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The fundamental problem is that these filter lists are maintained by random volunteers, who everyone just assumes are trustworthy. The browser makers avoid the

The fundamental problem is that these filter lists are maintained by random volunteers, who everyone just assumes are trustworthy. The browser makers avoid the issues by having ad-blockers be third-party extensions. The extension makers don't make the filter lists either, they just import from EasyList and similar. It's surprising there arent't more cases of corruption and broken trust. I wish I could get ad-blocking some somebody I can trust. Unfortunately the only way to turn ad-blocking into a business is to charge advertisers to un-block them. That defeats the whole purpose of ad blocking, and is basically blackmail.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
I'm not familiar with it but aren't Apple doing things with built-in adblocking these days? As an aside (but still relating to your comment) I tend to trust my adblocker based on the "many eyeballs" theory and I think the OP and ensuing discussion here is proof that the system mostly works.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  I know Firefox uses Disconnect.me's filter lists, which do have a company backing them. I trust gorhill to make the right decisions when it comes to uBlock Origin and the filter lists it uses, based on his previous track record, his stance on Adblock's "acceptable ads" and his refusal to take donations from anyone. I don't necessarily trust the individual list maintainers[1], but I do trust that gorhill will quickly purge any filter lists that try to put in shady changes. [1] I do trust the maintainer of the DNK list. He's a former colleague of mine, and I know how strictly principled he is in regards to ads and tracking.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    How much is gorhill paid, and by whom, and for how long can he be expected to be The One?
    - KozmoNau7 8y ago
      As fair as I know, nothing and by no one. https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Why-don't-you-accept-donations%3F https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Why-don't-you-accept-... He'll work on it for as long as he feels like it. I've made sure to thank him for his work and signal that I appreciate what he does very much indeed. All in the hope that he will continue the good work. Will the project die at some point? Maybe. Or maybe someone will take over. Maybe another better adblocker will come along. The need is there, as long as ads/trackers exist.
- vbezhenar 8y ago
  I didn't know Apple blocks something? I know that they developed API which allows third-party apps to block anything including apps (if we're talking about iOS).
- akvadrako 8y ago
  They provide ad-blocking APIs but don't have any built-in filters.
aembleton 8y ago
Just block third party JS and Cookies using uMatrix. Then use uBlock origin to remove select divs that are annoying. No need to rely upon third party lists.
- lima 8y ago
  How much manual effort is required to whitelist legitimate third party JS?
  - jfk13 8y ago
    Far too much for this to ever be a solution for 99.999% of web users, who wouldn't have the slightest idea what that even means. A web that by default preys maliciously on naïve users, even if the tiny technically-savvy minority can work around it, is not an acceptable outcome.
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      There's no such thing as a free lunch. Users who refuse to think, work, or pay for quality, are not entitled to personally customized services. That would be an act of charity, which is affordable for the few who are far pooorer or sicker then the mainstream, but isn't sustainable for the masses.
      - leetcrew 8y ago
        i guess this is an unpopular position for some reason, but i'm inclined to agree. in pretty much every part of life you have to choose between effort and price. i can change my own oil or pay someone else to do it. i can cook myself dinner or pay to go out. why do people expect the internet to be different?
        pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Surely you can see how these are different. The imposition of third party tracking and annoying advertising isn't inherent in the medium of the web; it's been/being altered to be that way. Now, if in order to change your own vehicle engine-oil third-parties made it impossible without viewing advertising and giving personal information up would that be fine with you because some blind people who could disguise themselves were still able to access the oil without viewing the advertising and getting tracked? "Well you have to make effort to change your own oil, if you don't want to use a white cane and custom printed dazzle-camouflage prostheses then you should pay for someone else to do it."??
beaconstudios 8y ago
why does ad blocking need to be a business? It seems like an ideal option for a community open source project.
- bluGill 8y ago
  I maintain an open source project. It isn't my day job though. Sometimes I accept pull requests right away, sometimes it takes me months to get to them. One advantage commercial projects CAN have is someone paid to do daily work on it. (Can is key, sometimes that person exists, sometimes that person doesn't get time)
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    an open source project that takes donations/patrons can also do that though.
    - stu_k 8y ago
      There are very few individually maintained OSS projects that would generate enough money from donations. Henry Zhu, who maintains the massively popular Babel transpiler, only gets $2200/month in donations https://www.patreon.com/henryzhu https://www.patreon.com/henryzhu
      - beaconstudios 8y ago
        projects don't get donations just by existing and being used. They need to actively acquire donors/patrons just like businesses acquire customers. Asking for patrons for an individual is also a whole different thing from asking for patrons for a project.
      - Bayart 8y ago
        At least there's clear progress. Things like Patreon are great for reach and engagement. It's a step-up from having to either work at a company directly using the tech, or keeping it as a "side-project" that either eats your life away or lags behind.
simias 8y ago
It seems to me like the potential for abuse is relatively limited. Or maybe I'm just not creative enough. What's the worst that can happen? If a maintainer starts blocking things that shouldn't be then it's easy to complain publicly (as we see in this GH issue) and get the change reverted. If it becomes obvious that a given maintainer doesn't play by the rules then their list will be dropped. If a list fails to block some ads then people will complete it or create a new one. Since as far as I'm aware these block lists can't inject or replace content I can't really imagine how one could take advantage of it in a non-obvious manner.
seth__ 8y ago
You could sell a better ad block list. The free ones are very good but could be improved providing bypasses for ad-blocking-blocking. A button to report a website showing ads to have somebody write new rules would be nice too
SilasX 8y ago
Right, even well-run projects get occasionally compromised by ad-promoting jerks. Have we already forgotten about Admiral? Some ad service made a pull request to exempt his ad service under the pretense of a DMCA claim. Overview: https://adguard.com/en/blog/ad-blocking-is-under-attack/ https://adguard.com/en/blog/ad-blocking-is-under-attack/ Major HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14978228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14978228 . Credit to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14989750 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14989750

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago

I'm not familiar with it but aren't Apple doing things with built-in adblocking these days? As an aside (but still relating to your comment) I tend to trust my adblocker based on the "many eyeballs" theory and I think the OP and ensuing discussion here is proof that the system mostly works.

