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So many people consider this a menace when in many ways it's closer to utopia. For decades cities have tried to get commuters to switch to bikes and public tran

So many people consider this a menace when in many ways it's closer to utopia. For decades cities have tried to get commuters to switch to bikes and public transportation, but nothing has really stuck in the states due to the convenience of cars. Now that it's happening, some people aren't happy. The situation is basically that 20% of the population of some cities has switched to an ideal form of transportation within months, and our infrastructure isn't built for it. Imagine the number of bike commuters increased 1000% in three months. That's the situation were in. The irony of people complaining about it isn't lost on me. People love bikes, and you never really hear complaints about people riding them just about anywhere. Bikers have been "violating" road and sidewalk laws for longer than cars have existed. These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations better (reflectors, headlights, sometimes brake lights) . They're basically as carbon friendly as you can get for a motorized vehicle. And they're cheap and fairly durable. I bought one ~6 months ago and no problems for 500+ miles, it's practically taken my car off the road permenantly. We should be embracing these scooter with open arms. They're drastically reducing road congestion at least in my city. Even displacing rideshare to the point that I've had many drivers tell me that nobody gets picked up downtown anymore. But I guess the "get off my road/sidewalk" backlash is inevitable because people don't like change.

romwell 8y ago
I agree with the general vibe of your post, but have some objections as a commuter cyclist who tried one of the e-scooters (Lime) last week. >These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations better These things aren't slower than bikes: mine clocked at over 15MPH (I checked with a sports tracker app). Yes, bikes can go faster. But commuter bikes usually don't (with traffic lights and obstacles peppered along your commute, you aren't riding at your top speed all the time). More importantly, these things accelerate faster than most casual cyclists. Now, these things might have brake lights, but they don't have turn signals. And they are way more unstable than bicycles; it's pretty hard to indicate turns with one hand off the handlebars (and both hands off handlebars = fall, unlike on a bike). Its small size is a disadvantage when it comes to visibility. And small wheels aren't good when it comes to potholes or curbs. And it's not obvious how to jump off that thing at speed (you can't let go of handlebars!). So, we have an unstable (compared to a bike) platform that can suddenly, unpredictably (to others) accelerate to 15MPH. Is this the future? Weather permitting, looks like it. But we definitely don't have infrastructure for it yet. We need roads for traffic like that which aren't for either cars or pedestrians. And narrow bike lanes which cars can get into simply won't do.
- dcosson 8y ago
  Seems like splitting hairs. Maybe the scooters can accelerate a little faster with less effort, but I don't think it's really that big of a difference. As for average commuting speed, I've ridden them on a bike path and I pass some slower bikes and some faster bikes pass me. Feels like it's right in the middle of the pack on speed. And there's a lot of variance in the scooters from one unit to the next, as the battery gets below 50% and as the alignment of the wheels starts to need adjusting they definitely slow down. You also obviously don't have to ride the scooter at top speed all the time, any more than you have to ride your bike at top speed or drive your car at 80mph on every road you drive on. And scooters are a little lighter at least than a casual bike (probably about the same or maybe a little heavier than a good road bike?), and they have a slightly smaller footprint. Overall I don't see any argument that these things will require a brand new kind of road infrastructure we haven't conceived of yet. They should just be allowed anywhere a bike is allowed, and any of the efforts that are already underway to expand protected bike lanes will benefit these scooters as well.
- hndamien 8y ago
  I disagree with the general vibe of your post although you do make some valid points. They do accelerate faster than bikes, because they have a lower mass (or due to gearing). This lower mass is very important when you have a collision - force x time = momentum. You can very quickly take the force out of an impending collision with a scooter, compared to a bike. Due to this fact, it makes turn indicating much less important, but I agree it is a slight problem. For comparison though, pedestrians don't give turn signals, and scooters here are in an uncanny valley. You can in fact hold your scooter by the middle of the handle bar and ride one handed, but I wouldn't recommend this. I however can quite easily drink a can of drink while riding my scooter - but this is not a novice behaviour for sure. My feeling is, indicating is a nice to have, but won't be forthcoming, and it is upon the rider to be aware and give way to all other vehicles and pedestrians. Due to speed and agility, scooters are at the bottom of the right of way totem pole, and that's ok. Visibility is pretty well catered for on an ES2 with lights all over it, and most scooters now have some lighting front and back. This is a non-issue really as they are about equivalent to a pedestrian even when accounting for speed (which again should be moderated by the rider). Small wheels are not good for potholes, and also, they have pretty horrible traction in the wet. That said, this is a rider safety issue more than third party. Some wheel bases are getting a little bigger to cater for this, with suspension as well. This is not so bad as to be prohibitive. It is