5 ms·

Nice anecdote. Here's another theory: American kids are being priced out of universities with good CS programs because those universities have burdensome pensio

Nice anecdote. Here's another theory: American kids are being priced out of universities with good CS programs because those universities have burdensome pension programs that can only be paid by importing international students with rich parents.

microcolonel 8y ago
Don't go to university for CS.
dev_dull 8y ago
A story of underfunded pensions coming to a local municipality near all of us.
Daishiman 8y ago
Which countries with decent state-funded universities generally don't have because you've decided that the free market "works" in providing what is basically an essential service for the growth of society.
- pitaj 8y ago
  US colleges used to be affordable before the federal government started pouring money into them with guaranteed loans. It's not a free market, but one distorted by government intervention.
  - apcragg 8y ago
    Oh yeah, all before all that government intervention those land Grant universities really pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
    - dang 8y ago
      Please don't post like this here. If another comment is wrong, feel free to provide correct information, so we all learn something; or simply don't comment. Edit: You've posted uncivilly to HN before. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.
- core-questions 8y ago
  Which countries? Here in Canada our universities are very well funded (relatively speaking) and yet the pensions programs are still screwed from 2008. Never mind the issues with union staff you can't fire despite their rampant ineffectivity...
CodeMage 8y ago
Everyone who focuses mostly on universities is forgetting that you have years of education to go through before getting to the university.
- i_phish_cats 8y ago
  Well, as long as we are speaking in hyperbole, everyone needs to realize that K-12 CS education needs CS teachers, who are disproportionately not those international students who either get cushy jobs in SV or go home.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    You're getting at the root of the problem: teaching in the U.S. is a low-paid, low-status position. Teaching in other countries is a decently-paid, high-status position. This directly translates into job desirability and ability to attract qualified candidates. I had some good teachers growing up, as well as a number of bad ones. The good ones all fell into one of these categories: 1) they were young and idealistic 2) they were doing a sabbatical or gap-two-years before going back to their day job as a children's book author, radio astronomer, or medical student 3) they were an independently-wealthy trust fund kid on a mission to do good. I also had some Google coworkers that taught CS in elementary school; they also fell into the "independently wealthy and semi-retired" category. I come from a family of 3 generations of teachers, but when my starting salary as a computer programmer was within $3K of my mom's retirement salary as a teacher and I made more in 7 years of programming than she did in 39 years of teaching, it's very difficult to justify entering the profession. (My mom also has stories about the cultural differences in how people treat teachers. The parents of her Asian students would bring her gifts, always treat her with respect, and effusively compliment her on the difference she was making in their child's lives. The parents of many - not all - of her native-born students would treat her like a glorified babysitter, yell at her, threaten legal action, and generally take a complete disinterest in their children's lives. You get what you value.)
    - rjsw 8y ago
      A fourth category of good teachers from my childhood was Biology teachers. All of mine had done research but then found that there were not very many jobs for them other than in teaching.
cavanasm 8y ago
The fact that CS programs / education largely start at a college / university level is I think a bigger problem. A growing set of countries have such courses as required curriculum for all students, starting earlier.
notfromhere 8y ago
that's not why tuition costs are out of control
diogenescynic 8y ago
It’s not the pension programs, it’s the administration, executives, and luxury accommodations. College should be cheap considering the number of students to professor ratio. Keep admin costs low and pass that on to students. No where seems to do that anymore though.

microcolonel 8y ago

Don't go to university for CS.

dev_dull 8y ago

A story of underfunded pensions coming to a local municipality near all of us.

Daishiman 8y ago

Which countries with decent state-funded universities generally don't have because you've decided that the free market "works" in providing what is basically an essential service for the growth of society.

pitaj 8y ago
US colleges used to be affordable before the federal government started pouring money into them with guaranteed loans. It's not a free market, but one distorted by government intervention.
- apcragg 8y ago
  Oh yeah, all before all that government intervention those land Grant universities really pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't post like this here. If another comment is wrong, feel free to provide correct information, so we all learn something; or simply don't comment. Edit: You've posted uncivilly to HN before. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.
core-questions 8y ago
Which countries? Here in Canada our universities are very well funded (relatively speaking) and yet the pensions programs are still screwed from 2008. Never mind the issues with union staff you can't fire despite their rampant ineffectivity...

CodeMage 8y ago

Everyone who focuses mostly on universities is forgetting that you have years of education to go through before getting to the university.

i_phish_cats 8y ago
Well, as long as we are speaking in hyperbole, everyone needs to realize that K-12 CS education needs CS teachers, who are disproportionately not those international students who either get cushy jobs in SV or go home.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  You're getting at the root of the problem: teaching in the U.S. is a low-paid, low-status position. Teaching in other countries is a decently-paid, high-status position. This directly translates into job desirability and ability to attract qualified candidates. I had some good teachers growing up, as well as a number of bad ones. The good ones all fell into one of these categories: 1) they were young and idealistic 2) they were doing a sabbatical or gap-two-years before going back to their day job as a children's book author, radio astronomer, or medical student 3) they were an independently-wealthy trust fund kid on a mission to do good. I also had some Google coworkers that taught CS in elementary school; they also fell into the "independently wealthy and semi-retired" category. I come from a family of 3 generations of teachers, but when my starting salary as a computer programmer was within $3K of my mom's retirement salary as a teacher and I made more in 7 years of programming than she did in 39 years of teaching, it's very difficult to justify entering the profession. (My mom also has stories about the cultural differences in how people treat teachers. The parents of her Asian students would bring her gifts, always treat her with respect, and effusively compliment her on the difference she was making in their child's lives. The parents of many - not all - of her native-born students would treat her like a glorified babysitter, yell at her, threaten legal action, and generally take a complete disinterest in their children's lives. You get what you value.)
  - rjsw 8y ago
    A fourth category of good teachers from my childhood was Biology teachers. All of mine had done research but then found that there were not very many jobs for them other than in teaching.

cavanasm 8y ago

The fact that CS programs / education largely start at a college / university level is I think a bigger problem. A growing set of countries have such courses as required curriculum for all students, starting earlier.

notfromhere 8y ago

that's not why tuition costs are out of control

diogenescynic 8y ago

It’s not the pension programs, it’s the administration, executives, and luxury accommodations. College should be cheap considering the number of students to professor ratio. Keep admin costs low and pass that on to students. No where seems to do that anymore though.