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I see this playing out right now with Apple's phones, which get continuously bigger and shinier and brighter with every new generation. Then they give us "Scre

I see this playing out right now with Apple's phones, which get continuously bigger and shinier and brighter with every new generation. Then they give us "Screen Time" and Tim Cook talks about giving people the tools to be aware of how much they're using their phones and to make their own decisions about it. If drug companies said "We're discontinuing Advil for your headaches and replacing all painkillers with small dosage opiates, but we'll give you an app to count how much you're taking and you can make your own decisions" we'd immediately jump down their throats. Apple discontinues the iPhone SE, standardizes on a comparatively gigantic 6.1 inch screen size for their mainstream phone model, and tells us "It's fine. We gave people a new app so they won't get addicted to their phones." I don't think it's fine. Apple's just in denial about it because the design team likes big shiny things, premium phones print money, and users keep on buying them because we collectively don't have a grip on the downsides. Just give me a damn phone that I can call a car or text friends on, I don't want to or need to spend hours consuming media on a giant shiny screen. But if I get a giant shiny screen foisted on me, I know it's going to happen. But like you said, if someone's living on their phone too much, we treat it like their own moral failing. The manufacturers that made the phones this way and the software companies that deliberately A/B tested their engagement stats to death to rope you in as hard as possible and sell more ads? Nah, not their fault. It's these irresponsible phone users not owning up to their own faults.

