5 ms·

This is worrying, HTC aren't exactly doing brilliantly and I'd like to see some more proper headsets, not these gimped smartphones glued to your face.

jakebasile 8y ago
Yeah, it looks like aside from HTC, VR is a race to the bottom. I guess there's just more money in crappy low-rent headsets vs high quality expensive ones.
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  I suppose the ultimate crappy low-rent VR headset will be the smartphone.
- zeusk 8y ago
  Because for the general populace adoption of VR hinges on affordability.
  - outworlder 8y ago
    Yes, but if they are just affordable, but crappy, VR will die again.
    - luckydata 8y ago
      Price is the least of VR's problems. The biggest issue is there's no way to produce an immersive experience without ridiculous space requirements or requiring the user to sit down. I'm extremely skeptical VR will become more than a novelty accessory for gamers and that overall it won't make much of a dent.
      - freehunter 8y ago
        Personally I feel like gaming is the least interesting application for VR/AR/MR. There are plenty of use cases I can imagine where the user does not have to suspend their disbelief to forget they're not actually running, walking, jumping, shooting, ducking, etc. And most of those use cases are in industries where buying a $4000 specialized tool would be considered cheap and easy to get a return on investment. I'm still waiting for "virtual monitors" in AR/VR so my entire office wall becomes a giant screen.
        Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
        > I'm still waiting for "virtual monitors" in AR/VR so my entire office wall becomes a giant screen. VR displays need to be far higher resolution for that to work. Your monitor is likely only 2,000-4,000 pixels wide and doesn't completely fill your vision. Even Vive Pro is only 1,440 pixels wide and is expected to fill your vision. We need a minimum of double the resolution, and would probably need triple or more to make it work well.
        yazaddaruvala 8y ago
        I too am waiting on VR to be good enough for monitor replacements and tv replacement I.e. a personal theatre I can put on while laying in bed.
        freehunter 8y ago
        On the other hand, VR/AR/MR application windows wouldn't necessarily need Retina resolution. I'm imagining a world (as a first step into virtual monitors) where I have a real monitor, but beside it I can have a graph of my server's response time. The application might only be rendering at 480p, but that's good enough. If I need to interact with it, I can move it back to my monitor. In this situation, I read text on my 4k monitor while I put charts and graphs and notifications and iTunes and my time tracker on my wall. That frees up my real screen for the stuff I need a high resolution for, while the low-res stuff is off to the side. If I need to look at it, it will flash to catch my attention anyway, and then I can turn my head.
  - TillE 8y ago
    VR is clearly not ready for general adoption. It's promising, but it's not there yet. The obvious path for a company with resources would be to focus on catering to enthusiasts while R&D gradually develops better, cheaper headsets.
    - nil_pointer 8y ago
      As a standalone device (no gaming PC required) will be a major step forward towards mainstream adoption. Coming next year on Oculus.
    - bootlooped 8y ago
      I've read an opinion piece that theorized that HTC is catering to businesses (mainly VR-gaming cafes), so not quite enthusiasts, but the same idea of higher price lower volume. The evidence being that stuff like the Vive Pro and wireless headset are really expensive, but the purchase makes sense if you're making money off them. I can't recall the source. Another piece of evidence would be that "Enterprise" is featured prominently on the Vive website.
  - criddell 8y ago
    I haven't tried Magic Leap yet, but Oculus, Vive and Playstation VR all deliver a weak experience. The headsets are uncomfortable, they make a lot of people sick, and they are anti-social (ie you look goofy using it and they are isolating). The headset could be $50 with an included game and I still wouldn't buy it. I don't think VR will really take off until it gets to the sunglasses form-factor phase.
    - koiz 8y ago
      When I read comments like this I just don't believe it, I haven't seen anyone get sick since the CV1/Vive came out. The DK2 totally had those issues and the PSVR is a sub standard experience but hey each to his own I guess.
      - berberous 8y ago
        I had a Vive. In a game running well, where the only movement was my own (i.e. walking around my room), I did not get motion sick. However, when anything glitched (frame drops, tracking errors, etc.), I'd get sick. Even worse, any game with artificial motion (such as walking with the trackpad), would make me SUPER sick very fast. Teleporting was generally OK, but still not great. I say this as someone that thinks VR will be a huge success, but it's definitely still early. Unlike OP, I think gen 2 alone is going to make huge strides in making VR closer to mainstream.
        criddell 8y ago
        I think VR will be a huge success, but not as long as it's something that you have to strap to your face. I think the glasses form factor is key. A great application could accelerate that.
        mrguyorama 8y ago
        I think some people are just so susceptible to motion sickness that they will never be able to enjoy it. Contrary to your experience, minutes after setting up my Vive for the first time I was comfortable floating around with true 6 DOF for my simulated character, with near zero quease. I don't think there is any sort of "advances" that can prevent some people from being uncomfortable with "virtual" motion. It is unnatural and that's not going to change.
  - rocky1138 8y ago
    I don't care about the adoption of VR for the general populace. I only care about it for suiting my, and other power users', needs. The concern is that, like many other engineering-first projects, we'll be left in the dark on the very tech we helped to propel to success.
- metalliqaz 8y ago
  They are MUCH cheaper -- especially when graphics card is factored in -- and don't require being tethered to a computer. Most consumers just aren't going to put up with that.
- stupidcar 8y ago
