societies should build a legal environment where this is true for most sane things companies should be doing and bad things companies should be avoiding.
- nraynaud 8y ago
  DHH mentioned that it's not all that calm and zen and well oiled at Basecamp, that the book is also aspirational.
- 1123581321 8y ago
  I don’t think this is fair to say because they have been writing like this for nearly 20 years. Getting Real and their blog predate Basecamp.
bachmeier 8y ago
> It still feels like a recruitment tool for Basecamp Not so much when you consider that they aren't hiring anyone right now. Something that surprises me is the number of people that don't believe a company can actually want to remain small.
woolvalley 8y ago
At this point basecamp has a bit of a 'broken clock is right twice a day feel' that drives a content marketing machine for their SMB product. This is a classic one: https://signalvnoise.com/posts/2585-facebook-is-not-worth-33000000000 https://signalvnoise.com/posts/2585-facebook-is-not-worth-33... What basecamp is promoting is totally fine, but at this point you have to recognize that bootstrap / small biz style vs. VC style biz are two different kinds with their own tradeoffs and the emotionalism in the articles are not that necessary. But the emotionalism behind the articles is probably what makes the content stick, as people frustrated with their current work environment get inspired by SvN blog articles to start their own SMB and buy basecamp products to organize their business.
- xkjkls 8y ago
  Damn, that post aged badly. Yeah, I think there needs to be books that are honest about the tradeoffs of running a business different ways, rather than espousing that "this is the way to do things". Ben Horowitz's "The Hard Thing About Hard Things" is the only one I know that really claimed that sometimes things call for relaxed management and sometimes things call for a maniacal death march.
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  It reminds me of Joel on Software where Spolsky claims that web technology and web apps will not replace desktop apps.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    It's funny how Fog Creek Software is similarly based in NYC. Silicon Valley folks, tired of the breakneck VC-bloated striverism of the city, seek the homespun wisdom from a simpler age and small companies.
michaelbuckbee 8y ago
I used to work for a VC funded startup that was full on Silicon Valley (HBO) style nuts. Wacky group living. CEO that thought he was reincarnated Steve Jobs. Just insane amounts of what I can only describe as "thrashing" as people tried to figure out what to work on, etc. I'm now working at an enterprise software company in the marketing group and it's "calm" in the sense that Basecamp uses the term. Everyone's a professional. Everyone just does their job. Team is mostly remote. It's phenomenal how much faster in terms of growth the enterprise job moves. Simply because there aren't any "performative metrics". Nobody cares if you show up early and leave late because the metric we're held to tie back to the business. Because we're making actual money we can do more growth experiments. Because we have proven we can do this, we aren't mired down in bureaucracy (CEO and whoever his advisor was that week approval) and weird turf wars between departments. It's just calm, competent execution 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. The company certainly isn't Basecamp, but the lessons and ethos still work.
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  Who do you work for? I'm done with crazy.
otakucode 8y ago
Management books have never been written for the people who are working at various companies. They're written for managers, usually higher level ones who have the power to actually change things, or those starting new companies. A tremendous amount of damage has been done by the management books written in the 1980s, whose influence lingers to this day. The way companies work certainly won't change for as long as every management book out there starts with "employees actually don't want money, they want recognition" and "you don't work for the customer, you work for your investors" and such things. So it is quite refreshing to see a book that apparently (I've not read it yet) puts forward the idea that if you don't make your company into some endurance game optimized to be as negative an experience as possible for employees, the whole world at least isn't guaranteed to implode.
sailfast 8y ago
I read RE:WORK when I was working for a large consulting firm supporting an even larger government client. While it doesn't do much to solve your current situation, it certainly helps you re-evaluate your basic assumptions about how you would like to work and what is possible in your work. I definitely began thinking about my projects differently. Similarly, with REMOTE, I don't think I would've considered working remotely as a good option for me before reading the book, but here I am doing remote work and loving it. The book is in my "To Read" queue but typically while aspirational I do find them helpful even if it is just to motivate you as a team lead or developer to carve out a calm niche for your team within a larger environment.

cknoxrun 8y ago

Basecamp purposefully remains small, so I am not sure if it is a recruitment tool, but it's possible. Basecamp has offered such a refreshing counterweight to the Silicon Valley unicorn mantra. I believe if some companies, such as Evernote, had followed in their path, they could have had a profitable and useful product that would have continued to be loved and used all over the world.

ppeetteerr 8y ago
It's probably not a recruitment tool, but it does feel like one when you read it. > Basecamp has offered such a refreshing counterweight to the Silicon Valley unicorn mantra. I believe if some companies, such as Evernote, had followed in their path, they could have had a profitable and useful product that would have continued to be loved and used all over the world. You're right here. Silicon Valley is built, these days, on high valuations and eventually-profitable businesses (at least that's how it feels from the outside). Once you leave that bubble, and the tiny bubbles in other cities, you'll note that most tech businesses start with profitability in mind and to remain private.

