5 ms·

Gotta say, kinda crappy. Why do I have a car? I'm wasting so much money on insurance and gas - that would never work out better than renting a shitty place clos

Gotta say, kinda crappy. Why do I have a car? I'm wasting so much money on insurance and gas - that would never work out better than renting a shitty place closer than bussing distance. Accept the commute, even most of the middle class does it anyways so they can live in a bigger house. And it just randomly decided to take tutoring money away even though I answer its math question correctly? Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Was I living well above my means for some reason? Why do I have a kid? That was a rather poor financial planning decision...

felipellrocha 8y ago
Do you live in the US? People are basically forced to own a car here in order to live
- trevyn 8y ago
  That is not at all true if you're anywhere near an urban center.
  - bg4 8y ago
    Have you been to DFW?
  - empath75 8y ago
    > if you're anywhere near an urban center. This isn't true even in most urban centers.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    That's true for a few, specific urban centers in the US - NYC, DC, SF, Seattle, etc. - but there are plenty of urban areas in the US with really poor public transit systems.
    - Regardsyjc 8y ago
      I live in NYC and the deeper you get into the boroughs, the more a car is necessary/helpful, especially with how unreliable the MTA is these days. Also most parts of NYC with good transit, shorter commutes are also probably more expensive rent-wise. There's news articles about how the worst low income areas of NYC don't have good transport options.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Won't you spend the difference on extra rent, though?
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    Name me an 'urban center' with adequate transit where you can live on $1400/mo? Anywhere within 30 miles of Seattle, that's rent.
    - scaasic 8y ago
      Chicago is definitely possible on $1400/mo. Speaking from personal experience.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      Single bedroom rent in the Boston area can be as low as $1200/mo. Two bedroom is around $2k. Split the rent with one other person (yes, even in the single bedroom apartment) and the rest to cover food + transportation + bills.
      - prolikewh0a 8y ago
        Food, basic cell phone plan (necessity in 2018), health insurance, electric, trash, water. That's either having absolutely $0 left over, or not livable on the given $1400/mo wage.
        crooked-v 8y ago
        Don't forget gas and car insurance.
  - sudosteph 8y ago
    Even many urban centers in the US are car-centric, especially some of the more affordable ones. Chicago is probably the only affordable place with decent enough transit to go car-free. NY, Boston, and Seattle have pretty good transit, but the total COL expenses in those places still makes them out of reach for poor people. Anywhere else, and not having car will severely impact your job opportunities and probably your cost of living too (good luck saving money by buying from bulk discount stores when you can't carry most of it back).
- voctor 8y ago
  People do car-sharing in the US? I've seen many countries where cars only drive their driver on the way to work.
52-6F-62 8y ago
You can opt to live closer to work and not pay as much in transportation
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  Still gives you the car loan, lost your job event though...
- grey-area 8y ago
  You can’t opt to ditch the car, which is silly. This simulation feels far too constrained and tied to a narrative to be convincing.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    It’s realistic. There are few places in the US where you can live without one. I’m surprised it even lets you live close enough to walk to work. There are a lot of jobs out there where it’s impossible to live that close.
    - bluGill 8y ago
      There is one house within walking distance to my job: the farmhouse that was here before it was developed. (there used to be two houses, but one was torn down last year when the owners sold). There is an apartment complex a long walk away but there are not enough units there for everybody who works in this office park. Even if you lived in either of the above you would need a car because there are no grocery stores withing walking distance. That is all my choices for living close to work. There is no transit within walking distance either. In short, if I'm to not have a car I need a different job. This situation is not unusual in the US.
    - grey-area 8y ago
      People are very attached to their cars, thus they invent reasons to keep them. If you can walk to work you do not need a car, travel to work is one of the few good reasons to own one.
mikeash 8y ago
Because, “Like more than 50 percent of Americans, your access to public transit is too limited to go totally carless.”
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  50% of Americans aren't also below the poverty line, they can afford to drive.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Alas, being below the poverty line and being able to live in a place where you don’t need a car rarely go together.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    50% of Americans are in poverty or low income though. Probably worse since this data too. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/census-data-half-of-us-poor-or-low-income/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/census-data-half-of-us-poor-or-...
    - shittyadmin 8y ago
      > $45,000 Enough said. We're talking about someone making under $20k here. At $45k you can easily afford a car.
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        $45,000 is the middle-to-lower number, not lower-to-poverty, and it's for a family of four. "Cheap" cars get expensive quick, and living in a low-income area means your insurance rates are way higher as well.
