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The military’s obsession with energy drinks is contributing to PTSD
- nhkssol 8y agoNothing in the article links energy drinks to PTSD. > High energy drink use, which was classified as consuming two or more drinks per day, was significantly associated with those survey respondents who reported mental health problems, anger-related behaviors and fatigue, the authors found. The above passage is about as close as the article gets to its title, and it's left vague by combining mental health problems, anger-related behaviors and fatigue into the same statement.
- Covzire 8y agoAll scientists should be required to take at least two semesters of Chicken-Or-Egg Studies.
- matt4077 8y agoAll those explaining correlation-is-not-causation to scientists for the 500th time should take at least one semester of "You are not as smart as you think, nor are you very original, or know anything about the copious amounts of statistics scientists have to endure today. You're also conveniently living in a world that apparently allows for cheap and fast intervention studies on rare phenomena with long lead times and no apparent ethical qualms of subjecting people to potential harmful interventions. Because only that could allow you to forgo the imperfect (yet historically highly successful) observational studies" (-Studies)
- mattkrause 8y agoAlso the causal direction between say, fatigue and energy drink consumption, is not at all obvious....
- raverbashing 8y agoIt definitely goes both ways See what happens when an energy's drink effect wears off
- mattkrause 8y agoExactly—-and there’s probably a fairly vicious feedback loop too. Tired people reach for caffeine, rebound effects (or mistimed doses) make them even more tired. Lather, rinse, and repeat.... This makes it hard to figure out if the obvious intervention (ban energy drinks) would actually do anything, or if the answer is really more rest—an idea the military has been loathe to adopt in general.
- drngdds 8y agoConsidering the effect of caffeine on sleep, it's a very small leap to make
- IC4RUS 8y agoIt actually a fairly large leap, considering that caffeine can impair sleep quality, causing more fatigue or fatigued people could be consuming caffeine to reduce the fatigue. In many people, both may be happening, so teasing out the direction of causation is difficult.
- andai 8y agoThe two go really well together. I recently quit coffee and started sleeping 10 hours a night. It's hard to get to sleep on time when I've had coffee, but if I get enough sleep, I don't need to have coffee to feel awake.
- wisty 8y agoOr people who feel bad but still need to get stuff done may be more likely to drink a lot of energy drinks. Given the importance of mental health in the military, I'd think it should be enough evidence for some kind of intervention trial though.
- boomboomsubban 8y agoThere is a link to the study right above what you quoted. The "vague" statement is a list of different ailments more commonly reported by people drinking energy drinks.
- mlb_hn 8y agoYeah, the article is a bit misleading, looking at the linked study the authors point out those limitations, > The findings also support the need for further research in this area, particularly longitudinal studies that would allow for stronger assessment of causal relationships. > the measures for depression and PTSD each included two items related to sleep and the models were run with sleep problems as a predictor, which could lead to potential confounding in the analyses; however, this is consistent with research in this area. Personally, one of my worst moments deployed was when our Ripit/RedBull/Tobacco supply got blown up (well, technically the DFAC and PX actually collapsed after being blown up due to shoddy construction) and we had to have people fly them in from BAF. I'm sure the lack of energy drinks contributed to PTSD for those who didn't have alternative logistics.
- otriv 8y agoPerhaps the people who have PTSD are more likely to drink energy drinks?
- snek 8y agoJust to be safe, until I see more data I'm going to assume PTSD causes energy drinks.
- mattkrause 8y agoI know you’re being snarky, but the idea of someone self-medicating is not totally bonkers, which would indeed put the causality on PTSD, not the drink. The classic example is that schizophrenics are much more likely (3x or so) to smoke. Interview with patients suggest that it helps control symptoms and there are somewhat plausible biological mechanisms that could explain why. Stimulant use (mostly cocaine) is a bit more common in some neuropsych conditions. I don’t know of any studies about caffeine and PTSD specifically, but it seems pretty similar.
- Simulacra 8y agoThat and dietary supplements. So many people take dietary supplements without ever getting a simple metabolic panel to even see if they need the supplements.
- Pharmakon 8y agoI just read a BBC story about a man who nuked his liver by taking concentrated green tea capsules. He requires a full transplant and four years later his kidneys are failing and he has chronic abdominal pain. It seems that one or more compounds in green tea (safe as a beverage, problematic as a concentrate) may negatively impact liver function in some genetically vulnerable populations. Truthfully though, it’s not known exactly what happened, only that it does happen.
- jfk13 8y agoFor anyone interested, that story was discussed in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18299354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18299354.
- emersonrsantos 8y agoThe current facts about coffee and sugar are the following: drinking coffee is good for your mental and physical, while sugar is linked to depression, addiction, anxiety, heart problems, obesity and not surprisingly, PTSD: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4522929/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4522929/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4086302/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4086302/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5056806/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5056806/
- flipp3r 8y agoYou're leaving out many things about coffee. Specifically, caffeine, which energy drinks are often loaded with. Caffeine on its own can cause anxiety (See "Caffeine-induced anxiety disorder") and is linked to depression. Let alone workers consuming caffeine during work time with headaches(or other withdrawal symptoms) on their days off who still haven't figured it out the stuff is just plain not good for you.
- brom2 8y agoI've stopped drinking coffee as it would frequently give me anxiety and sometimes panic attacks. I now drink tea or water at work. However, I still need to work harder on cutting down on sugar.