  It really speaks to the disgustingly privileged and cloistered attitude of many tech geeks that they would consider a $400 consumer electronics device like the Oculus Quest cheap. And that they would rather see mainstream VR crash and burn, or dwindle to a tiny, dying niche, than make even the slightest concession to people who can't or won't spent $2k+ to indulge in the latest fad. What a joke.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    It’s not cheap. It’s not anywhere near high quality enough for it to be anything but a fad for the masses either. It needs to be good before it can be cheap.
  - tokyodude 8y ago
    So many things here. $400 too expensive? PS4 cost $350-$500 and has sold over 80 million units. What VR fans want is VR so good it knocks your socks off and is therefore as or more compelling than a video game console. What the cheap VR sets get you is a basically a mostly useless viewmaster that's interesting for 30 minutes and then put in a drawer somewhere. I'd argue the cheap VR sets damage VR more than help as the experiences are so poor people try them and are unimpressed and write off VR as not interesting where as that's far less true with the top devices with full 6DOF input controllers and room scale VR. There's a minimum spec for great VR. We aren't there yet. Features needed. Higher res, wider field of view, mouth and eye tracking for facial features, full hand tracking (gloves), lighter headsets, and I'd add in feet tracking as well having played some feet tracking games and seeing how useful they are.
    - the_clarence 8y ago
      Have you tried Oculus Go? The experience is far from poor. I myself was a diehard htc vive fanboy and I love the Oculus Go. Can't wait for the Quest.
    - aseipp 8y ago
      > $400 too expensive? PS4 cost $350-$500 and has sold over 80 million units. The PlayStation brand has roughly two decades of solid hits and great sales, and cultural credit. People know what they're getting into. VR has no such claim to fame (outside of fantasy scifi) and nowhere near the same volume to push costs down. Not to mention, the volume of units sold has actually nothing to do with the point the OP was making, which was that it's still expensive. And I hate to break it to you, but: the PS4 -- or any $400 gadget -- is still expensive for many people, even in places like America. But it's not expensive for privileged tech users like you and I.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  I think it's actually the opposite. The way most people use VR globally is at arcades. And then the cost of the equipment is secondary to employees and real estate. If we had acceptable quality for $10k / set, I imagine we would see a lot more competition and growth.
T-A 8y ago
Also in today's news: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-hmd-odyssey-vr-headset-specs,37963.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-hmd-odyssey-vr-hea...
- IronWolve 8y ago
  Their version of the microsoft MR was a tad nicer due to higher pixel count. Now they double the count and the new version is same price, old version is 150 bux cheaper. This sounds sweet. I was waiting for the 4/8k models to come out before buying a vr headset, but I might get this upgraded version at this price. Played warthunder with a rift and it was a blast, but wanted better resolution before I bought one. Watching movies was ok, but the screen door effect needed fixed. This has anti-screendoor, might be worth it...
  - sp332 8y ago
    Note it has the same number of pixels. They might be nicer pixels but the new "PPI" number is still plain wrong.
- vokep 8y ago
  Aw man, I've got the odyssey and its nice but less screen door effect would be cool...but thats IT...seemingly no other improvement for the odyssey+?
trixie_ 8y ago
I have a Vive and I don't think HTC or others realize how close they are to making VR compelling enough for home users. It really just needs a bit more resolution, better FOV, and wireless ability and I would be using mine all the time..
- dahdum 8y ago
  Vive has a wireless adapter now, and Vive Pro bumped the resolution from 1st gen, so two of your points are in progress. Still not all that friendly to setup and use. I think only consoles will be able to raise market penetration short to mid term.
  - Jaruzel 8y ago
    I have a PSVR, and I hardly use it. Reason? The cabling arrangement is a mess, there's no built-in audio (so unless you have wireless headphones that's another annoying cable), the PS Camera has to be in exactly the right position vertically to track you properly and you also can't be more than a few feet away from it. To be honest, PSVR is only really usable on a regular basis if you had a dedicated PS4 that's set up in a room just for VR.
- Woofles 8y ago
  All of those things and taking away the requirement to own a $1k gaming rig would make it a much better experience than what it is now. I currently own the original Vive with the TPCAST (SFFPC doesn't allow for the extra PCI slot) and it's a pain to set up and there aren't many good games with the depth of a standard "flat" game. I actually think PSVR is the most likely to hit it off since the PS4+PSVR combo is much cheaper consumer friendly option.
  - gameswithgo 8y ago
    increasing the pixel count is going to mean needing a $2k gaming rig : /
- jarcane 8y ago
  Honestly, I liked my time with the Vive, but what finally sold me was Windows MR. For only 300€ I bought an Acer WMR headset with better res than the Vive, no funky sensor setup required, and no fiddle adjustments needed to get it to focus with my eyesight. I put it on and it just works. If the Samsung WMR ultra set were available here I’d happily have bought that instead, but they stupidly refuse to sell it in Europe. I really think MS might be on to something here, I only hope the fixed specs don’t make it too unappealing for manufacturers to support.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
hahamrfunnyguy 8y ago
I bought an Occulus Rift and returned it because I kept loosing tracking. Occulus support told me that that my setup wasn't supported (TB3 Laptop with an eGPU). I am looking forward to the Quest, which supossedly is going to be higher res than the Rift and use tracking on the headset. The janky hardware and wires hanging off all over the place is one problem, the second is the quality of the games. Judging by what I played, there just isn't a lot of depth. A less expensive headset means more users and a larger market for VR games. This will lead to more in-depth gaming experiences.