bamboozled 8y ago
I think you’re being an alarmist. My iPhone adds incredible value to my life and I find screen time very useful in helping me control my own urges to over consume enjoyable content. I don’t think people at Apple are intentionally selling you cigarettes or opiate like products. If parents can’t understsnd spending too much time on phones or infront of TV is potentially harmful then it’s common sense we’ve lost. Nothing else. Take it easy.
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  I'm not just talking about kids, I'm talking about adults too. Smartphones absolutely add a lot of convenience and value. But, in my opinion, most of that value doesn't come from having deliberately addictive media consumption available at your fingertips at half a second's notice. Yet that's what phones are being optimized for. Does calling an Uber need a 6" screen? Or voice navigation instructions in my car? Shooting photos and videos? GPS tracking my runs? Most of the things that bigger screens enable are things that I'm trying to minimize, so making these big inviting smartphone screens is no longer adding value to my life. But that's the only phone Apple will sell me. No, it's probably not as bad as opiates. But "not as bad as opiates" is a pretty low bar to set for "should I be OK with this?" The new Palm small phone thing is a nice idea, except that it's a companion accessory to go with a bigger phone. So close: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/10/25/18022382/palm-phone-november-2-release-date-verizon https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/10/25/18022382/... What I really want is a small phone like that to go with an iPad. With a full size tablet, carrying it and sitting down to use it two handed are enough of a barrier that I can't absentmindedly find myself sucked into a reddit hole. Maybe that's Apple's plan to sort this out. Make next year's iPhone Max Plus so big that you have to carry it around in your backpack and can't make a habit of staring at it all the time.
whatshisface 8y ago
>Just give me a damn phone that I can call a car or text friends on, I don't want to or need to spend hours consuming media on a giant shiny screen. But if I get a giant shiny screen foisted on me, I know it's going to happen. Giant screens aren't being foisted on you, you go to the store and pay for them. You could buy a featurephone if you wanted.
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  I'd like to keep the useful parts of a smartphone without optimizing the addictive parts. Too much to ask apparently.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    I feel like this is a fairly weird argument. Bigger screens are not more addictive by themselves.
    - LeftTurnSignal 8y ago
      Their argument seems to be more venting about Apple not selling a phone they want, rather than smartphone addiction.
  - ghostly_s 8y ago
    What is the evidence for your argument that Apple is "optimizing the addictive parts"? Your argument seems to be entirely based on screen size; is there some study that demonstrates a correlation between screen size and 'addictive' qualities?
    - wlesieutre 8y ago
      It's more the 3rd software companies that are optimizing the addictive parts than Apple, because that's how they make money. Having the screen be smaller makes those software products suck enough that I don't like using them for extended periods, it's a defense mechanism against hyper optimized advertising engagement apps. Personally I think that's a feature. My other problem with Apple that they're only interested in the high end $750+ for their phones. The SE was comparatively a steal at $400, and nothing about the new ones is $250 more impressive. Can't be securely held one handed and adds a big screen that I don't want, so I'm not excited about paying more for it.
kara-1234 8y ago
Check out the light phone 2 or the KY-01L, both phone looks pretty awesome. the light phone 2 being just call, text, and the KY-01L having a web browser (though it looks so bad I probably wouldn't use it) Also both those phones have e-ink displays.
- briandear 8y ago
  So the argument is that his phone is too good and he is sucked in? So a crappier phone is the answer? That’s like saying people drive too much so we should remove the air conditioner and radio. It reminds me of the Colonel Sanders scene in So I Married an Ax Murderer: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMS6tGOACo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMS6tGOACo
  - wlesieutre 8y ago
    I don't want to go back down to a feature phone, but if you said "I want to bike more places instead of driving my car everywhere" it would be reasonable to not want to buy an $80,000 luxury sedan that you love to zoom around in. Unfortunately Apple has decided that's the only car they're going to make.
    - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
      Well, it's a good thing there are alternatives to Apple. Their products are grotesquely overpriced anyway.
      - wlesieutre 8y ago
        My main priorities are size, photo quality, and respecting my privacy. I haven't seen a lot of options there, but if someone else is still making a phone that's as good as the iPhone SE I'd love to hear about it.
  - nkurz 8y ago
    That’s like saying people drive too much so we should remove the air conditioner and radio. You imply that this is obviously a bad idea, but why? I wouldn't eliminate the idea out of hand. If cars were slightly less comfortable, maybe people would drive slightly less and walk/bike slightly more. Maybe removing temptation by having a phone that doesn't make it as easy to play games is simply a healthier choice. As a parallel, the Amish are a societal group that isn't being overwhelmed by technology. Contrary to popular belief, the Amish don't shun technology, rather they develop rules as a community to try to figure out how to take advantage of the benefits of technology while avoiding the downsides. In most Amish communities, the current rule is that using telephones is fine, but they are not allowed to be in the house. They tried it when they first came out, and decided it wasn't working. The current approach is to put community phones in outside sheds so they aren't too tempting, but can be used when needed: http://amishamerica.com/got-a-quarter/ http://amishamerica.com/got-a-quarter/
briandear 8y ago
You are loosely comparing a large smartphone with tobacco; yet the reality is that an iPhone is more like matches: you can use it to start a campfire, light a stove to cook some kale or use them to smoke crack. It’s your choice what you do with the matches and it certainly isn’t the match manufacturer’s fault people choose to light the crackpipe rather than “healthier” options. If I understand you correctly, it’s the phone fault people are addicted to bad content? The phone is just too easy to use, too high quality that unwitting victims are just defenseless? If we are talking kids, that’s a parent problem, but if we are talking adults, then it’s a problem of self-responsibility. Grocery stores have plenty of ice cream for sale: it’s up to you to not buy and eat it all the time. Grown ups ought to act like it instead of blaming shiny objects of their own obsessions. Adults aren’t victims of their phones.
mikeash 8y ago
Is there actually a link between screen size and addictiveness?
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  The user experience of scrolling through and viewing lots of content on a 4" screen is honestly not great. Apple, being Apple, sees that as a problem. I consider it a feature because it's easier for me to break away from. Web browsers, youtube, mobile games etc. I don't write emails from my phone unless it's an emergency, but I like having a smartphone because it gives me the option if I need to. A lot of those behaviors, I currently have trouble with at full-size computers. I can absentmindedly browse cat pictures on reddit for a couple of hours. But I have to sit down at my computer to do that, I can't do it comfortably on a 4" phone screen. And I like it that way. Put that comfortable time-wasting computer in my pocket where it follows me everywhere and I'm about 99% certain that I'm have a problem. I'd love to know if someone's studied this more rigorously.
dwighttk 8y ago
Perhaps I just don’t have smartphone addiction, but (if I do) there is something different between this “addiction” and others. There are no withdrawal symptoms for me. I feel the compulsion to pick it up and look at it, but if I don’t have my phone, after reaching for it in my pocket and not finding it a few times I just stop. I don’t feel a need to go find a phone or feel rotten because I don’t have one. And these feelings (that I don’t seem to have anyway) don’t get stronger and stronger until I get back to my phone. I’ve felt withdrawal symptoms for caffeine, and I can only imagine it is worse for stronger drugs. Maybe this addiction is of the same sort but the withdrawal is so slight that I don’t notice?
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  You're right, I don't think it's as physically addictive as chemical compounds can be. But the time wasting is a very easy hole for me to fall into (he said, arguing with people in HN comments :P). It's not the end of the world, if I end up having problems with it on my next bigger phone I'm more than capable of deleting the problematic apps. I've already done that with Facebook on my SE. Even so, I'm also not excited about the ever climbing costs for new "upgrades" that I don't want. SE was a great size and had the top of the line camera from the 6s. Now if I want the smallest screen and the best camera, the price went from $400 to $1000. Welp.
- maemilius 8y ago
  I'm in the same boat as you. One thing I've learned over the last few years is that the problem with "phone addition" has more to do with the lack of boredom than any physical effects. The really short version is that there's some science that suggests that periods of boredom increase creativity. By constantly keeping active with your phone, we're losing this "boredom time". Personally, I've made a habit of occasionally just doing nothing every now and then. Put the phone away; don't listen to anything. It's actually great for my commute home (I take a bus). I can just sit/stand and not do anything and just relax for a few minutes on the way home. Personally, I think the biggest problem here isn't that kids are spending a lot of time looking at their screens. It's that parents _aren't_ spending a lot of time engaging with their kids about the content. When a screen is used to distract a child - or anyone,really - instead of engage them, that's where the problem arises.
blacksmith_tb 8y ago
To be fair, for most people, a smartphone may be their only 'personal computer' - sure, they may or may not work a desk job where they use something with a keyboard, but most of the computing they do on their own time will be on that small (if not getting any smaller...) screen. Does that appeal to me? No, not really, I appreciate having a browser in my pocket sometimes, but I don't watch much in the way of videos or even game on my phone. But we're (mostly) technologists here, and I would think that we tend to feel that using computers is generally good / interesting / empowering. Can it also be pathological? Clearly yes. We have some evidence, accident rates increasing[1] as people can't stop checking their feeds for example. So that's a concrete social problem. But I am less sure about the impact on children - we've had several generations which grew up staring at TVs for hours a day, which may not have done us any favors, but it didn't cause the end of civilization either... 1: https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/distracted-driving/underreported https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/distracted-dri...