prohibitive for wet weather, but not at other times. The great advantage is that quickly jumping off and breaking with your feet on the ground and just running is a perfectky fine stopping mechanism. Average human sprinting speed is 15.9mph and top speed (Usain Bolt) is 28mph. These are effectively just like having people sprinting everywhere. This also leads me to think that a helmet is not required, however there should be a strong push to bring their weight down (which is difficult due to durability/ cost). Most durable decent long distance scooters are about 12kgs with the lighter side short range coming in at around 7kgs. This puts the average adult riding a heavy one at 15mph at a total weight of 74kgs. For comparison, a scooter has a stopping distance of Braking distance 3.9m on dry asphalt from 12.4 mph and 165 (74kg) pound person. (Shorter if you jump off). By comparison, a bike which has a fast commuter speed of 30mph has a stopping distance of 10.4m. Average commuter speed for a bike is 20mph, with a stopping distance 4.62m (http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/brakes2.html http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/brakes2.html). I agree we don't quite have the infrastructure, but I wouldn't let perfect get in the way of good enough as we transition there. Footpaths in most cases are good enough, in some cases roads should be used, and in some cases it should be bike paths. The sensible choice is always clear to me, but maybe not to everyone, similarly, the etiquette is not set yet. I think for now, more effort should be done on establishing laws - no helmet is ok, lighting back and front is required, bike paths when available, footpaths when car traffic is high, side of road when pedestrian traffic far exceeds car traffic so long as car traffic is under 35km/h in high density areas. Passing pedestrians should aims for at least 1.5m and not be travelling in excess of 8km/h while passing. Pedestrians always given right of way. Cyclists routinely overtake me when I'm on my scooter, so it is just false that they don't go faster on average (and stats bear this out) 20mph vs 15mph. The main difference is gearing. Going up a hill a scooter will often be faster (up to a point where the scooter won't go up the hill. Flat or down hill a scooter will generally be a bit or a lot slower respectively. Thats kind of my initial thoughts, but I'm sure you could do better.
saiya-jin 8y ago
Yeah, my experience is different. I mean, I had the same mentality, shaving off 20-30 minutes of commute daily with 0 carbon footprint, just a smooth cool ride into the sunset (or sunrise). On paper many scooters looked fine for my use case (100kg allowance, 25kmh max speed, 25-30km reach). Since its a new technology, I didn't went for the most expensive trendy ones, rather something much cheaper, in case it turns out not-there-yet. Well, it turned out not-there-at-all. Brand is called V-Max, not sure how popular they are. First one lasted 3 months, then broke down. Mail back to eshop, got another brand new in a week. This one lasted 2 weeks, suddenly battery started giving maybe 50% of the power, it became uselessly slow. Next round trip to eshop, brand new one lasted like 4 days. It just stopped responding to power button unless plugged in. Another round trip, now it works, unless its below +10 degrees Celsius, then it randomly shuts down after 2-3 mins. You can say, buy something 5x as expensive (meaning good brand). Well, I am not going to shell that amount of cash on just a scooter. For me its a nice to have, nothing more. These things are fragile (imagine cheap electric bike ridden hard). Pavements are often not in good shape (in Switzerland!), so ride is bumpy. Manufacturers lie like hell on real range - its probably 25-30% in real world, on normal +-flat sidewalks. I've seen complaints about this all over internet. With modest uphill, many will crawl slower than walking pace. One thing I noticed - it is properly dangerous to ride it. My gut feeling says much more than regular bike. People love to just pop out from behind the cars into sidewalks, even small dirt can throw you off balance easily. Breaking distance is way too long. You have to have both hands on steering all the time, if you get a fly into your eye, or sneeze, you need to stop. You don't need to drive fast to make it dangerous - people just don't expect you. Driving on the road is forbidden here, and this is frankly not something that belongs on the roads (apart from regulatory requirements). Overall, cool idea, one day maybe, unless they will be regulated to hell beforehand.
brian-armstrong 8y ago
Most bicycles do avoid sidewalks, from what I've observed - I've seen many cyclists on the road and few riding on sidewalks. I don't think there's much point in drawing a distinction between scooters and bicycles. They will have similar traffic considerations and both are a menace on the sidewalk. It'd be great if we could cater to both, but the answer isn't to bring scooters (or cyclists) onto the sidewalks.
adrianmonk 8y ago
Oddly enough, I think scooters have achieved what Segway tried to achieve nearly 20 years ago. From the original promo video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNw5nI_3iE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNw5nI_3iE ): "What Henry Ford did in the century for rural America is what this device will do for city-dwellers all over this country and all over the planet. We have a solution, and it's a cost-effective, energy-effective solution, and that's a really big deal." Perhaps the missing ingredient is that we have all have smartphones, so we can rent scooters whenever and wherever. It also probably helps that scooters are cheaper than Segways.
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  It's a bit of a pivot IMHO - most of the electric scooters around here are marked "Using Segway technology."
davidgould 8y ago
Which model scooter did you get and how has it worked out so far?

