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The law regarding > 250w e-bikes is ridiculous too and badly needs updating. https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-

The law regarding > 250w e-bikes is ridiculous too and badly needs updating. https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637 https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-r...

clarry 8y ago
What bothers me even more is the 25 kph speed limit, after which all the electronics are legally required to be dead weight. Come on, I can cycle faster than that on muscle power (and I normally do). I've averaged 27 kph doing 90 kilometers on a friggin touring bike, carrying a sleeping bag, change of clothes, shoes. I take a bike to get from place A to B faster. I'd take an electric bike to get even faster while spending less of my own energy. Actually, I'd be quite happy even with just 250W as long as I can use all of it on top of my muscle power, no matter how fast or slow I'm going. Speed is ultimately what makes me pick the car over bike for longer rides.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Yeah but if they'd allow you to ride 35km/h you could use residential roads without impeding traffic. That's dangerous because such bikes might actually eat into car industry profits; think of the jobs! For similar reasons it's a lot easier and cheaper to get a moped that does 45km/h instead of one that does 55km/h.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    This was in the USA, in a smaller town without much biking. But I had a friend that built a couple ebikes. We were at a stop light and the people in the car behind us were visibly annoyed by the two bikers I'm front of them. We cleared the intersection before the even entered it. His was capable of going 88 km/h. The one I was using went to the range of 60. Eventually the torque bent the frame of the bike.
- enoch_r 8y ago
  Riding consistently enough to gain speed is strongly correlated with being a better rider. I don't want to share the bike path with a bunch of 14-year-old kids traveling 40kph on electric bikes that they got for Christmas.
  - horsawlarway 8y ago
    This is a load of horse crap. You routinely hit 25 mph (40kph) simply riding down hills on a normal bike. The 25 kph limit makes no sense. It's a slower speed than almost every rider out there, and it's frustratingly slow as a daily commute.
    - enoch_r 8y ago
      My concern is about relative speed. When going down a hill, everyone is going faster. I'm more worried about unskilled and inexperienced riders blowing past slower riders on the way up the hill.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Not on the sidewalk
    - wpietri 8y ago
      I definitely don't hit speeds like that in a city, and in San Francisco I have plenty of hills to give me opportunities. I don't believe it's safe given urban traffic.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Routinely? On a standard commuter grade bike? The Oxford Cycling Club, pictured here http://www.oxfordcyclingclub.co.uk/the-kings-men/ http://www.oxfordcyclingclub.co.uk/the-kings-men/ claim an average of 20 km/h (13mph) and they're lycra clad racing-bike riders. I think you can break 25km/h readily, but I don't think that means we should increase the speed allowed with power assist. There are moves to make city traffic 32km/h (20mph) limited which would put paid to your 40km/h anyway.
      - 8y ago
- paulcole 8y ago
  >I've averaged 27 kph doing 90 kilometers on a friggin touring bike, carrying a sleeping bag, change of clothes, shoes. You have to realize you’re not the average person right? E-bikes are great for people with mobility issues, people who aren’t interested in riding under only their own power, etc.
  - horsawlarway 8y ago
    He's also not out of the norm in any way. Maybe most riders won't average that speed (although I'd suspect on flat ground they easily would), but any rider going down a decent hill will easily hit 40+ kph. The average running speed of humans is around the same limit - 11 to 15 mph (17 to 25 kph). Almost everyone bikes faster than that.
    - paulcole 8y ago
      Yes, he is out of the norm. Very few people ever ride 90km on a touring bike. Many bicycle enthusiasts do but they are in the minority of people at large. I’m not sure what point you’re making about the downhill speed? If you dropped a cyclist out of a plane, they’d do like 320kph. Nobody needs on an electric assist when they’re going downhill at 40kph. Also I’m not sure who you think is averaging a running speed of 15mph for more than a few hundred feet. If you can hold that speed for 4 minutes you’d be one of about 1000 people in the history of the world. Even holding 11 mph for more than 10 minutes is out of the realm of possibility for the vast majority of people. Electric bikes at reasonable speeds help people of average to below average fitness (whether by age, disability, or other reason) get out and be active on a bicycle. I don’t believe they should be souped up to help some MAMIL (middle age man in lycra) set a new Strava segment record.
      - stingrae 8y ago
        [deleted]
        cma 8y ago
        Counterpoint is if you do 40 mile rides you are most likely already an above average cyclist.
- wpietri 8y ago
  I get that, but as someone who rides a bike in the city, very few cyclists consistently go faster than that. I don't want to have to share a bike lane with people who are riding what is more a small electric motorcycle than a bicycle. That said, I'm all for people buying electric motorcycles if that's what they want. It seems like an area ripe for innovation, and getting somebody to step down from a car to something smaller is great by me.
- oppositelock 8y ago
