4 ms·

The evidence for the efficacy of Tamiflu was faked, it doesn’t actually do much if anything. I’d be more interested on how it combines with elderberry syrup, w

The evidence for the efficacy of Tamiflu was faked, it doesn’t actually do much if anything. I’d be more interested on how it combines with elderberry syrup, which ostensibly does actually work.

refurb 8y ago
Wait. Did you just call the efficacy of an FDA approved product “fake” while heaping praise on a compound that’s never gone through a clinical trial?
- gotocake 8y ago
  Well the efficacy of Tamiflu is very questionable, but I’ll admit the “elderberry syrup” thing threw me. Maybe a broken clock thing?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- Falling3 8y ago
  Wait. Did you just assume something hasn't gone through a clinical trial because of how it sounds? There have been trials done of the effectiveness of elderberry syrup.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    What were the results? For that matter, do you have a reference?
    - taf2 8y ago
      as someone else pointed out above: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016
- skolos 8y ago
  Randomized study of the efficacy and safety of oral elderberry extract in the treatment of influenza A and B virus infections. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016 Edit: Symptoms were relieved on average 4 days earlier and use of rescue medication was significantly less in those receiving elderberry extract compared with placebo.
  - refurb 8y ago
    All right, so it was tested in a randomized clinical trial. However it was 30 treated patients, so pretty small. And a trial not actually signed off on by the FDA. Also, I’m surprised symptoms were alleviated 4 days (96 hours) sooner when the Tamiflu trial said total duration of symptoms were 78 hours for the placebo.
    - DenisM 8y ago
      How do you know 30 is small? What number is large, and how do you know that, too?
      - refurb 8y ago
        Xofluza’s phase III was almost 1,900 patients. Generally the size of the trial scales with the potential population and the statistical power you are shooting for.
        Retric 8y ago
        Just to add, it’s also a question of how many studies you can preform and not publish the results. Doing 100 different 30 person studies is vastly easier than doing the same with 2,000 people studies.
    - Alex3917 8y ago
      > All right, so it was tested in a randomized clinical trial. Three or four actually. > Tamiflu trial said total duration of symptoms were 78 hours for the placebo And again, the Tamiflu data was faked. You can read the background on this here: https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7303 https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7303 When the real data was finally FOIA'd or whatever, it became clear that it no longer had even the minimal efficacy that was originally claimed. The way that FDA trials work is that you need two phase III studies showing a drug is more effective than placebo, but you're allowed to conduct unlimited trials that don't find any advantage over placebo without being required to make the data from these other studies public. That's what happened in this case, there were one or more additional studies that showed it wasn't effective, and when you included the data from the additional studies to calculate the overall effect the advantages disappeared. There are several books about this, but since every time I link to books people complain that I'm trying to trick them into reading, here's an Internet article about what happened instead: https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/10/21/major-tamiflu-scam.aspx https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/10/... The main caveat on elderberry, other than the lack of FDA monitored clinical trials, is just that the stuff you're likely to find in your local drug store is Sambucol, which isn't the best quality. But you can go and buy this online that's actually good quality and not that expensive: https://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Black-Elderberry-Syrup/dp/B00F43LEKS/ https://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Black-Elderberry-Syrup/dp/...
mrfusion 8y ago
Do you know what product and what dosage of elderberry syrup is recomeened? I just looked it up. Sounds promising.
- nielsbot 8y ago
  Linked study synopsis says they used 15ml
- Alex3917 8y ago
  A teaspoon of concentrated syrup is enough, you aren't likely to get any additional benefit from eating more than that. But if you did you wouldn't experience any negative side effects, people eat elderberry pies all the time. You just never see them sold commercially because they're such a pain to make that it would be like $200 for a pie, and they don't really taste any better than blueberries. And because of where they grow (edge of streams and ponds) there is a very good chance of falling and hurting yourself while trying to forage them.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Hmm, we used to collect it to make wine -- I wonder if we were unknowingly taking a tonic.
  - jnurmine 8y ago
    Hey, the berries of some species like Sambucus Nigra are poisonous so don't go foraging them just like that. The flowers of S.N. are OK and can be made into elderberry juice. Your local Ikea probably even carries it ("flädersaft") if you want to taste. I don't know if the juice from the flowers has antiviral properties but certainly the taste is better than Tamiflu. It actually tastes (subjectively) delicious.
    - Alex3917 8y ago
      > the berries of some species like Sambucus Nigra are poisonous so don't go foraging them just like that. Well sure you obviously need a field guide to edible plants, otherwise you'd likely poison yourself regardless. And yeah you can't just eat them because the seeds have arsenic, but since that boils off at just over room temperature all you need to do is put them through a food mill to remove the seeds and then sautee the juice for a few min with the exhaust fan on.