bamboozled 8y ago

I think you’re being an alarmist. My iPhone adds incredible value to my life and I find screen time very useful in helping me control my own urges to over consume enjoyable content. I don’t think people at Apple are intentionally selling you cigarettes or opiate like products. If parents can’t understsnd spending too much time on phones or infront of TV is potentially harmful then it’s common sense we’ve lost. Nothing else. Take it easy.

wlesieutre 8y ago
I'm not just talking about kids, I'm talking about adults too. Smartphones absolutely add a lot of convenience and value. But, in my opinion, most of that value doesn't come from having deliberately addictive media consumption available at your fingertips at half a second's notice. Yet that's what phones are being optimized for. Does calling an Uber need a 6" screen? Or voice navigation instructions in my car? Shooting photos and videos? GPS tracking my runs? Most of the things that bigger screens enable are things that I'm trying to minimize, so making these big inviting smartphone screens is no longer adding value to my life. But that's the only phone Apple will sell me. No, it's probably not as bad as opiates. But "not as bad as opiates" is a pretty low bar to set for "should I be OK with this?" The new Palm small phone thing is a nice idea, except that it's a companion accessory to go with a bigger phone. So close: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/10/25/18022382/palm-phone-november-2-release-date-verizon https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/10/25/18022382/... What I really want is a small phone like that to go with an iPad. With a full size tablet, carrying it and sitting down to use it two handed are enough of a barrier that I can't absentmindedly find myself sucked into a reddit hole. Maybe that's Apple's plan to sort this out. Make next year's iPhone Max Plus so big that you have to carry it around in your backpack and can't make a habit of staring at it all the time.