        jki275 8y ago
        You can buy a reliable ten year old Toyota Corolla for less than $2k, it will run for at least another ten years with nothing more than basic maintenance, and the income area you live in doesn't affect liability insurance in any appreciable way as you don't need full coverage on the vehicle (you'd pay more than the cost of the vehicle for it over a few years anyway).
Sileni 8y ago
Yeah, that was kind of the point. You have a car because the alternative is absurd rent or absurd travel times. You lost the tutoring money because that's how the world works. Income streams disappear, without a real reason. This is honestly pretty accurate as simulators go. There might be technical flaws but the feel is there. The actual numbers you control are $40-50 variances, while the costs are an order of magnitude higher. Getting ahead in that scenario is virtually impossible. You might save an extra month's worth of expenses every year, if you budget flawlessly and don't give in to a single indulgence.
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  And it hardly even touches on the development and mental health impacts on a child (or yourself) in those cases—like forgoing school trips or learning opportunities.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  >You lost the tutoring money because that's how the world works. Income streams disappear, without a real reason... Wish I could upvote this bit more. One thing that gets us into trouble financially more than anything else is our belief that revenue streams will not go away. They DO go away. (And often at the most inopportune times.)
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  This certainly seems a lot better than e.g. the Uber simulator which came out a while back. As I recall that one, it was trying to argue that driving for Uber was unsustainable, but the fundamental position was absurd. It started you off living in a not-cheap town with low Uber demand, buying a not-cheap car solely so you could drive for Uber, and pretended that was a fundamental indictment of the business. Nothing here strikes me as that kind of flawed. The details might be arguable, but the broad strokes are completely reasonable. Honestly I'm a bit disturbed to see people leap to "oh, this doesn't count, credit card debt means I lived beyond my means!" Partly because "I screwed up in the past and want to work hard to make up for it" is something a healthy society makes possible, but more urgently because it makes me worry people have no idea how common issues like "oh, I have a $7,000 hospital bill after insurance" really are.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
It explains why you have a car, something like "because the infrastructure is insufficient", you might not agree in your locality but it's reasonable. Note also in order to work you may need to have car. Once when we had no car we took public transport to the opposite side of town to visit the cinema .. it was 2 hours each way because of connections, afterwards we walked a few-hundred metres to the stop and waited in the rain and wind for the bus back, the wait was so long for the connecting bus that we walked the last 2 miles. Fun! We never tried it again. I've done the journey on foot since, only took 1h30m; 15mins by car, parking is free. (In a large UK town.)
- DennisP 8y ago
  Interesting. Back in the 80s I lived in Germany for three years and traveled all over Europe, without ever driving a car. I felt like I could get pretty much anywhere without much hassle. I spent about a month in the U.K. and didn't notice any particular lack compared to the rest. Maybe it's because I was on holiday and had no particular time constraints. When I moved back to the U.S., that's when I needed a car.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
> Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Was I living well above my means for some reason? Are you sure that's not some bias slipping in there?
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  My first thought for that was "huh, sounds pretty plausible for one unlucky medical issue". And that's with insurance or a means-scaled fee. Seeing that leap straight from "credit card debt" to "bought frivolous crap" helps me realize just how little common ground there is on stuff like this, and how much good might be done by sharing examples of how normal, sensible people get in these situations.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Bartweiss 8y ago
> Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Leaving the rest aside, an awful lot of people end up here via medical bills. Even with means-based billing or health insurance, a bad accident or a chronic issue can add up extremely fast. The player might even have had savings that were wiped out paying down a higher bill before the game started, and settled the rest on a credit card. (Yes, most hospitals offer payment plans at better rates than credit cards. No, I don't think all healthcare providers do, and no, they don't necessarily offer any clear way to find out.)
- totony 8y ago
  can't they declare bankrupcy? at this point thats what it is
crooked-v 8y ago
> that would never work out better than renting a shitty place closer than bussing distance I hope you're ready for a 2-hour commute each way. Buses in the US are terrible everywhere outside of some very specific cities. > Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Emergency dental or health care?
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  I've commuted by bus for the past 7 years, about an hour each way. You often have to pick your home based on the bus route though. Even when buying a house that was a major factor I considered. If you're smart about it it's just as viable as living farther out and driving an hour each way every day.

