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The best part is how scrupulously Michelle Davis avoided any uncomfortable mentions of the crimes that brought said punishments. Wells Fargo’s business tactic o

The best part is how scrupulously Michelle Davis avoided any uncomfortable mentions of the crimes that brought said punishments. Wells Fargo’s business tactic of forcing their sales staff to commit fraud and identity theft is instead described as “a pattern of lapses and abuses”.

rayiner 8y ago
> Wells Fargo’s business tactic of forcing their sales staff to commit fraud and identity theft That’s just a dishonest characterization. Wells Fargo didn’t “force” their staff to do any such thing. Staff gamed an incentive structure and WF didn’t catch it. “Lapse” is the most accurate characterization.
- dd36 8y ago
  Coercion combined with ignoring customer complaints is the most accurate characterization.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    No. Words have meaning. Forcing someone to do something means coercion + intent to achieve a specific outcome. There was no evidence that WF intended anyone to commit identity fraud. You don’t get to redefine the meaning of well understood words.
    - dd36 8y ago
      There was a decade of complaints and more than enough to connect the dots. Looking the other way because you like the results goes to intent. Threatening ones job unless they sign up X many customers for a product is coercion. Sales quotas are inherently coercive. If you choose to do zero quality control and employees learn cheating is okay then it is bad.
      - leoc 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - nradov 8y ago
      The branch employees were effectively forced to cheat because that was the only way to meet their sales goals and keep their jobs. The executives knew this, but chose to look the other way.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
cft 8y ago
I had an interesting experience in Wells Fargo around 2012. I had probably 10 business accounts there, including the main receivable account, as well as an account from which about 7 contractors were paid monthly to the tune of $100,000/mo. I was the only signatory to the account, the only person with a login. I had my personal accounts attached there as well. A some point I log in into WF from my regular office laptop (static IP) and instead of the account balances I see a warning: your access has been restricted due to security. Please call an 800 number. I log in from my phone via different IP, same result. My attempts to talk to the assigned business banker went nowhere: she repeated the same number. When I called that number, I got treated like a criminal, I got yelled at and I was told that all accounts needed to be renumbered, and the previous accounts would disappear including the account history. With multiple vendors and contractors, renumbering accounts is true hell. When I asked this person about the alternatives and for a reason for this action I was told that this was done "for my safety", and if I needed the details they could only be obtained via a subpoena. I tell her that according to my knowledge, a subpoena can be obtained only during a civil litigation, and I am asking her if she invites her customer to litigate against the bank? She rudely responds that if I do not want my accounts renumbered, she would leave this as as (with the security warning and no account access). Since this is business critical, I acquiesce and she removes the warning, but the accounts are read-only now. She then tells me that I need to go to a branch, killing my workday. At the branch a salesperson tries to sell me their new accounts and packages (that are of course worse than the original ones). When she realizes I am not an easy target, she just asks me if I am ready for the account renumbering. I ask her if my accountants will have access to the CSV - without this we cannot even make quarterly tax payments. She says sure. I ask her that just in case, I want to download the accounts (all 10 plus 4 personal ones). She says go ahead on your laptop (like I am paranoid, I don't need this). I ask her if they have WiFi in the branch. Not for me. No problem, I tether to my phone (for 2012 it was advanced) and download. Then she hits the button- the accounts are completely gone! Only the end balances got transferred to the new accounts. I leave. Then I call Wells Fargo and ask how I can get the CSV histories. A business Banker tells me that she can fax the hard copies of each monthly statement for $12 per statement per account! When I discuss this later this awful experience with my regular business banker at my branch, I ask her if higher balance accounts get treated the same. She says that my accounts (low 7 digit balance) are too small, but starting from 8 digit, you get a different treatment! I still cannot understand what kind of "safety" a new account number can provide, because every time I write a check I disclose my account number.

rayiner 8y ago

> Wells Fargo’s business tactic of forcing their sales staff to commit fraud and identity theft That’s just a dishonest characterization. Wells Fargo didn’t “force” their staff to do any such thing. Staff gamed an incentive structure and WF didn’t catch it. “Lapse” is the most accurate characterization.

dd36 8y ago
Coercion combined with ignoring customer complaints is the most accurate characterization.
- rayiner 8y ago
  No. Words have meaning. Forcing someone to do something means coercion + intent to achieve a specific outcome. There was no evidence that WF intended anyone to commit identity fraud. You don’t get to redefine the meaning of well understood words.
  - dd36 8y ago
    There was a decade of complaints and more than enough to connect the dots. Looking the other way because you like the results goes to intent. Threatening ones job unless they sign up X many customers for a product is coercion. Sales quotas are inherently coercive. If you choose to do zero quality control and employees learn cheating is okay then it is bad.
    - leoc 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - nradov 8y ago
    The branch employees were effectively forced to cheat because that was the only way to meet their sales goals and keep their jobs. The executives knew this, but chose to look the other way.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

cft 8y ago

I had an interesting experience in Wells Fargo around 2012. I had probably 10 business accounts there, including the main receivable account, as well as an account from which about 7 contractors were paid monthly to the tune of $100,000/mo. I was the only signatory to the account, the only person with a login. I had my personal accounts attached there as well. A some point I log in into WF from my regular office laptop (static IP) and instead of the account balances I see a warning: your access has been restricted due to security. Please call an 800 number. I log in from my phone via different IP, same result. My attempts to talk to the assigned business banker went nowhere: she repeated the same number. When I called that number, I got treated like a criminal, I got yelled at and I was told that all accounts needed to be renumbered, and the previous accounts would disappear including the account history. With multiple vendors and contractors, renumbering accounts is true hell. When I asked this person about the alternatives and for a reason for this action I was told that this was done "for my safety", and if I needed the details they could only be obtained via a subpoena. I tell her that according to my knowledge, a subpoena can be obtained only during a civil litigation, and I am asking her if she invites her customer to litigate against the bank? She rudely responds that if I do not want my accounts renumbered, she would leave this as as (with the security warning and no account access). Since this is business critical, I acquiesce and she removes the warning, but the accounts are read-only now. She then tells me that I need to go to a branch, killing my workday. At the branch a salesperson tries to sell me their new accounts and packages (that are of course worse than the original ones). When she realizes I am not an easy target, she just asks me if I am ready for the account renumbering. I ask her if my accountants will have access to the CSV - without this we cannot even make quarterly tax payments. She says sure. I ask her that just in case, I want to download the accounts (all 10 plus 4 personal ones). She says go ahead on your laptop (like I am paranoid, I don't need this). I ask her if they have WiFi in the branch. Not for me. No problem, I tether to my phone (for 2012 it was advanced) and download. Then she hits the button- the accounts are completely gone! Only the end balances got transferred to the new accounts. I leave. Then I call Wells Fargo and ask how I can get the CSV histories. A business Banker tells me that she can fax the hard copies of each monthly statement for $12 per statement per account! When I discuss this later this awful experience with my regular business banker at my branch, I ask her if higher balance accounts get treated the same. She says that my accounts (low 7 digit balance) are too small, but starting from 8 digit, you get a different treatment! I still cannot understand what kind of "safety" a new account number can provide, because every time I write a check I disclose my account number.