6 ms·

Helvetia – A lightweight approach to embed new languages into the host language

74 points by joubert 8y ago

solarkraft 8y ago
Do I understand corectly that this is mostly about syntax transformation? Wouldn't that be quite error-prone or inefficient due to subtle or not so subtle differences between languages?
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  I suspect that's why there are three paths to take - but I think hearing the explanation that it comes along with would help a lot to clarify things. EDIT: I found this YouTube video from 2011 - and the source code has not been updated since 2012. I wonder if there are any newer projects inspired by it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuQ73eYum14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuQ73eYum14
blauditore 8y ago
Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rmlBNhZ9cIJ:scg.unibe.ch/research/helvetia+&cd=1&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=ch http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rmlBNh...
iagooar 8y ago
Swiss, and their original naming of things :D
- fredley 8y ago
  "Helvetia" is how I pronounced Helvetica for a long time as a kid, until someone pointed out to me that there was a c in there.
  - horriblePun 8y ago
    Didn't you c it before?
- passwd 8y ago
  Agree here. People are very proud, national symbols everywhere, local dialects thrive. So why not!
lrenggli 8y ago
I am the author of Helvetia, feel free to ask me anything!
- yhoneycomb 8y ago
  How did you decide on the name? I feel like it’s interesting but too easily confused with Helvetica, which could get annoying
  - lrenggli 8y ago
    We decided on the name because in Switzerland there are 4 official languages spoken and written; but all the infrastructure is shared (the promise of the tool). Helvetia is an alternate name for Switzerland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Switzerland#Helvetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Switzerland#Helvetia.
    - DictumMortuum 8y ago
      In Greece we call Switzerland Helvetia!
    - mar77i 8y ago
      With regard to the product, it could be a hint at mercenary times. Once upon a time it was possible for any army to employ Swiss mercenaries in their rows. Not that I, as an engineer, approve that it's generally a good idea to unite more technologies than absolutely necessary in the same project.
      - mar77i 8y ago
        Oh wait, "languages" in the title are natural languages! I haven't realized that typing the above comment. :D
    - nkrisc 8y ago
      Asking as someone with a very shallow familiarity with Scandinavian languages: is there any connection to the Norwegian 'helvete', often translated to English as 'Hell'? EDIT: Adding this since I found it after asking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHell,_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHell,_Norway Answer seems to be "probably not"
nickpsecurity 8y ago
For anyone confused a bit, here is the author's thesis on Helvetia that goes into a lot more detail: http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/phd/renggli-phd.pdf http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/phd/renggli-phd.pdf
equalunique 8y ago
This is relevant to the rabbit hole I have been going down this afternoon. Time to see if these two can be combined. Like many other scripting languages, Web Prolog lacks some of the capabilities of general purpose programming languages, such as file I/O, access to the OS and a foreign language interface, but since a Prolog Web node is implemented on top of a general purpose programming language it should be straightforward to delegate the need for such operations to this language. A programmer wishing to implement an application that needs to perform e.g. file I/O needs to be knowledgeable in the host language. For some nodes, it probably makes sense to offer an interface between Web Prolog and the host language. In the case of SWI-Prolog, such an interface is obviously already there. Torbj¨orn Lager (2018, June 18). Web Prolog and the Programmable Web. Retrieved from: https://github.com/Web-Prolog/swi-web-prolog/raw/master/book/web-prolog.pdf https://github.com/Web-Prolog/swi-web-prolog/raw/master/book...

74 points by joubert 8y ago

Do I understand corectly that this is mostly about syntax transformation? Wouldn't that be quite error-prone or inefficient due to subtle or not so subtle differences between languages?

vanderZwan 8y ago
I suspect that's why there are three paths to take - but I think hearing the explanation that it comes along with would help a lot to clarify things. EDIT: I found this YouTube video from 2011 - and the source code has not been updated since 2012. I wonder if there are any newer projects inspired by it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuQ73eYum14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuQ73eYum14

blauditore 8y ago

Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rmlBNhZ9cIJ:scg.unibe.ch/research/helvetia+&cd=1&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=ch http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rmlBNh...

iagooar 8y ago

Swiss, and their original naming of things :D

fredley 8y ago
"Helvetia" is how I pronounced Helvetica for a long time as a kid, until someone pointed out to me that there was a c in there.
- horriblePun 8y ago
  Didn't you c it before?
passwd 8y ago
Agree here. People are very proud, national symbols everywhere, local dialects thrive. So why not!

lrenggli 8y ago

I am the author of Helvetia, feel free to ask me anything!

yhoneycomb 8y ago
How did you decide on the name? I feel like it’s interesting but too easily confused with Helvetica, which could get annoying
- lrenggli 8y ago
  We decided on the name because in Switzerland there are 4 official languages spoken and written; but all the infrastructure is shared (the promise of the tool). Helvetia is an alternate name for Switzerland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Switzerland#Helvetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Switzerland#Helvetia.
  - DictumMortuum 8y ago
    In Greece we call Switzerland Helvetia!
  - mar77i 8y ago
    With regard to the product, it could be a hint at mercenary times. Once upon a time it was possible for any army to employ Swiss mercenaries in their rows. Not that I, as an engineer, approve that it's generally a good idea to unite more technologies than absolutely necessary in the same project.
    - mar77i 8y ago
      Oh wait, "languages" in the title are natural languages! I haven't realized that typing the above comment. :D
  - nkrisc 8y ago
    Asking as someone with a very shallow familiarity with Scandinavian languages: is there any connection to the Norwegian 'helvete', often translated to English as 'Hell'? EDIT: Adding this since I found it after asking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHell,_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHell,_Norway Answer seems to be "probably not"

nickpsecurity 8y ago

For anyone confused a bit, here is the author's thesis on Helvetia that goes into a lot more detail: http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/phd/renggli-phd.pdf http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/phd/renggli-phd.pdf

equalunique 8y ago

This is relevant to the rabbit hole I have been going down this afternoon. Time to see if these two can be combined. Like many other scripting languages, Web Prolog lacks some of the capabilities of general purpose programming languages, such as file I/O, access to the OS and a foreign language interface, but since a Prolog Web node is implemented on top of a general purpose programming language it should be straightforward to delegate the need for such operations to this language. A programmer wishing to implement an application that needs to perform e.g. file I/O needs to be knowledgeable in the host language. For some nodes, it probably makes sense to offer an interface between Web Prolog and the host language. In the case of SWI-Prolog, such an interface is obviously already there. Torbj¨orn Lager (2018, June 18). Web Prolog and the Programmable Web. Retrieved from: https://github.com/Web-Prolog/swi-web-prolog/raw/master/book/web-prolog.pdf https://github.com/Web-Prolog/swi-web-prolog/raw/master/book...