romwell 8y ago

I agree with the general vibe of your post, but have some objections as a commuter cyclist who tried one of the e-scooters (Lime) last week. >These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations better These things aren't slower than bikes: mine clocked at over 15MPH (I checked with a sports tracker app). Yes, bikes can go faster. But commuter bikes usually don't (with traffic lights and obstacles peppered along your commute, you aren't riding at your top speed all the time). More importantly, these things accelerate faster than most casual cyclists. Now, these things might have brake lights, but they don't have turn signals. And they are way more unstable than bicycles; it's pretty hard to indicate turns with one hand off the handlebars (and both hands off handlebars = fall, unlike on a bike). Its small size is a disadvantage when it comes to visibility. And small wheels aren't good when it comes to potholes or curbs. And it's not obvious how to jump off that thing at speed (you can't let go of handlebars!). So, we have an unstable (compared to a bike) platform that can suddenly, unpredictably (to others) accelerate to 15MPH. Is this the future? Weather permitting, looks like it. But we definitely don't have infrastructure for it yet. We need roads for traffic like that which aren't for either cars or pedestrians. And narrow bike lanes which cars can get into simply won't do.

dcosson 8y ago
Seems like splitting hairs. Maybe the scooters can accelerate a little faster with less effort, but I don't think it's really that big of a difference. As for average commuting speed, I've ridden them on a bike path and I pass some slower bikes and some faster bikes pass me. Feels like it's right in the middle of the pack on speed. And there's a lot of variance in the scooters from one unit to the next, as the battery gets below 50% and as the alignment of the wheels starts to need adjusting they definitely slow down. You also obviously don't have to ride the scooter at top speed all the time, any more than you have to ride your bike at top speed or drive your car at 80mph on every road you drive on. And scooters are a little lighter at least than a casual bike (probably about the same or maybe a little heavier than a good road bike?), and they have a slightly smaller footprint. Overall I don't see any argument that these things will require a brand new kind of road infrastructure we haven't conceived of yet. They should just be allowed anywhere a bike is allowed, and any of the efforts that are already underway to expand protected bike lanes will benefit these scooters as well.
hndamien 8y ago
I disagree with the general vibe of your post although you do make some valid points. They do accelerate faster than bikes, because they have a lower mass (or due to gearing). This lower mass is very important when you have a collision - force x time = momentum. You can very quickly take the force out of an impending collision with a scooter, compared to a bike. Due to this fact, it makes turn indicating much less important, but I agree it is a slight problem. For comparison though, pedestrians don't give turn signals, and scooters here are in an uncanny valley. You can in fact hold your scooter by the middle of the handle bar and ride one handed, but I wouldn't recommend this. I however can quite easily drink a can of drink while riding my scooter - but this is not a novice behaviour for sure. My feeling is, indicating is a nice to have, but won't be forthcoming, and it is upon the rider to be aware and give way to all other vehicles and pedestrians. Due to speed and agility, scooters are at the bottom of the right of way totem pole, and that's ok. Visibility is pretty well catered for on an ES2 with lights all over it, and most scooters now have some lighting front and back. This is a non-issue really as they are about equivalent to a pedestrian even when accounting for speed (which again should be moderated by the rider). Small wheels are not good for potholes, and also, they have pretty horrible traction in the wet. That said, this is a rider safety issue more than third party. Some wheel bases are getting a little bigger to cater for this, with suspension as well. This is not so bad as to be prohibitive. It is prohibitive for wet weather, but not at other times. The great advantage is that quickly jumping off and breaking with your feet on the ground and just running is a perfectky fine stopping mechanism. Average human sprinting speed is 15.9mph and top speed (Usain Bolt) is 28mph. These are effectively just like having people sprinting everywhere. This also leads me to think that a helmet is not required, however there should be a strong push to bring their weight down (which is difficult due to durability/ cost). Most durable decent long distance scooters are about 12kgs with the lighter side short range coming in at around 7kgs. This puts the average adult riding a heavy one at 15mph at a total weight of 74kgs. For comparison, a scooter has a stopping distance of Braking distance 3.9m on dry asphalt from 12.4 mph and 165 (74kg) pound person. (Shorter if you jump off). By comparison, a bike which has a fast commuter speed of 30mph has a stopping distance of 10.4m. Average commuter speed for a bike is 20mph, with a stopping distance 4.62m (http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/brakes2.html http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/brakes2.html). I agree we don't quite have the infrastructure, but I wouldn't let perfect get in the way of good enough as we transition there. Footpaths in most cases are good enough, in some cases roads should be used, and in some cases it should be bike paths. The sensible choice is always clear to me, but maybe not to everyone, similarly, the etiquette is not set yet. I think for now, more effort should be done on establishing laws - no helmet is ok, lighting back and front is required, bike paths when available, footpaths when car traffic is high, side of road when pedestrian traffic far exceeds car traffic so long as car traffic is under 35km/h in high density areas. Passing pedestrians should aims for at least 1.5m and not be travelling in excess of 8km/h while passing. Pedestrians always given right of way. Cyclists routinely overtake me when I'm on my scooter, so it is just false that they don't go faster on average (and stats bear this out) 20mph vs 15mph. The main difference is gearing. Going up a hill a scooter will often be faster (up to a point where the scooter won't go up the hill. Flat or down hill a scooter will generally be a bit or a lot slower respectively. Thats kind of my initial thoughts, but I'm sure you could do better.

