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Google has sacked dozens over sexual harassment since 2016
- awakeasleep 8y agoI wonder how the PR pitch process to BBC works.
- dilyevsky 8y ago“Hey bud, sent you that pr fluff piece we talked about earlier. Squash sunday? Righto”
- JeremyBanks 8y agodang, please fix this misleading headline.
- Eli_P 8y agoHeadline's a bit late for thanksgiving day, ain't it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eAU0EadxEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eAU0EadxEc
- sp332 8y agoSince 2016. Two years after Rubin was allowed to retire. Still reassuring I think, but not a great headline.
- the-pigeon 8y agoYeah the headline is super misleading. Implies it's recent and all at once, like they'd be ignoring sexual harassment and decided to finally crack down. But the article itself paints the opposite picture.
- ebcode 8y agoYep, definitely click-bait to make it seem like a sweep that just happened. Recommending the following headline instead: "Google has fired 48 employees since 2016 due to sexual harassment".
- dang 8y agoThanks. We've added that bit above.
- mrep 8y agoCan you guys add a misleading title flag which prepends the title with something like [Misleading title] so that users know it does not fully summarize the content of the article? Another article [0] got flagged unjustly in my opinion (unflagged a day later due to my edit I think) because the content was still interesting despite the misleading title. Some type of title vote mechanism with user input sounds even better but I don't know if you guys have the manpower to implement something like that. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18284077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18284077
- dang 8y agoI don't think we'd write software to do that (how would it recognize misleading titles?), and when intervening manually we can simply edit the title to not be misleading. That's what the site guidelines ask submitters to do, and what moderators do when we become aware of the problem. When users have flagged an otherwise good article because of a bad title, we often turn off flags once the title has been fixed. If you notice a misleading title that hasn't been edited, you can always let us know at hn@ycombinator.com.
- mrep 8y agoYes, but by the time you turn off flags for the article in cases like this, it is already to late because your time based de-ranking algorithm has delisted it off the front pages. That's why a flag that simple prepends the title without delisting it would be good.
- bitL 8y agoWhen is Sergey going to be sacked? Wasn't he in some sort of an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate, leading to a separation from his wife, now YouTube CEO?
- randyrand 8y agonot necessarily harassment to be in a relationship with a subordinate. Were there other details?
- sz4kerto 8y agoIt's tricky. Normally you're not supposed to establish intimate relationship at the workplace if there is a clear power difference between the parties. Similarly to how teacher-student relationships are frowned upon (even if both parties are adults). The problem is simple to understand.
- randyrand 8y agoThose are frowned upon primarily to protect the company's profit interest or the honor of the schools grading system. It possibly makes the potential for harassment greater, but it's not necessarily harassment to have a relationship with a subordinate.
- bunderbunder 8y agoEven in the absence of harassment, it's still a clear violation of professional ethics. At the absolute least, it creates a conflict of interest.
- randyrand 8y agoIf 2 people are meant to be together I really don’t think they would or should care. My employers profit interest is such a relatively small concern. Love can be what make life worth living. Love should trump that IMO. It amazes me that someone would argue that you should prevent a relationship because of an employers best interest. Im glad people like Sergey can look past that.
- mlazos 8y agoAs it was mentioned in the article this looks to be a direct response to the NYT article. It’s easy to pretend to care after everyone has found out. I’d be curious to know the details of the allegations against the 48 to gauge whether they were sacrificial lambs at the altar of public relations. Edit: Missed that this was since 2016, makes sacrificial lamb theory less likely.
- JeremyBanks 8y agore-read the first line of the article
- swsieber 8y agoThe article doesn't say wether the sacking was a new policy as of 2016. The real question is if they sacked just as many (well,... just as often) during the time of Andy Rubin.
- puzzle 8y agoI was at Google for quite a few years "during the time of Andy Rubin" and know of at least two terminations for harassment and at least two for having sex at work. There are also cases that could and should have been handled better, but it wasn't all bad.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- nickysielicki 8y ago> The letter was in response to a New York Times report that Android creator Andy Rubin received a $90m exit package despite facing misconduct allegations. Woah, holy shit, a $90M exit package? It's like Bighead in the Silicon Valley TV show, except 4.5x more. The writers for that show picked a crazy number and reality comes along and over-quadruples it. Granted, Bighead did not create Android, or anything, in the TV show. But an severance package of that size is still absolutely ridiculous.
- mscasts 8y agoIf you created Android which runs on the overwhelming majority of phones today, you probably should get a very good exit package deal. Imagine how much wealth Android has generated for Google.
