12 ms·

Money can buy happiness, but not unconditionally

59 points by Doncametic 8y ago

ashwinaj 8y ago
Interesting analysis, for me the takeaway was that he is 24. Going anecdotally, most people who are 24 think money can buy happiness; and it makes sense since most of them have: 1. Some form of debt 2. Lived off their parents or lower wage work 3. All of a sudden get paid thousands of $$ (assuming it's a high paid full time job, which this person seems to have) As we grow older, I think our perspectives change (mine certainly did). It's the same argument that we no longer played with dolls/toys/action figures when we are in our teens.
enraged_camel 8y ago
It absolutely can. Even without the categories the author tracked, a decrease in overall financial anxiety leads to an increase in happiness, which perhaps culminates with the point where one no longer needs to work in order to live.
- lbotos 8y ago
  I think a lot of people realize that "decreasing financial anxiety" would help with happiness, but I think for many, the first step is an honest look at expenses and understanding where their money goes. That always seems like the blocker.
esotericn 8y ago
I don't think anyone contests the fact that money increases happiness _up to a point_. Once you have full financial security though, it becomes quite nonlinear. Outside of bonkers areas, 1 million NW gets you retirement. 10 million NW gets you that plus... toys. It's a major reason why taxation should focus on the rich (as opposed to the 'well off' e.g. high incomes). They really will not notice it aside from ideological opposition.
- amai 8y ago
  That is why I opt for a wealth dependent income tax. If your wealth is already very high you basically won’t notice a higher tax on your income :https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/9421/why-not-have-a-wealth-dependent-income-tax https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/9421/why-not-ha...
- ryanmccullagh 8y ago
  Why has taxes only significantly affect low to middle income people/families?
  - esotericn 8y ago
    If you are not financially independent then taxation (on income and consumption) directly reduces your ability to get to such a state. If you are financially independent then it reduces the number, or type of activities/goods you can partake in or buy. I offer without proof the claim that being free in the economic sense is a far greater determinant of happiness.
  - mtgx 8y ago
    Because 30% tax off a $1,500 a month salary is a lot worse for your chances of survival/living a decent life vs if you had a salary/income of $15,000+ a month.
- Kaveren 8y ago
  Taxes already do focus on the wealthy with progressive taxes (in many countries), though. From an American perspective, the top federal income tax bracket is 37%. The top state income tax rate can be anywhere from 0% to 12.3% (California), so in total you can pay up to 49.3% of a potion of your income in taxes. In America, the top 1% paid 45.7% of total income tax in 2015 [1] (earning 17% of "expanded cash income"), so you're already talking about a rate over proportionally double. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-federal-income-taxes.html https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-fed...
  - coldtea 8y ago
NicoJuicy 8y ago
Money can't buy happiness, the lack of money is a source of "unhappiness", totally different.
- Zyst 8y ago
  The lack of money to do what? To spend? Because that's what we call having money.
ur-whale 8y ago
Is this really a study where there is exactly one subject? He can gather another million data point about a single subject (himself), that's never going to prove the point. At the very best, he'll prove money makes him happy. And probably not even that, given how many factors might affect his own life and moods.
- audleman 8y ago
  I too find it strange that he couches this as a scientific study. A study of....himself. Aside from starting an anecdotal conversation about happiness and money, there is no scientific merit here.
Simulacra 8y ago
I think it truly depends on the person. Give me $10 million and I will be very happy for the rest of my life as I indulge every hobby I’ve ever wanted, and build concrete security for myself and my family. I think it truly depends on the person. Give me $10 million and I will be very happy for the rest of my life as I indulge every hubby I’ve ever wanted, and build concrete security for myself and my family. The philosophical questions that money cannot buy you friends in love, but that Mrs. the point of people who don’t necessarily need that in their lives.
- Regardsyjc 8y ago
  One of my biggest nightmares is that money might bring out the worst in people whether myself, my family, or my friends so if I was lucky enough to get $10M, it would ruin my life by destroying everything that I love. Sort of like the data behind the misfortunes of lottery winners. http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4176128/powerball-jackpot-lottery-winners http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4176128/powerball-jackpot-lotter... In my limited experience, money makes it harder to have good relationships. “I just don’t like Jack Whittaker. I don’t like the hard heart I’ve got,” he said. “I don’t like what I’ve become.”
amoitnga 8y ago
I think it's a well-established fact that going from poor to middle class makes a huge difference, from middle to top makes difference too, but not as big. 5 years ago I was a carpenter in New York making some 30k a year, I was miserable. I wanted a different job, but not only because of a better paycheck, but also a kind of work I'd do, the way I'd spend my days. Now I'm a web developer and having that background really puts things into perspective. That perspective makes me pretty darn happy. My point is this: It's an equation with multiple variables, where 'money' is only one of 'em. For me it's M + T + Q = H M = Money T = Amount of time you spend to get it Q = quality of that time. Sure you can make big buck but do something you're absolutely horrified by, something that makes you miserable... Or you make a pretty modest paycheck, but enjoy every minute of it. Of course, there is more to it, but it conveys the idea: Money affects how you feel, but there is more to that.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  This is a great argument against working unpaid overtime. Unpaid overtime work holds M constant while reducing T - recomputing your M and T cause M to reduce at a rate of 2.5% per hour worked past 40. And your Q might reduce as well.
  - stanleydrew 8y ago
    What if the model were changed to M + T*Q = H so that time and quality of the time are tightly coupled. Unpaid overtime that has a high quality might then still pay off (although this is also true in the case where T and Q are additive, just tougher to achieve).
    - stephengillie 8y ago
      Since Q is already a component of T, this would cause both to decline even faster. The more you value your off-time, and the less you have, the less happier you'll be. What you're looking for is W, the happiness you get from your work. To modify the equation again: M + T*Q + W = H
- 8y ago
djhworld 8y ago
The bit I find strange about this tracking is the whole daily spend thing. I track my finances too and I have many "zero-spend" days, but it doesn't paint a true picture because some costs come out all in one go (e.g. rent, bills etc) Unless he's amortising those costs in his tracking?
intralizee 8y ago
Money can buy happiness is true in the sense of fulfilling a requirement for obtaining the need(s) to experience a happy outgoing life. A person may need an operation to improve their own health and afterwards would be able to seek happiness as the current moment is dread by the variables of requiring the procedure. Further, the person can only obtain the course of action needed with a sum of finances they lack. Another person may fit the same scenario but have the finances and can place themselves on the path of happiness sooner which may be better than later. I see this in the transgender community a lot. People debate it all the time because of discomfort towards the idea that finances are a factor in obtaining vs not in having a happy life.
mezod 8y ago
Great write-up, I remember you shared this with me before when I posted about my habit tracker :) https://everyday.app https://everyday.app