  They're legally required to be dead weight, but practically, you can bypass all those cutoffs. Yes, it's breaking the law, but we live at a time where every human action is regulated, so I don't particularly care about breaking this law, the consequences are low and odds of being discovered are also low.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    Yes, unless you do something really stupid I think you are going to be fine.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  I think you're an outlier. I accommodate with my bike every day and I never bike faster than 25. Not because I can't, but because I'm just trying to go work safely, why go that fast? I have flexible hours anyway, if I'm late 5 mins no one's gonna notice. If scooters started riding on bike lines I'd sell my bike and start using the train. I don't wanna bike next to an object that is significantly faster than me. If I would be ok with that I'd just use a car.
  - throwaway76543 8y ago
    25kph is a meandering speed for an adult on a road bike. 30kph is quite common and 35kph isn't unusual. I regularly ride paved commuter trails with bikes doing all of those speeds and it really isn't a problem. The idea that a 10kph speed differential between vehicles is a problem doesn't make any sense considering you have a 25kph speed differential with stationary objects on your commute. Or 50kph if you consider two 25kph bikers passing each other. It's really a non issue. 25kph is an unreasonably slow limit. The energy levels involved in a bike crash simply don't compare to the potential for damage in a car crash, in part due to the lack of mass.
    - gnulinux 8y ago
      Your argument doesn't make sense to me. When do two bikes pass each other? That literally never happened to me, if it did I would yell the other biker saying they're going the wrong direction. When are there stationary objects on the bike lane? When a car is stopping, and that annoys the hell outta me and by no means ok or the norm. If there is a >10kph differential between me and a bike I immediately try to let them pass me. Why are they going so fast, threatening all bikers' lives? > It's really a nonissue Well, it may be for you. I've been biking for 15 years and it really is an issue for me. I don't want pedestrians, cars or fast objects on bike lane. If there are a lot of bikes on the bike lane and convoy goes at 30 kph that's perfectly fine, I go 30 too. But if people go 25 and some asshole is trying to go at 35, then we have a problem.
      - boomlinde 8y ago
- ip26 8y ago
  20mph and 28mph work out pretty good. I have a 45kph bike- faster than that would be rather dangerous, but it's fast enough. I sometimes think a cheaper 20mph (32kph) bike with less power and weight would be pleasant; on the 45kph bike, you can't enjoy the scenery or hear the birds, it's too fast. 20mph would be as fast as I ever ride unassisted.
  - clarry 8y ago
    I don't even want to think of in terms of "[insert speed limit] bike", to me it makes more sense that your bike is however fast you ride it, and if it's an electric assist bike, you ride however fast your muscle plus the limited power of the engine ride it. Then it's only a matter of finding the right balance of power that makes the thing useful without turning it into an insane crotch rocket.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  You'll be very hard pressed to average higher than ~20 km/h in cities.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    You'll be hard pressed to average higher than that in a car. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be safer for the cyclist if they could be closer to the maximum speed of the traffic around them when they cycle on the road.
TomMarius 8y ago
This is regulated by EU and can't be changed by member countries AFAIK
- masklinn 8y ago
  What the EU regs say is that e-bikes with an engine under 250W, only pedalling assistance, and whose assistance cuts off above 25km/h must be considered bicycles (with all that implies with respect to legal registration, insurance requirements, available paths, …). That's pretty much it. Nothing precludes having further categories of ebikes or mopeds, or treating more ebikes as bicycles. That is up to member states. What is not is e.g. saying that all ebikes are legally mopeds requiring wearing a motorbike helmet and registration plates.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    > What the EU regs say is that e-bikes with an engine under 250W, only pedalling assistance, and whose assistance cuts off above 25km/h must be considered bicycles (with all that implies with respect to legal registration, insurance requirements, available paths, …). Yes, that's the L1e-A category. > That's pretty much it. Nothing precludes having further categories of ebikes or mopeds, or treating more ebikes as bicycles. That is up to member states. No. Almost every single vehicle you could build has a vehicle category defined by EU regulation[1] and that same regulation requires vehicle inspection, license plates and driving licenses for these vehicles. That means that this vehicle model must be registered - tested, specifications approved by government etc. And of course if there is no category for your vehicle, you can't do it. > What is not is e.g. saying that all ebikes are legally mopeds requiring wearing a motorbike helmet and registration plates. You even said it yourself. That is the whole problem! Building a road legal vehicle in these categories is almost impossible if you're not a large company; importing it is even harder. The compliance required would at least double the price of the vehicle. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category#EU_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category#EU_classifica...
    - masklinn 8y ago
ariwilson 8y ago
California has a very sensible ebike law: https://www.electricbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ChartEbikeLaw.png https://www.electricbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Char...