whatshisface 8y ago

>Just give me a damn phone that I can call a car or text friends on, I don't want to or need to spend hours consuming media on a giant shiny screen. But if I get a giant shiny screen foisted on me, I know it's going to happen. Giant screens aren't being foisted on you, you go to the store and pay for them. You could buy a featurephone if you wanted.

wlesieutre 8y ago
I'd like to keep the useful parts of a smartphone without optimizing the addictive parts. Too much to ask apparently.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  I feel like this is a fairly weird argument. Bigger screens are not more addictive by themselves.
  - LeftTurnSignal 8y ago
    Their argument seems to be more venting about Apple not selling a phone they want, rather than smartphone addiction.
- ghostly_s 8y ago
  What is the evidence for your argument that Apple is "optimizing the addictive parts"? Your argument seems to be entirely based on screen size; is there some study that demonstrates a correlation between screen size and 'addictive' qualities?
  - wlesieutre 8y ago
    It's more the 3rd software companies that are optimizing the addictive parts than Apple, because that's how they make money. Having the screen be smaller makes those software products suck enough that I don't like using them for extended periods, it's a defense mechanism against hyper optimized advertising engagement apps. Personally I think that's a feature. My other problem with Apple that they're only interested in the high end $750+ for their phones. The SE was comparatively a steal at $400, and nothing about the new ones is $250 more impressive. Can't be securely held one handed and adds a big screen that I don't want, so I'm not excited about paying more for it.

kara-1234 8y ago

Check out the light phone 2 or the KY-01L, both phone looks pretty awesome. the light phone 2 being just call, text, and the KY-01L having a web browser (though it looks so bad I probably wouldn't use it) Also both those phones have e-ink displays.

briandear 8y ago
So the argument is that his phone is too good and he is sucked in? So a crappier phone is the answer? That’s like saying people drive too much so we should remove the air conditioner and radio. It reminds me of the Colonel Sanders scene in So I Married an Ax Murderer: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMS6tGOACo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMS6tGOACo
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  I don't want to go back down to a feature phone, but if you said "I want to bike more places instead of driving my car everywhere" it would be reasonable to not want to buy an $80,000 luxury sedan that you love to zoom around in. Unfortunately Apple has decided that's the only car they're going to make.
  - ConceptJunkie 8y ago
    Well, it's a good thing there are alternatives to Apple. Their products are grotesquely overpriced anyway.
    - wlesieutre 8y ago
      My main priorities are size, photo quality, and respecting my privacy. I haven't seen a lot of options there, but if someone else is still making a phone that's as good as the iPhone SE I'd love to hear about it.
- nkurz 8y ago
  That’s like saying people drive too much so we should remove the air conditioner and radio. You imply that this is obviously a bad idea, but why? I wouldn't eliminate the idea out of hand. If cars were slightly less comfortable, maybe people would drive slightly less and walk/bike slightly more. Maybe removing temptation by having a phone that doesn't make it as easy to play games is simply a healthier choice. As a parallel, the Amish are a societal group that isn't being overwhelmed by technology. Contrary to popular belief, the Amish don't shun technology, rather they develop rules as a community to try to figure out how to take advantage of the benefits of technology while avoiding the downsides. In most Amish communities, the current rule is that using telephones is fine, but they are not allowed to be in the house. They tried it when they first came out, and decided it wasn't working. The current approach is to put community phones in outside sheds so they aren't too tempting, but can be used when needed: http://amishamerica.com/got-a-quarter/ http://amishamerica.com/got-a-quarter/

briandear 8y ago

You are loosely comparing a large smartphone with tobacco; yet the reality is that an iPhone is more like matches: you can use it to start a campfire, light a stove to cook some kale or use them to smoke crack. It’s your choice what you do with the matches and it certainly isn’t the match manufacturer’s fault people choose to light the crackpipe rather than “healthier” options. If I understand you correctly, it’s the phone fault people are addicted to bad content? The phone is just too easy to use, too high quality that unwitting victims are just defenseless? If we are talking kids, that’s a parent problem, but if we are talking adults, then it’s a problem of self-responsibility. Grocery stores have plenty of ice cream for sale: it’s up to you to not buy and eat it all the time. Grown ups ought to act like it instead of blaming shiny objects of their own obsessions. Adults aren’t victims of their phones.