59 points by Doncametic 8y ago

Interesting analysis, for me the takeaway was that he is 24. Going anecdotally, most people who are 24 think money can buy happiness; and it makes sense since most of them have: 1. Some form of debt 2. Lived off their parents or lower wage work 3. All of a sudden get paid thousands of $$ (assuming it's a high paid full time job, which this person seems to have) As we grow older, I think our perspectives change (mine certainly did). It's the same argument that we no longer played with dolls/toys/action figures when we are in our teens.

enraged_camel 8y ago

It absolutely can. Even without the categories the author tracked, a decrease in overall financial anxiety leads to an increase in happiness, which perhaps culminates with the point where one no longer needs to work in order to live.

lbotos 8y ago
I think a lot of people realize that "decreasing financial anxiety" would help with happiness, but I think for many, the first step is an honest look at expenses and understanding where their money goes. That always seems like the blocker.

esotericn 8y ago

I don't think anyone contests the fact that money increases happiness _up to a point_. Once you have full financial security though, it becomes quite nonlinear. Outside of bonkers areas, 1 million NW gets you retirement. 10 million NW gets you that plus... toys. It's a major reason why taxation should focus on the rich (as opposed to the 'well off' e.g. high incomes). They really will not notice it aside from ideological opposition.

amai 8y ago
That is why I opt for a wealth dependent income tax. If your wealth is already very high you basically won’t notice a higher tax on your income :https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/9421/why-not-have-a-wealth-dependent-income-tax https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/9421/why-not-ha...
ryanmccullagh 8y ago
Why has taxes only significantly affect low to middle income people/families?
- esotericn 8y ago
  If you are not financially independent then taxation (on income and consumption) directly reduces your ability to get to such a state. If you are financially independent then it reduces the number, or type of activities/goods you can partake in or buy. I offer without proof the claim that being free in the economic sense is a far greater determinant of happiness.
- mtgx 8y ago
  Because 30% tax off a $1,500 a month salary is a lot worse for your chances of survival/living a decent life vs if you had a salary/income of $15,000+ a month.
Kaveren 8y ago
Taxes already do focus on the wealthy with progressive taxes (in many countries), though. From an American perspective, the top federal income tax bracket is 37%. The top state income tax rate can be anywhere from 0% to 12.3% (California), so in total you can pay up to 49.3% of a potion of your income in taxes. In America, the top 1% paid 45.7% of total income tax in 2015 [1] (earning 17% of "expanded cash income"), so you're already talking about a rate over proportionally double. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-federal-income-taxes.html https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-fed...
- coldtea 8y ago

NicoJuicy 8y ago

Money can't buy happiness, the lack of money is a source of "unhappiness", totally different.