felipellrocha 8y ago

Do you live in the US? People are basically forced to own a car here in order to live

trevyn 8y ago
That is not at all true if you're anywhere near an urban center.
- bg4 8y ago
  Have you been to DFW?
- empath75 8y ago
  > if you're anywhere near an urban center. This isn't true even in most urban centers.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  That's true for a few, specific urban centers in the US - NYC, DC, SF, Seattle, etc. - but there are plenty of urban areas in the US with really poor public transit systems.
  - Regardsyjc 8y ago
    I live in NYC and the deeper you get into the boroughs, the more a car is necessary/helpful, especially with how unreliable the MTA is these days. Also most parts of NYC with good transit, shorter commutes are also probably more expensive rent-wise. There's news articles about how the worst low income areas of NYC don't have good transport options.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 8y ago
  Won't you spend the difference on extra rent, though?
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  Name me an 'urban center' with adequate transit where you can live on $1400/mo? Anywhere within 30 miles of Seattle, that's rent.
  - scaasic 8y ago
    Chicago is definitely possible on $1400/mo. Speaking from personal experience.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Single bedroom rent in the Boston area can be as low as $1200/mo. Two bedroom is around $2k. Split the rent with one other person (yes, even in the single bedroom apartment) and the rest to cover food + transportation + bills.
    - prolikewh0a 8y ago
      Food, basic cell phone plan (necessity in 2018), health insurance, electric, trash, water. That's either having absolutely $0 left over, or not livable on the given $1400/mo wage.
      - crooked-v 8y ago
        Don't forget gas and car insurance.
- sudosteph 8y ago
  Even many urban centers in the US are car-centric, especially some of the more affordable ones. Chicago is probably the only affordable place with decent enough transit to go car-free. NY, Boston, and Seattle have pretty good transit, but the total COL expenses in those places still makes them out of reach for poor people. Anywhere else, and not having car will severely impact your job opportunities and probably your cost of living too (good luck saving money by buying from bulk discount stores when you can't carry most of it back).
voctor 8y ago
People do car-sharing in the US? I've seen many countries where cars only drive their driver on the way to work.

52-6F-62 8y ago

You can opt to live closer to work and not pay as much in transportation

shittyadmin 8y ago
Still gives you the car loan, lost your job event though...
grey-area 8y ago
You can’t opt to ditch the car, which is silly. This simulation feels far too constrained and tied to a narrative to be convincing.
- mikeash 8y ago
  It’s realistic. There are few places in the US where you can live without one. I’m surprised it even lets you live close enough to walk to work. There are a lot of jobs out there where it’s impossible to live that close.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    There is one house within walking distance to my job: the farmhouse that was here before it was developed. (there used to be two houses, but one was torn down last year when the owners sold). There is an apartment complex a long walk away but there are not enough units there for everybody who works in this office park. Even if you lived in either of the above you would need a car because there are no grocery stores withing walking distance. That is all my choices for living close to work. There is no transit within walking distance either. In short, if I'm to not have a car I need a different job. This situation is not unusual in the US.
  - grey-area 8y ago
    People are very attached to their cars, thus they invent reasons to keep them. If you can walk to work you do not need a car, travel to work is one of the few good reasons to own one.

mikeash 8y ago

Because, “Like more than 50 percent of Americans, your access to public transit is too limited to go totally carless.”

shittyadmin 8y ago
50% of Americans aren't also below the poverty line, they can afford to drive.
- mikeash 8y ago
  Alas, being below the poverty line and being able to live in a place where you don’t need a car rarely go together.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  50% of Americans are in poverty or low income though. Probably worse since this data too. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/census-data-half-of-us-poor-or-low-income/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/census-data-half-of-us-poor-or-...
  - shittyadmin 8y ago
    > $45,000 Enough said. We're talking about someone making under $20k here. At $45k you can easily afford a car.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      $45,000 is the middle-to-lower number, not lower-to-poverty, and it's for a family of four. "Cheap" cars get expensive quick, and living in a low-income area means your insurance rates are way higher as well.
      - jki275 8y ago
        You can buy a reliable ten year old Toyota Corolla for less than $2k, it will run for at least another ten years with nothing more than basic maintenance, and the income area you live in doesn't affect liability insurance in any appreciable way as you don't need full coverage on the vehicle (you'd pay more than the cost of the vehicle for it over a few years anyway).