- econner 8y agoSure, but if you're terminated for cause you shouldn't receive anything. The $90 million was for Google to keep the story quiet and to keep Rubin from working for a competitor.
- mscasts 8y ago> Sure, but if you're terminated for cause you shouldn't receive anything. I disagree. It all depends on what the cause is. Regarding sexual harassment which today means any woman can accuse you of that and no questions is asked and you'll get sacked is not a valid reason for not getting any money imo.
- bitL 8y agoHow would they attract a similarly capable person in the future if they withdrew generous compensation? It's like when secret service withdraws protection offer after they received the information they were after; they wouldn't ever recruit anyone in that area again.
- econner 8y ago
- slg 8y ago48 employees over a 2 year span is nothing. How many employees has Google had in that time? It is probably at least 100,000. We are talking about less than 0.05% of the workforce. I don't know what percentage of the general workforce has committed sexual harassment (I have seem the victim rate as high as 20%), but 0.05% is insanely low. Either Google employees commit sexual harassment at an incredibly low rate or they are punished for it at an incredibly low rate. My money is on the latter.
- dawhizkid 8y agoIt’s specifically 48 employees that were at the senior manager level or higher. It’s got to be much higher than that if all levels were included.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Udik 8y agoNo. 48 "including 13 senior managers".
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zipppy 8y ago0.05% is not insanely low for something as specific as sexual harassment. If 1 in 2000 is insanely low, how much would 'low' be, and how much would 'average' be? No environment should deal with whatever you think the average amount of sexual harassment is.
- ars 8y agoThis is in comparison to the real world. It's not intended as some ideal to strive for.
- baud147258 8y ago
- cheeze 8y agoThis is an odd move that doesn't sit very well with me. They waited until the NYT article to actually do anything about it...
- econner 8y agoFrom the story on Andy Rubin, > In Silicon Valley, it is widely known that Mr. Page had dated Marissa Mayer, one of the company’s first engineers who later became chief executive of Yahoo. (Both were single.) Eric Schmidt, Google’s former chief executive, once retained a mistress to work as a company consultant, according to four people with knowledge of the relationship. And Mr. Brin, who along with Mr. Page owns the majority of voting shares in Google’s parent, Alphabet, had a consensual extramarital affair with an employee in 2014, said three employees with knowledge of the relationship. > David C. Drummond, who joined as general counsel in 2002, had an extramarital relationship with Jennifer Blakely, a senior contract manager in the legal department who reported to one of his deputies, she and other Google employees said. They began dating in 2004, discussed having children and had a son in 2007, after which Mr. Drummond disclosed their relationship to the company, she said. I was once talking to a retired guy who told me starting companies is hard because "your employees won't stop having sex with each other and your customers are never satisfied." Seems to be true for not only the employees, but also the founders of these companies and, if that weren't enough, it often strays into sexual harassment. It is good that Google is apparently taking a harder line on this, but they should've done more sooner.
- everdev 8y ago> your employees won't stop having sex with each other Haven't there been studies indicating that our environment and physical proximity to a person greatly factors into our sexual attraction? It is a little paradoxical that companies try to bring everyone together after work for fun and bonding but then discourage workplace relationships. Many lasting relationships I know of share some type of polarity or power dynamic, so it's not too surprising how the recipe is there for consensual intimacy. Harassment, goes without saying, but even consensual relationships with business power dynamics can be a legal and ethical disaster for the parties involved and the business. Might be a good case for remote workforces.
- Uhhrrr 8y agoEmployees having sex with each other sounds like a case against remote workforces to me.
- Endama 8y ago> Carolina Milanesi, an analyst at Creative Strategies in San Francisco, tweeted: "In a normal world this would mean Rubin is done, but tech has not just been forgiving, some tech sees little wrong with this. I work at a pretty large tech company, the number of trainings I have had to go through regarding sexual harassment (especially lately) is impressive. I suspect that such standards may not be as common in small and mid sized companies? I think it is going to take pressure from the VC/funding side to draw clear lines in the sand that even the small guys need to abide by harassment rules.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- LanceH 8y agoOne of the benefits of contracting/consulting is not going to those. Just sign something saying you can be fired for it and you're good to go (well, and don't do that stuff, too).
- gingerbread-man 8y ago[deleted]
- thadjo 8y agoThe title of the piece is extremely misleading... this didn't happen today; it's since 2016. Were that not the case, I'd completely agree with you here.