clarry 8y ago

What bothers me even more is the 25 kph speed limit, after which all the electronics are legally required to be dead weight. Come on, I can cycle faster than that on muscle power (and I normally do). I've averaged 27 kph doing 90 kilometers on a friggin touring bike, carrying a sleeping bag, change of clothes, shoes. I take a bike to get from place A to B faster. I'd take an electric bike to get even faster while spending less of my own energy. Actually, I'd be quite happy even with just 250W as long as I can use all of it on top of my muscle power, no matter how fast or slow I'm going. Speed is ultimately what makes me pick the car over bike for longer rides.

adrianN 8y ago
Yeah but if they'd allow you to ride 35km/h you could use residential roads without impeding traffic. That's dangerous because such bikes might actually eat into car industry profits; think of the jobs! For similar reasons it's a lot easier and cheaper to get a moped that does 45km/h instead of one that does 55km/h.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  This was in the USA, in a smaller town without much biking. But I had a friend that built a couple ebikes. We were at a stop light and the people in the car behind us were visibly annoyed by the two bikers I'm front of them. We cleared the intersection before the even entered it. His was capable of going 88 km/h. The one I was using went to the range of 60. Eventually the torque bent the frame of the bike.
enoch_r 8y ago
Riding consistently enough to gain speed is strongly correlated with being a better rider. I don't want to share the bike path with a bunch of 14-year-old kids traveling 40kph on electric bikes that they got for Christmas.
- horsawlarway 8y ago
  This is a load of horse crap. You routinely hit 25 mph (40kph) simply riding down hills on a normal bike. The 25 kph limit makes no sense. It's a slower speed than almost every rider out there, and it's frustratingly slow as a daily commute.
  - enoch_r 8y ago
    My concern is about relative speed. When going down a hill, everyone is going faster. I'm more worried about unskilled and inexperienced riders blowing past slower riders on the way up the hill.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Not on the sidewalk
  - wpietri 8y ago
    I definitely don't hit speeds like that in a city, and in San Francisco I have plenty of hills to give me opportunities. I don't believe it's safe given urban traffic.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Routinely? On a standard commuter grade bike? The Oxford Cycling Club, pictured here http://www.oxfordcyclingclub.co.uk/the-kings-men/ http://www.oxfordcyclingclub.co.uk/the-kings-men/ claim an average of 20 km/h (13mph) and they're lycra clad racing-bike riders. I think you can break 25km/h readily, but I don't think that means we should increase the speed allowed with power assist. There are moves to make city traffic 32km/h (20mph) limited which would put paid to your 40km/h anyway.
    - 8y ago
paulcole 8y ago
>I've averaged 27 kph doing 90 kilometers on a friggin touring bike, carrying a sleeping bag, change of clothes, shoes. You have to realize you’re not the average person right? E-bikes are great for people with mobility issues, people who aren’t interested in riding under only their own power, etc.
- horsawlarway 8y ago
  He's also not out of the norm in any way. Maybe most riders won't average that speed (although I'd suspect on flat ground they easily would), but any rider going down a decent hill will easily hit 40+ kph. The average running speed of humans is around the same limit - 11 to 15 mph (17 to 25 kph). Almost everyone bikes faster than that.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    Yes, he is out of the norm. Very few people ever ride 90km on a touring bike. Many bicycle enthusiasts do but they are in the minority of people at large. I’m not sure what point you’re making about the downhill speed? If you dropped a cyclist out of a plane, they’d do like 320kph. Nobody needs on an electric assist when they’re going downhill at 40kph. Also I’m not sure who you think is averaging a running speed of 15mph for more than a few hundred feet. If you can hold that speed for 4 minutes you’d be one of about 1000 people in the history of the world. Even holding 11 mph for more than 10 minutes is out of the realm of possibility for the vast majority of people. Electric bikes at reasonable speeds help people of average to below average fitness (whether by age, disability, or other reason) get out and be active on a bicycle. I don’t believe they should be souped up to help some MAMIL (middle age man in lycra) set a new Strava segment record.
    - stingrae 8y ago
      [deleted]
      - cma 8y ago
        Counterpoint is if you do 40 mile rides you are most likely already an above average cyclist.
wpietri 8y ago
I get that, but as someone who rides a bike in the city, very few cyclists consistently go faster than that. I don't want to have to share a bike lane with people who are riding what is more a small electric motorcycle than a bicycle. That said, I'm all for people buying electric motorcycles if that's what they want. It seems like an area ripe for innovation, and getting somebody to step down from a car to something smaller is great by me.
oppositelock 8y ago
They're legally required to be dead weight, but practically, you can bypass all those cutoffs. Yes, it's breaking the law, but we live at a time where every human action is regulated, so I don't particularly care about breaking this law, the consequences are low and odds of being discovered are also low.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Yes, unless you do something really stupid I think you are going to be fine.
gnulinux 8y ago
I think you're an outlier. I accommodate with my bike every day and I never bike faster than 25. Not because I can't, but because I'm just trying to go work safely, why go that fast? I have flexible hours anyway, if I'm late 5 mins no one's gonna notice. If scooters started riding on bike lines I'd sell my bike and start using the train. I don't wanna bike next to an object that is significantly faster than me. If I would be ok with that I'd just use a car.
- throwaway76543 8y ago
  25kph is a meandering speed for an adult on a road bike. 30kph is quite common and 35kph isn't unusual. I regularly ride paved commuter trails with bikes doing all of those speeds and it really isn't a problem. The idea that a 10kph speed differential between vehicles is a problem doesn't make any sense considering you have a 25kph speed differential with stationary objects on your commute. Or 50kph if you consider two 25kph bikers passing each other. It's really a non issue. 25kph is an unreasonably slow limit. The energy levels involved in a bike crash simply don't compare to the potential for damage in a car crash, in part due to the lack of mass.
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    Your argument doesn't make sense to me. When do two bikes pass each other? That literally never happened to me, if it did I would yell the other biker saying they're going the wrong direction. When are there stationary objects on the bike lane? When a car is stopping, and that annoys the hell outta me and by no means ok or the norm. If there is a >10kph differential between me and a bike I immediately try to let them pass me. Why are they going so fast, threatening all bikers' lives? > It's really a nonissue Well, it may be for you. I've been biking for 15 years and it really is an issue for me. I don't want pedestrians, cars or fast objects on bike lane. If there are a lot of bikes on the bike lane and convoy goes at 30 kph that's perfectly fine, I go 30 too. But if people go 25 and some asshole is trying to go at 35, then we have a problem.
    - boomlinde 8y ago
ip26 8y ago
20mph and 28mph work out pretty good. I have a 45kph bike- faster than that would be rather dangerous, but it's fast enough. I sometimes think a cheaper 20mph (32kph) bike with less power and weight would be pleasant; on the 45kph bike, you can't enjoy the scenery or hear the birds, it's too fast. 20mph would be as fast as I ever ride unassisted.
- clarry 8y ago
  I don't even want to think of in terms of "[insert speed limit] bike", to me it makes more sense that your bike is however fast you ride it, and if it's an electric assist bike, you ride however fast your muscle plus the limited power of the engine ride it. Then it's only a matter of finding the right balance of power that makes the thing useful without turning it into an insane crotch rocket.
blattimwind 8y ago
You'll be very hard pressed to average higher than ~20 km/h in cities.
- adrianN 8y ago
  You'll be hard pressed to average higher than that in a car. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be safer for the cyclist if they could be closer to the maximum speed of the traffic around them when they cycle on the road.