Zyst 8y ago
The lack of money to do what? To spend? Because that's what we call having money.

ur-whale 8y ago

Is this really a study where there is exactly one subject? He can gather another million data point about a single subject (himself), that's never going to prove the point. At the very best, he'll prove money makes him happy. And probably not even that, given how many factors might affect his own life and moods.

audleman 8y ago
I too find it strange that he couches this as a scientific study. A study of....himself. Aside from starting an anecdotal conversation about happiness and money, there is no scientific merit here.

Simulacra 8y ago

I think it truly depends on the person. Give me $10 million and I will be very happy for the rest of my life as I indulge every hobby I’ve ever wanted, and build concrete security for myself and my family. I think it truly depends on the person. Give me $10 million and I will be very happy for the rest of my life as I indulge every hubby I’ve ever wanted, and build concrete security for myself and my family. The philosophical questions that money cannot buy you friends in love, but that Mrs. the point of people who don’t necessarily need that in their lives.

Regardsyjc 8y ago
One of my biggest nightmares is that money might bring out the worst in people whether myself, my family, or my friends so if I was lucky enough to get $10M, it would ruin my life by destroying everything that I love. Sort of like the data behind the misfortunes of lottery winners. http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4176128/powerball-jackpot-lottery-winners http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4176128/powerball-jackpot-lotter... In my limited experience, money makes it harder to have good relationships. “I just don’t like Jack Whittaker. I don’t like the hard heart I’ve got,” he said. “I don’t like what I’ve become.”

amoitnga 8y ago

I think it's a well-established fact that going from poor to middle class makes a huge difference, from middle to top makes difference too, but not as big. 5 years ago I was a carpenter in New York making some 30k a year, I was miserable. I wanted a different job, but not only because of a better paycheck, but also a kind of work I'd do, the way I'd spend my days. Now I'm a web developer and having that background really puts things into perspective. That perspective makes me pretty darn happy. My point is this: It's an equation with multiple variables, where 'money' is only one of 'em. For me it's M + T + Q = H M = Money T = Amount of time you spend to get it Q = quality of that time. Sure you can make big buck but do something you're absolutely horrified by, something that makes you miserable... Or you make a pretty modest paycheck, but enjoy every minute of it. Of course, there is more to it, but it conveys the idea: Money affects how you feel, but there is more to that.

stephengillie 8y ago
This is a great argument against working unpaid overtime. Unpaid overtime work holds M constant while reducing T - recomputing your M and T cause M to reduce at a rate of 2.5% per hour worked past 40. And your Q might reduce as well.
- stanleydrew 8y ago
  What if the model were changed to M + T*Q = H so that time and quality of the time are tightly coupled. Unpaid overtime that has a high quality might then still pay off (although this is also true in the case where T and Q are additive, just tougher to achieve).
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    Since Q is already a component of T, this would cause both to decline even faster. The more you value your off-time, and the less you have, the less happier you'll be. What you're looking for is W, the happiness you get from your work. To modify the equation again: M + T*Q + W = H
8y ago

djhworld 8y ago

The bit I find strange about this tracking is the whole daily spend thing. I track my finances too and I have many "zero-spend" days, but it doesn't paint a true picture because some costs come out all in one go (e.g. rent, bills etc) Unless he's amortising those costs in his tracking?

intralizee 8y ago

Money can buy happiness is true in the sense of fulfilling a requirement for obtaining the need(s) to experience a happy outgoing life. A person may need an operation to improve their own health and afterwards would be able to seek happiness as the current moment is dread by the variables of requiring the procedure. Further, the person can only obtain the course of action needed with a sum of finances they lack. Another person may fit the same scenario but have the finances and can place themselves on the path of happiness sooner which may be better than later. I see this in the transgender community a lot. People debate it all the time because of discomfort towards the idea that finances are a factor in obtaining vs not in having a happy life.

mezod 8y ago

Great write-up, I remember you shared this with me before when I posted about my habit tracker :) https://everyday.app https://everyday.app