saiya-jin 8y ago

Yeah, my experience is different. I mean, I had the same mentality, shaving off 20-30 minutes of commute daily with 0 carbon footprint, just a smooth cool ride into the sunset (or sunrise). On paper many scooters looked fine for my use case (100kg allowance, 25kmh max speed, 25-30km reach). Since its a new technology, I didn't went for the most expensive trendy ones, rather something much cheaper, in case it turns out not-there-yet. Well, it turned out not-there-at-all. Brand is called V-Max, not sure how popular they are. First one lasted 3 months, then broke down. Mail back to eshop, got another brand new in a week. This one lasted 2 weeks, suddenly battery started giving maybe 50% of the power, it became uselessly slow. Next round trip to eshop, brand new one lasted like 4 days. It just stopped responding to power button unless plugged in. Another round trip, now it works, unless its below +10 degrees Celsius, then it randomly shuts down after 2-3 mins. You can say, buy something 5x as expensive (meaning good brand). Well, I am not going to shell that amount of cash on just a scooter. For me its a nice to have, nothing more. These things are fragile (imagine cheap electric bike ridden hard). Pavements are often not in good shape (in Switzerland!), so ride is bumpy. Manufacturers lie like hell on real range - its probably 25-30% in real world, on normal +-flat sidewalks. I've seen complaints about this all over internet. With modest uphill, many will crawl slower than walking pace. One thing I noticed - it is properly dangerous to ride it. My gut feeling says much more than regular bike. People love to just pop out from behind the cars into sidewalks, even small dirt can throw you off balance easily. Breaking distance is way too long. You have to have both hands on steering all the time, if you get a fly into your eye, or sneeze, you need to stop. You don't need to drive fast to make it dangerous - people just don't expect you. Driving on the road is forbidden here, and this is frankly not something that belongs on the roads (apart from regulatory requirements). Overall, cool idea, one day maybe, unless they will be regulated to hell beforehand.

brian-armstrong 8y ago

Most bicycles do avoid sidewalks, from what I've observed - I've seen many cyclists on the road and few riding on sidewalks. I don't think there's much point in drawing a distinction between scooters and bicycles. They will have similar traffic considerations and both are a menace on the sidewalk. It'd be great if we could cater to both, but the answer isn't to bring scooters (or cyclists) onto the sidewalks.

adrianmonk 8y ago

Oddly enough, I think scooters have achieved what Segway tried to achieve nearly 20 years ago. From the original promo video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNw5nI_3iE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNw5nI_3iE ): "What Henry Ford did in the century for rural America is what this device will do for city-dwellers all over this country and all over the planet. We have a solution, and it's a cost-effective, energy-effective solution, and that's a really big deal." Perhaps the missing ingredient is that we have all have smartphones, so we can rent scooters whenever and wherever. It also probably helps that scooters are cheaper than Segways.

Piskvorrr 8y ago
It's a bit of a pivot IMHO - most of the electric scooters around here are marked "Using Segway technology."

davidgould 8y ago

Which model scooter did you get and how has it worked out so far?