- gingerbread-man 8y agoWent back and re-read the second line of the article; thank you for clarifying.
- tareqak 8y agoCNBC version: http://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/25/google-ceo-memo-says-48-fired-for-sexual-misconduct.html http://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/25/google-ceo-memo-says-48-fired...
- jnnnthnn 8y agoIt's interesting how the title of the BBC article (and as a matter of fact, this Hacker News post's own title), "Google sacks dozens over sexual harassment", makes it sound like something that just happened, versus stats over the past 2 years that have just been reported as part of a response to a New York Times article.
- gnarbarian 8y agoDon't put your meat where you get your bread.
- mikehines 8y agoThe rich and powerful have always been living the indulging life since the beginning of time. I guess people have just misplaced their faith in seeking the moral compass from Google and its execs.
- RadiconCDF 8y agoWhat's wrong with someone indulging in a consensual relationship that happens because someone is attracted to their power?
- bitL 8y ago...because the rest was told to be good, nice, to play by the rules, defer pleasure and will never reap benefits, will get more work as a reward for good work, might not keep being alive until retirement etc. while those who bypassed those rules have access to whatever/whomever they want (almost) due to natural attraction to power innate to many (often attractive) people. A hyperbolic alternative would be end of civilization, i.e. direct, literally cut-throat conflicts between all groups for anything interesting. Wise rulers in the past mastered the art of discretion so that the regular folks weren't aware and could keep dreaming; now that's almost impossible so seeking a moral guidance from more-less openly immoral leaders is futile and pointless.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoAbsolutely nothing whatsoever. The problem is when this happens on the job. Then, you have a number of problems. Was it genuinely consenting or did the more powerful person pressure the underling into a relationship? Did the underling really earn their promotion or did they get it because they are sleeping with the boss? Can the underling end the relationship and keep their job or would they have to first line up employment elsewhere? Etc.
- MrLeap 8y agoIf you're really asking.. It's hard to distinguish from someone being attracted to not losing their job and feeling pressured into a relationship. What you described in a vacuum is not wrong. Outside of a vacuum it makes the "pin the tail on the sociopath" game harder. Sociopaths and good meaning people are fighting a battle on the fields of eglatarianism right now. Good people and sociopaths are on either side of the trench. There's good people fighting each other even though they're both trying to go through life taking the path of least evil. The sociopaths are saying crazy things they don't even mean because it attracts a fief. As a side effect, this emboldens each side because they're laser focused on the crazy coming from their opponents. The fight will go on longer than it needs to because the issues are muddied by the distracting crazy. This confuses people and makes them lose sight of empowering the good and stymieing the bad. If history is a guide, a new "common sense" will arise that attempts to further protect the innocent and further stymie abusers. Somehow in order to make this bargain a bunch of evil people will get rich. Crazy how it always works.
- RadiconCDF 8y agoIt's dangerous to assume that the mere presence of a power differential implies abuse of power. Women are naturally attracted to men in power in part because of their power - moreso than men are attracted to women in power because of their power - and consensual relationships often arise in the context of this differential. I'm sure I'll get downvoted for pointing out this basic aspect of mammalian female reproductive strategy, but the truth is what it is. Of course companies don't like doing things on an ad hoc basis so I completely understand why they want to institute blanket rules that prohibit all supervisor - employee relationships, however people often forget that just because a rule exists does not mean that all instances of that rule being broken imply genuine wrongdoing.
- sp332 8y agoYou're being downvoted because your comment is irrelevant. They aren't banning that kind of relationship, and he was forced out after a woman complained about his coercive behavior, not an assumption of abuse.
- exodust 8y ago> Carolina Milanesi tweeted: "In a normal world this would mean Rubin is done, but tech has not just been forgiving, some tech sees little wrong with this" Actually in a normal world, there's forgiveness and moving on from minor misconduct events. There's no reason to blacklist someone from ever working again because they had consensual sex with someone they shouldn't have had sex with. As far as we know, there wasn't an official complaint against Rubin, and everything was consensual. That's not a "you're done" crime by any means. That's just normal life, sex, relationships, etc. These twitter nobodies who tweet their final judgements about men who do things they don't approve of, it's like they never watched that old TV show Sex in the City. Life is not perfect. We fumble around with relationships, sex, affairs, and after hours personal and private behavior. If nobody gets hurt, don't bother tweeting your community service mens-morality announcements, it only makes you look out of touch with actual real life.
- throwaway6497 8y agoThis title is so misleading - Google sacked 40 employees over a period of two years.