Sileni 8y ago

Yeah, that was kind of the point. You have a car because the alternative is absurd rent or absurd travel times. You lost the tutoring money because that's how the world works. Income streams disappear, without a real reason. This is honestly pretty accurate as simulators go. There might be technical flaws but the feel is there. The actual numbers you control are $40-50 variances, while the costs are an order of magnitude higher. Getting ahead in that scenario is virtually impossible. You might save an extra month's worth of expenses every year, if you budget flawlessly and don't give in to a single indulgence.

52-6F-62 8y ago
And it hardly even touches on the development and mental health impacts on a child (or yourself) in those cases—like forgoing school trips or learning opportunities.
bilbo0s 8y ago
>You lost the tutoring money because that's how the world works. Income streams disappear, without a real reason... Wish I could upvote this bit more. One thing that gets us into trouble financially more than anything else is our belief that revenue streams will not go away. They DO go away. (And often at the most inopportune times.)
Bartweiss 8y ago
This certainly seems a lot better than e.g. the Uber simulator which came out a while back. As I recall that one, it was trying to argue that driving for Uber was unsustainable, but the fundamental position was absurd. It started you off living in a not-cheap town with low Uber demand, buying a not-cheap car solely so you could drive for Uber, and pretended that was a fundamental indictment of the business. Nothing here strikes me as that kind of flawed. The details might be arguable, but the broad strokes are completely reasonable. Honestly I'm a bit disturbed to see people leap to "oh, this doesn't count, credit card debt means I lived beyond my means!" Partly because "I screwed up in the past and want to work hard to make up for it" is something a healthy society makes possible, but more urgently because it makes me worry people have no idea how common issues like "oh, I have a $7,000 hospital bill after insurance" really are.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

It explains why you have a car, something like "because the infrastructure is insufficient", you might not agree in your locality but it's reasonable. Note also in order to work you may need to have car. Once when we had no car we took public transport to the opposite side of town to visit the cinema .. it was 2 hours each way because of connections, afterwards we walked a few-hundred metres to the stop and waited in the rain and wind for the bus back, the wait was so long for the connecting bus that we walked the last 2 miles. Fun! We never tried it again. I've done the journey on foot since, only took 1h30m; 15mins by car, parking is free. (In a large UK town.)

DennisP 8y ago
Interesting. Back in the 80s I lived in Germany for three years and traveled all over Europe, without ever driving a car. I felt like I could get pretty much anywhere without much hassle. I spent about a month in the U.K. and didn't notice any particular lack compared to the rest. Maybe it's because I was on holiday and had no particular time constraints. When I moved back to the U.S., that's when I needed a car.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

> Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Was I living well above my means for some reason? Are you sure that's not some bias slipping in there?

Bartweiss 8y ago
My first thought for that was "huh, sounds pretty plausible for one unlucky medical issue". And that's with insurance or a means-scaled fee. Seeing that leap straight from "credit card debt" to "bought frivolous crap" helps me realize just how little common ground there is on stuff like this, and how much good might be done by sharing examples of how normal, sensible people get in these situations.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Bartweiss 8y ago

> Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Leaving the rest aside, an awful lot of people end up here via medical bills. Even with means-based billing or health insurance, a bad accident or a chronic issue can add up extremely fast. The player might even have had savings that were wiped out paying down a higher bill before the game started, and settled the rest on a credit card. (Yes, most hospitals offer payment plans at better rates than credit cards. No, I don't think all healthcare providers do, and no, they don't necessarily offer any clear way to find out.)

totony 8y ago
can't they declare bankrupcy? at this point thats what it is

crooked-v 8y ago

> that would never work out better than renting a shitty place closer than bussing distance I hope you're ready for a 2-hour commute each way. Buses in the US are terrible everywhere outside of some very specific cities. > Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Emergency dental or health care?

shittyadmin 8y ago
I've commuted by bus for the past 7 years, about an hour each way. You often have to pick your home based on the bus route though. Even when buying a house that was a major factor I considered. If you're smart about it it's just as viable as living farther out and driving an hour each way every day.