mikeash 8y ago

Is there actually a link between screen size and addictiveness?

wlesieutre 8y ago
The user experience of scrolling through and viewing lots of content on a 4" screen is honestly not great. Apple, being Apple, sees that as a problem. I consider it a feature because it's easier for me to break away from. Web browsers, youtube, mobile games etc. I don't write emails from my phone unless it's an emergency, but I like having a smartphone because it gives me the option if I need to. A lot of those behaviors, I currently have trouble with at full-size computers. I can absentmindedly browse cat pictures on reddit for a couple of hours. But I have to sit down at my computer to do that, I can't do it comfortably on a 4" phone screen. And I like it that way. Put that comfortable time-wasting computer in my pocket where it follows me everywhere and I'm about 99% certain that I'm have a problem. I'd love to know if someone's studied this more rigorously.

dwighttk 8y ago

Perhaps I just don’t have smartphone addiction, but (if I do) there is something different between this “addiction” and others. There are no withdrawal symptoms for me. I feel the compulsion to pick it up and look at it, but if I don’t have my phone, after reaching for it in my pocket and not finding it a few times I just stop. I don’t feel a need to go find a phone or feel rotten because I don’t have one. And these feelings (that I don’t seem to have anyway) don’t get stronger and stronger until I get back to my phone. I’ve felt withdrawal symptoms for caffeine, and I can only imagine it is worse for stronger drugs. Maybe this addiction is of the same sort but the withdrawal is so slight that I don’t notice?

wlesieutre 8y ago
You're right, I don't think it's as physically addictive as chemical compounds can be. But the time wasting is a very easy hole for me to fall into (he said, arguing with people in HN comments :P). It's not the end of the world, if I end up having problems with it on my next bigger phone I'm more than capable of deleting the problematic apps. I've already done that with Facebook on my SE. Even so, I'm also not excited about the ever climbing costs for new "upgrades" that I don't want. SE was a great size and had the top of the line camera from the 6s. Now if I want the smallest screen and the best camera, the price went from $400 to $1000. Welp.
maemilius 8y ago
I'm in the same boat as you. One thing I've learned over the last few years is that the problem with "phone addition" has more to do with the lack of boredom than any physical effects. The really short version is that there's some science that suggests that periods of boredom increase creativity. By constantly keeping active with your phone, we're losing this "boredom time". Personally, I've made a habit of occasionally just doing nothing every now and then. Put the phone away; don't listen to anything. It's actually great for my commute home (I take a bus). I can just sit/stand and not do anything and just relax for a few minutes on the way home. Personally, I think the biggest problem here isn't that kids are spending a lot of time looking at their screens. It's that parents _aren't_ spending a lot of time engaging with their kids about the content. When a screen is used to distract a child - or anyone,really - instead of engage them, that's where the problem arises.

blacksmith_tb 8y ago

To be fair, for most people, a smartphone may be their only 'personal computer' - sure, they may or may not work a desk job where they use something with a keyboard, but most of the computing they do on their own time will be on that small (if not getting any smaller...) screen. Does that appeal to me? No, not really, I appreciate having a browser in my pocket sometimes, but I don't watch much in the way of videos or even game on my phone. But we're (mostly) technologists here, and I would think that we tend to feel that using computers is generally good / interesting / empowering. Can it also be pathological? Clearly yes. We have some evidence, accident rates increasing[1] as people can't stop checking their feeds for example. So that's a concrete social problem. But I am less sure about the impact on children - we've had several generations which grew up staring at TVs for hours a day, which may not have done us any favors, but it didn't cause the end of civilization either... 1: https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/distracted-driving/underreported https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/distracted-dri...