- andai 8y agoI suspected coffee was giving me anxiety which bordered on paranoia. I stopped drinking coffee and it went away immediately. A week later (today) I had a cup to see how I'd respond. Severe anxiety came back within half an hour. Very interesting.
- brom2 8y agoI found that small amounts of alcohol have a similar effect. Keep drinking though and the depressant effects then start to kick in and the anxiety/paranoia subsides.
- loeg 8y agoDoes the military still hand out amphetamines and/or modafinil, or is caffeine really the alertness/wakefulness drug of choice?
- aphextron 8y ago>Does the military still hand out amphetamines and/or modafinil, or is caffeine really the alertness/wakefulness drug of choice? Actual stimulant use is restricted to special forces and flight crews. But anecdotally, the energy drink consumption in the Army is out of control. I can remember people literally ordering pallets of Monster to show up on training exercises. Nicotine too. It's not uncommon to see someone with a dip of Skoal in both sides, smoking a Newport 100, and drinking a Monster all at the same time. It's just a necessary escape when you're living in an environment that has your fight-or-flight response engaged 24/7 causing total CNS overload, with zero access to alcohol or hard drugs and 4 hours of sleep a night.
- Pharmakon 8y agoI would say that as of 2018, the big energy drink is Rip It, and truly the volume and frequency of consumption across the forces cannot be overstated. As you say, when your life and the lives of your comrades is on the line, what else can you do? Most people require drugs to remain some semblance of alert for 18 hours a day, and of course it takes a toll. It’s almost as though a constant state of deployment and endless warfare is a damaging and undesireable condition.
- chrisseaton 8y ago> I can remember people literally ordering pallets of Monster to show up on training exercises. What like as a replen demand? Aren't they restricted to using issued rations on an exercise? And how are they getting them deployed?
- UncleEntity 8y ago> Aren't they restricted to using issued rations on an exercise? That and what you can manage to bring with you. Back when I was in the infantry you carried whatever you took to the field so we tended to pack light(ish). I used to take a little camp stove so I could have hot coffee in the morning and other people would pack stuff like ramen or whatever. Even when we were living in holes ~1km off the Iraqi border they managed to get us cigarettes though that's not one of the "issued rations"...also pretty sure that's when I got that camp stove so other things were possible. Before that, when we were staying is some dilapidated warehouse in Saudi, they had pallets of Pepsi get delivered on a regular basis for the chow hall. On my last trip to Iraq they had pretty much whatever you wanted at the PXs and we (civilian contractor types) used to smuggle a bunch of canned drinks out of the chow halls instead of buying them but don't really remember if they had energy drinks in the coolers since that's not my thing. Think I got a bit rambley there...
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- danielrhodes 8y agoWould this even be a story if people were drinking coffee instead? The active ingredient in Red Bull is caffeine. Yet a cup of coffee has more caffeine than a Red Bull. Their marketing has been very effective in convincing people that energy drinks are more than just a caffeinated drink with a bunch of other chemicals that don’t really work. Because of that, people vilify these various drinks, and now we get an article telling us that the drinks are contributing to PTSD, instead of the obviously greater contributing factor: being in a war zone under constant threat of death.
- ethbro 8y ago+ Sugar
- Keyframe 8y agoYeah, I thought real kick comes from the high sugar content. I used to consume a lot of sugar, but over time I kind of laid off of sugar. Recently, I drank one monster can. Holy shit - I was buzzed and exhausted after.
- stonecraftwolf 8y agoI don’t know, but I do know caffeine can be a trigger for many people with PTSD. The military is probably not a great place to encourage use of substances that can trigger PTSD episodes, but they do a lot worse to soldiers, so...
- saiya-jin 8y agoIsn't in all red bulls quite a bit of sugar/aspartam? Not a healthy stuff, although it shouldn't cause any PTSD. And what about taurine? Not really very explored substance. Personally I drink similar stuff maybe 2x per year, when I have a long (>1000km) drive ahead. Otherwise wouldn't touch that chemical junk with a 10 foot pole.
- paulcole 8y agoI can’t imagine ingesting chemicals. Do you have any recommended chemical-free foods?
- mig39 8y agoI'd say the #1 contribution to PTSD is the traumatic stress.
- jondeng 8y agoDoes this story show any causation or is it just correlation? From my experience in the Army and deployed it was the units closest to the FLOT who would have the most energy drink usage- if you don't have other creature comforts (sleep, hot chow, safety) you tend to resort to things that you can access, like cheap energy drinks. These units would also see the most combat and have the highest prevalence of PTSD.
- ebullientocelot 8y agoThis rings true from my experience in Afghanistan too. We did route clearance in RC North, and were often out for days at a time. Very little bad sleep, end up scraping together whatever cigarettes were available so few people had their preferred brand, the same tired MREs, plastic tasting water which was used for brushing teeth as well as drinking, etc. We did, however, get cases of Rip It and huge boxes of Cliff Bars from the chow hall, sometimes two or more to a truck (3-6 guys). Eventually, all you want is a "flavor" of some kind, and it starts to matter less and less where it comes from. We were all aware that it was better for us to drink the shitty water, but the desire for some kind of gratification eventually overwhelms even the most conscientious efforts to be healthy or maintain balance.
- lovetocode 8y agoI would agree but I think we can agree that all those who spent their entire deployments on BIAP or Bagram are getting their fair share as well. From my deployment experience, I drank Rip-Its more frequently when we were in the full swing of operations out forward from the relative safety of larger bases. I definitely drank more Rip-Its in Afghanistan on a very small FOB.