The evidence for the efficacy of Tamiflu was faked, it doesn’t actually do much if anything. I’d be more interested on how it combines with elderberry syrup, which ostensibly does actually work.

refurb 8y ago

Wait. Did you just call the efficacy of an FDA approved product “fake” while heaping praise on a compound that’s never gone through a clinical trial?

gotocake 8y ago
Well the efficacy of Tamiflu is very questionable, but I’ll admit the “elderberry syrup” thing threw me. Maybe a broken clock thing?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Falling3 8y ago
Wait. Did you just assume something hasn't gone through a clinical trial because of how it sounds? There have been trials done of the effectiveness of elderberry syrup.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  What were the results? For that matter, do you have a reference?
  - taf2 8y ago
    as someone else pointed out above: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016
skolos 8y ago
Randomized study of the efficacy and safety of oral elderberry extract in the treatment of influenza A and B virus infections. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080016 Edit: Symptoms were relieved on average 4 days earlier and use of rescue medication was significantly less in those receiving elderberry extract compared with placebo.
- refurb 8y ago
  All right, so it was tested in a randomized clinical trial. However it was 30 treated patients, so pretty small. And a trial not actually signed off on by the FDA. Also, I’m surprised symptoms were alleviated 4 days (96 hours) sooner when the Tamiflu trial said total duration of symptoms were 78 hours for the placebo.
  - DenisM 8y ago
    How do you know 30 is small? What number is large, and how do you know that, too?
    - refurb 8y ago
      Xofluza’s phase III was almost 1,900 patients. Generally the size of the trial scales with the potential population and the statistical power you are shooting for.
      - Retric 8y ago
        Just to add, it’s also a question of how many studies you can preform and not publish the results. Doing 100 different 30 person studies is vastly easier than doing the same with 2,000 people studies.
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    > All right, so it was tested in a randomized clinical trial. Three or four actually. > Tamiflu trial said total duration of symptoms were 78 hours for the placebo And again, the Tamiflu data was faked. You can read the background on this here: https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7303 https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7303 When the real data was finally FOIA'd or whatever, it became clear that it no longer had even the minimal efficacy that was originally claimed. The way that FDA trials work is that you need two phase III studies showing a drug is more effective than placebo, but you're allowed to conduct unlimited trials that don't find any advantage over placebo without being required to make the data from these other studies public. That's what happened in this case, there were one or more additional studies that showed it wasn't effective, and when you included the data from the additional studies to calculate the overall effect the advantages disappeared. There are several books about this, but since every time I link to books people complain that I'm trying to trick them into reading, here's an Internet article about what happened instead: https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/10/21/major-tamiflu-scam.aspx https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/10/... The main caveat on elderberry, other than the lack of FDA monitored clinical trials, is just that the stuff you're likely to find in your local drug store is Sambucol, which isn't the best quality. But you can go and buy this online that's actually good quality and not that expensive: https://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Black-Elderberry-Syrup/dp/B00F43LEKS/ https://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Black-Elderberry-Syrup/dp/...

mrfusion 8y ago

Do you know what product and what dosage of elderberry syrup is recomeened? I just looked it up. Sounds promising.

nielsbot 8y ago
Linked study synopsis says they used 15ml
Alex3917 8y ago
A teaspoon of concentrated syrup is enough, you aren't likely to get any additional benefit from eating more than that. But if you did you wouldn't experience any negative side effects, people eat elderberry pies all the time. You just never see them sold commercially because they're such a pain to make that it would be like $200 for a pie, and they don't really taste any better than blueberries. And because of where they grow (edge of streams and ponds) there is a very good chance of falling and hurting yourself while trying to forage them.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Hmm, we used to collect it to make wine -- I wonder if we were unknowingly taking a tonic.
- jnurmine 8y ago
  Hey, the berries of some species like Sambucus Nigra are poisonous so don't go foraging them just like that. The flowers of S.N. are OK and can be made into elderberry juice. Your local Ikea probably even carries it ("flädersaft") if you want to taste. I don't know if the juice from the flowers has antiviral properties but certainly the taste is better than Tamiflu. It actually tastes (subjectively) delicious.
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    > the berries of some species like Sambucus Nigra are poisonous so don't go foraging them just like that. Well sure you obviously need a field guide to edible plants, otherwise you'd likely poison yourself regardless. And yeah you can't just eat them because the seeds have arsenic, but since that boils off at just over room temperature all you need to do is put them through a food mill to remove the seeds and then sautee the juice for a few min with the exhaust fan on.