KozmoNau7 8y ago
I know Firefox uses Disconnect.me's filter lists, which do have a company backing them. I trust gorhill to make the right decisions when it comes to uBlock Origin and the filter lists it uses, based on his previous track record, his stance on Adblock's "acceptable ads" and his refusal to take donations from anyone. I don't necessarily trust the individual list maintainers[1], but I do trust that gorhill will quickly purge any filter lists that try to put in shady changes. [1] I do trust the maintainer of the DNK list. He's a former colleague of mine, and I know how strictly principled he is in regards to ads and tracking.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  How much is gorhill paid, and by whom, and for how long can he be expected to be The One?
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    As fair as I know, nothing and by no one. https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Why-don't-you-accept-donations%3F https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Why-don't-you-accept-... He'll work on it for as long as he feels like it. I've made sure to thank him for his work and signal that I appreciate what he does very much indeed. All in the hope that he will continue the good work. Will the project die at some point? Maybe. Or maybe someone will take over. Maybe another better adblocker will come along. The need is there, as long as ads/trackers exist.
vbezhenar 8y ago
I didn't know Apple blocks something? I know that they developed API which allows third-party apps to block anything including apps (if we're talking about iOS).
akvadrako 8y ago
They provide ad-blocking APIs but don't have any built-in filters.

aembleton 8y ago

Just block third party JS and Cookies using uMatrix. Then use uBlock origin to remove select divs that are annoying. No need to rely upon third party lists.

lima 8y ago
How much manual effort is required to whitelist legitimate third party JS?
- jfk13 8y ago
  Far too much for this to ever be a solution for 99.999% of web users, who wouldn't have the slightest idea what that even means. A web that by default preys maliciously on naïve users, even if the tiny technically-savvy minority can work around it, is not an acceptable outcome.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    There's no such thing as a free lunch. Users who refuse to think, work, or pay for quality, are not entitled to personally customized services. That would be an act of charity, which is affordable for the few who are far pooorer or sicker then the mainstream, but isn't sustainable for the masses.
    - leetcrew 8y ago
      i guess this is an unpopular position for some reason, but i'm inclined to agree. in pretty much every part of life you have to choose between effort and price. i can change my own oil or pay someone else to do it. i can cook myself dinner or pay to go out. why do people expect the internet to be different?
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Surely you can see how these are different. The imposition of third party tracking and annoying advertising isn't inherent in the medium of the web; it's been/being altered to be that way. Now, if in order to change your own vehicle engine-oil third-parties made it impossible without viewing advertising and giving personal information up would that be fine with you because some blind people who could disguise themselves were still able to access the oil without viewing the advertising and getting tracked? "Well you have to make effort to change your own oil, if you don't want to use a white cane and custom printed dazzle-camouflage prostheses then you should pay for someone else to do it."??

beaconstudios 8y ago

why does ad blocking need to be a business? It seems like an ideal option for a community open source project.

bluGill 8y ago
I maintain an open source project. It isn't my day job though. Sometimes I accept pull requests right away, sometimes it takes me months to get to them. One advantage commercial projects CAN have is someone paid to do daily work on it. (Can is key, sometimes that person exists, sometimes that person doesn't get time)
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  an open source project that takes donations/patrons can also do that though.
  - stu_k 8y ago
    There are very few individually maintained OSS projects that would generate enough money from donations. Henry Zhu, who maintains the massively popular Babel transpiler, only gets $2200/month in donations https://www.patreon.com/henryzhu https://www.patreon.com/henryzhu
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      projects don't get donations just by existing and being used. They need to actively acquire donors/patrons just like businesses acquire customers. Asking for patrons for an individual is also a whole different thing from asking for patrons for a project.
    - Bayart 8y ago
      At least there's clear progress. Things like Patreon are great for reach and engagement. It's a step-up from having to either work at a company directly using the tech, or keeping it as a "side-project" that either eats your life away or lags behind.

simias 8y ago

It seems to me like the potential for abuse is relatively limited. Or maybe I'm just not creative enough. What's the worst that can happen? If a maintainer starts blocking things that shouldn't be then it's easy to complain publicly (as we see in this GH issue) and get the change reverted. If it becomes obvious that a given maintainer doesn't play by the rules then their list will be dropped. If a list fails to block some ads then people will complete it or create a new one. Since as far as I'm aware these block lists can't inject or replace content I can't really imagine how one could take advantage of it in a non-obvious manner.

seth__ 8y ago

You could sell a better ad block list. The free ones are very good but could be improved providing bypasses for ad-blocking-blocking. A button to report a website showing ads to have somebody write new rules would be nice too

SilasX 8y ago

Right, even well-run projects get occasionally compromised by ad-promoting jerks. Have we already forgotten about Admiral? Some ad service made a pull request to exempt his ad service under the pretense of a DMCA claim. Overview: https://adguard.com/en/blog/ad-blocking-is-under-attack/ https://adguard.com/en/blog/ad-blocking-is-under-attack/ Major HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14978228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14978228 . Credit to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14989750 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14989750