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This was something that came up shortly after the Snowden documents were released. I don't remember who made the point (maybe Moxie Marlinspike), but they point
by durkie 8y ago
This was something that came up shortly after the Snowden documents were released. I don't remember who made the point (maybe Moxie Marlinspike), but they pointed out how important it is to be able to break the law. That breaking the law is an vital means of effecting change in the US: kids smoke pot illegally and grow up to be adults that push to legalize it. Gay people are more and more open and successfully push for gay marriage. Etc.
So if you take away people's means of breaking the law (such as auto speed-limited cars), it's actually striking at something really fundamental in the ability of the citizens to push for change or to protest. Almost like we want to have just the right amount of law breaking, although I can't imagine anyone associated with public policy ever adopting this stance.
- ff_ 8y agoIndeed it was Moxie: https://moxie.org/blog/we-should-all-have-something-to-hide/ https://moxie.org/blog/we-should-all-have-something-to-hide/
- mc32 8y agoThat does not work in states like the PRC or Russia. Indeed, in order to live and go on day-to-day, you must break the law. And people do. But, then when the state wants you, they will selectively enforce the law. That's how it works. Let people break the law, who cares, but when we need to arrest them, lo and behold, look, they've broken several laws!
- Fnoord 8y ago"Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre." (If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.) [1] Attributed to Cardinal Richelieu though authenticity is disputed. Anyway, dystopian films containing mass surveillance (such as Fahrenheit 451) also cover the very same practice. [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cardinal_Richelieu https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cardinal_Richelieu
- rexpop 8y agoIs there a word for this specific legal entrapment?
- Vinnl 8y agoRight; it's based on the assumption (which I share) that laws aren't perfect, and that the prime way of finding out whether they are is by people breaking them. The other requirement is the ability to change laws, otherwise this would indeed only enable selective (i.e. seemingly random) enforcement.
- dgzl 8y agoI believe the idea goes "law is created by man, and man is imperfect", or something like that.
- snarfybarfy 8y agoAnd what kind of right would breaking the speed limit push that citizens could possible want to have changed? I am all for hardcoded speed limits. Why sell cars that can go faster than $MaxSpeedInYourCountry ??? Other than that I think you made a good point.
- tertius 8y agoI'm personally for speed limits and adherence to them, but not capping speeds at the speed limits (and I'm not talking about 150 MPH caps that you find in UK/EU) has edge cases that could be argued like overtaking.
- michaelt 8y agoWhy sell cars that can go faster than $MaxSpeedInYourCountry ??? Politicians today have three choices: (1) Set and enforce low speed limits, large numbers of drivers make low-impact complaints. (2) Set and enforce high speed limits, small numbers of parents of dead children make high-impact complaints. (3) Set low speed limits but don't enforce them. Anti-speed campaigners and road users are both satisfied. In my country, politicians tend to go for (3). A switch to (1) would not be without its costs.
- leereeves 8y agoIn response to aggressive use of traffic cameras, people in a number of cities and states have passed propositions banning their use. A switch to (1) might have similar effects, motivating the people to force a switch to (2).
- JoeAltmaier 8y agoAny use of traffic cameras is seen as 'aggressive'. It inevitably results in hundreds of tickets that otherwise wouldn't be written, affecting hundreds of citizens in a way they see as intrusive and 'unfair'. For better or worse.
- 8y ago
- rawoke083600 8y agoMan thats a cool insight !! Never thought about the mechanism like that !
- pytyper2 8y agoCivil disobedience is a real thing, the first example that comes to mind is ignoring laws that require a front license plate, specifically because it reduces the likelihood that your vehicle tag will be caught on camera, those automated ticket system might move on to the next plate if they don't get a scan. I totally agree with you.
- empath75 8y agoThat’s not civil disobedience. In civil disobedience you blatantly and publicly violate an unjust law with the intention of being punished so that the public will be repulsed by the injustice of it. I don’t think anyone is going to cry for you if you get a ticket for not having a front plate. You’re doing it to avoid the consequences of a separate illegal act.
- pytyper2 8y agoI mostly didn't want to drill holes in the bumper.
- golergka 8y agoGay marriage and drug abuse don't kill people. (At least other people, if we jump from weed to opioids). Car speeding does.