kbuchanan 8y ago

It's useful to step back and realize that some of the things Basecamp advocates are privileges, not strategies. In other words, they've been blessed with enough success that they can choose the path they're on. OF COURSE there's a feedback loop—remote work helps them be more successful, without a doubt. But, the trade-offs Basecamp makes are not always available to other businesses, and do not offer the same clear upsides to either employees or owners. (Having said this, I'm a big fan of their style and have learned a lot from them...)

coldtea 8y ago
>But, the trade-offs Basecamp makes are not always available to other businesses Shouldn't we build an environment where they are? E.g. if a company doesn't use slave or child labor today, or doesn't pay in company scrip, it's not a loss for them, because no company can use those either. Unpaid overtime was similarly outlawed in lots of western countries. Societies should build a legal environment where this is true for most sane things companies should be doing and bad things companies should be avoiding.
nraynaud 8y ago
DHH mentioned that it's not all that calm and zen and well oiled at Basecamp, that the book is also aspirational.
1123581321 8y ago
I don’t think this is fair to say because they have been writing like this for nearly 20 years. Getting Real and their blog predate Basecamp.

bachmeier 8y ago

> It still feels like a recruitment tool for Basecamp Not so much when you consider that they aren't hiring anyone right now. Something that surprises me is the number of people that don't believe a company can actually want to remain small.

woolvalley 8y ago

At this point basecamp has a bit of a 'broken clock is right twice a day feel' that drives a content marketing machine for their SMB product. This is a classic one: https://signalvnoise.com/posts/2585-facebook-is-not-worth-33000000000 https://signalvnoise.com/posts/2585-facebook-is-not-worth-33... What basecamp is promoting is totally fine, but at this point you have to recognize that bootstrap / small biz style vs. VC style biz are two different kinds with their own tradeoffs and the emotionalism in the articles are not that necessary. But the emotionalism behind the articles is probably what makes the content stick, as people frustrated with their current work environment get inspired by SvN blog articles to start their own SMB and buy basecamp products to organize their business.

xkjkls 8y ago
Damn, that post aged badly. Yeah, I think there needs to be books that are honest about the tradeoffs of running a business different ways, rather than espousing that "this is the way to do things". Ben Horowitz's "The Hard Thing About Hard Things" is the only one I know that really claimed that sometimes things call for relaxed management and sometimes things call for a maniacal death march.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
It reminds me of Joel on Software where Spolsky claims that web technology and web apps will not replace desktop apps.
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  It's funny how Fog Creek Software is similarly based in NYC. Silicon Valley folks, tired of the breakneck VC-bloated striverism of the city, seek the homespun wisdom from a simpler age and small companies.

michaelbuckbee 8y ago

I used to work for a VC funded startup that was full on Silicon Valley (HBO) style nuts. Wacky group living. CEO that thought he was reincarnated Steve Jobs. Just insane amounts of what I can only describe as "thrashing" as people tried to figure out what to work on, etc. I'm now working at an enterprise software company in the marketing group and it's "calm" in the sense that Basecamp uses the term. Everyone's a professional. Everyone just does their job. Team is mostly remote. It's phenomenal how much faster in terms of growth the enterprise job moves. Simply because there aren't any "performative metrics". Nobody cares if you show up early and leave late because the metric we're held to tie back to the business. Because we're making actual money we can do more growth experiments. Because we have proven we can do this, we aren't mired down in bureaucracy (CEO and whoever his advisor was that week approval) and weird turf wars between departments. It's just calm, competent execution 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. The company certainly isn't Basecamp, but the lessons and ethos still work.

ppeetteerr 8y ago
Who do you work for? I'm done with crazy.

otakucode 8y ago

Management books have never been written for the people who are working at various companies. They're written for managers, usually higher level ones who have the power to actually change things, or those starting new companies. A tremendous amount of damage has been done by the management books written in the 1980s, whose influence lingers to this day. The way companies work certainly won't change for as long as every management book out there starts with "employees actually don't want money, they want recognition" and "you don't work for the customer, you work for your investors" and such things. So it is quite refreshing to see a book that apparently (I've not read it yet) puts forward the idea that if you don't make your company into some endurance game optimized to be as negative an experience as possible for employees, the whole world at least isn't guaranteed to implode.

sailfast 8y ago

I read RE:WORK when I was working for a large consulting firm supporting an even larger government client. While it doesn't do much to solve your current situation, it certainly helps you re-evaluate your basic assumptions about how you would like to work and what is possible in your work. I definitely began thinking about my projects differently. Similarly, with REMOTE, I don't think I would've considered working remotely as a good option for me before reading the book, but here I am doing remote work and loving it. The book is in my "To Read" queue but typically while aspirational I do find them helpful even if it is just to motivate you as a team lead or developer to carve out a calm niche for your team within a larger environment.