TomMarius 8y ago

This is regulated by EU and can't be changed by member countries AFAIK

masklinn 8y ago
What the EU regs say is that e-bikes with an engine under 250W, only pedalling assistance, and whose assistance cuts off above 25km/h must be considered bicycles (with all that implies with respect to legal registration, insurance requirements, available paths, …). That's pretty much it. Nothing precludes having further categories of ebikes or mopeds, or treating more ebikes as bicycles. That is up to member states. What is not is e.g. saying that all ebikes are legally mopeds requiring wearing a motorbike helmet and registration plates.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  > What the EU regs say is that e-bikes with an engine under 250W, only pedalling assistance, and whose assistance cuts off above 25km/h must be considered bicycles (with all that implies with respect to legal registration, insurance requirements, available paths, …). Yes, that's the L1e-A category. > That's pretty much it. Nothing precludes having further categories of ebikes or mopeds, or treating more ebikes as bicycles. That is up to member states. No. Almost every single vehicle you could build has a vehicle category defined by EU regulation[1] and that same regulation requires vehicle inspection, license plates and driving licenses for these vehicles. That means that this vehicle model must be registered - tested, specifications approved by government etc. And of course if there is no category for your vehicle, you can't do it. > What is not is e.g. saying that all ebikes are legally mopeds requiring wearing a motorbike helmet and registration plates. You even said it yourself. That is the whole problem! Building a road legal vehicle in these categories is almost impossible if you're not a large company; importing it is even harder. The compliance required would at least double the price of the vehicle. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category#EU_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category#EU_classifica...
  - masklinn 8y ago

ariwilson 8y ago

California has a very sensible ebike law: https://www.electricbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ChartEbikeLaw.png https://www.electricbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Char...