jakebasile 8y ago

Yeah, it looks like aside from HTC, VR is a race to the bottom. I guess there's just more money in crappy low-rent headsets vs high quality expensive ones.

Apocryphon 8y ago
I suppose the ultimate crappy low-rent VR headset will be the smartphone.
zeusk 8y ago
Because for the general populace adoption of VR hinges on affordability.
- outworlder 8y ago
  Yes, but if they are just affordable, but crappy, VR will die again.
  - luckydata 8y ago
    Price is the least of VR's problems. The biggest issue is there's no way to produce an immersive experience without ridiculous space requirements or requiring the user to sit down. I'm extremely skeptical VR will become more than a novelty accessory for gamers and that overall it won't make much of a dent.
    - freehunter 8y ago
      Personally I feel like gaming is the least interesting application for VR/AR/MR. There are plenty of use cases I can imagine where the user does not have to suspend their disbelief to forget they're not actually running, walking, jumping, shooting, ducking, etc. And most of those use cases are in industries where buying a $4000 specialized tool would be considered cheap and easy to get a return on investment. I'm still waiting for "virtual monitors" in AR/VR so my entire office wall becomes a giant screen.
      - Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
        > I'm still waiting for "virtual monitors" in AR/VR so my entire office wall becomes a giant screen. VR displays need to be far higher resolution for that to work. Your monitor is likely only 2,000-4,000 pixels wide and doesn't completely fill your vision. Even Vive Pro is only 1,440 pixels wide and is expected to fill your vision. We need a minimum of double the resolution, and would probably need triple or more to make it work well.
        yazaddaruvala 8y ago
        I too am waiting on VR to be good enough for monitor replacements and tv replacement I.e. a personal theatre I can put on while laying in bed.
        freehunter 8y ago
        On the other hand, VR/AR/MR application windows wouldn't necessarily need Retina resolution. I'm imagining a world (as a first step into virtual monitors) where I have a real monitor, but beside it I can have a graph of my server's response time. The application might only be rendering at 480p, but that's good enough. If I need to interact with it, I can move it back to my monitor. In this situation, I read text on my 4k monitor while I put charts and graphs and notifications and iTunes and my time tracker on my wall. That frees up my real screen for the stuff I need a high resolution for, while the low-res stuff is off to the side. If I need to look at it, it will flash to catch my attention anyway, and then I can turn my head.
- TillE 8y ago
  VR is clearly not ready for general adoption. It's promising, but it's not there yet. The obvious path for a company with resources would be to focus on catering to enthusiasts while R&D gradually develops better, cheaper headsets.
  - nil_pointer 8y ago
    As a standalone device (no gaming PC required) will be a major step forward towards mainstream adoption. Coming next year on Oculus.
  - bootlooped 8y ago
    I've read an opinion piece that theorized that HTC is catering to businesses (mainly VR-gaming cafes), so not quite enthusiasts, but the same idea of higher price lower volume. The evidence being that stuff like the Vive Pro and wireless headset are really expensive, but the purchase makes sense if you're making money off them. I can't recall the source. Another piece of evidence would be that "Enterprise" is featured prominently on the Vive website.
- criddell 8y ago
  I haven't tried Magic Leap yet, but Oculus, Vive and Playstation VR all deliver a weak experience. The headsets are uncomfortable, they make a lot of people sick, and they are anti-social (ie you look goofy using it and they are isolating). The headset could be $50 with an included game and I still wouldn't buy it. I don't think VR will really take off until it gets to the sunglasses form-factor phase.
  - koiz 8y ago
    When I read comments like this I just don't believe it, I haven't seen anyone get sick since the CV1/Vive came out. The DK2 totally had those issues and the PSVR is a sub standard experience but hey each to his own I guess.
    - berberous 8y ago
      I had a Vive. In a game running well, where the only movement was my own (i.e. walking around my room), I did not get motion sick. However, when anything glitched (frame drops, tracking errors, etc.), I'd get sick. Even worse, any game with artificial motion (such as walking with the trackpad), would make me SUPER sick very fast. Teleporting was generally OK, but still not great. I say this as someone that thinks VR will be a huge success, but it's definitely still early. Unlike OP, I think gen 2 alone is going to make huge strides in making VR closer to mainstream.
      - criddell 8y ago
        I think VR will be a huge success, but not as long as it's something that you have to strap to your face. I think the glasses form factor is key. A great application could accelerate that.
      - mrguyorama 8y ago
        I think some people are just so susceptible to motion sickness that they will never be able to enjoy it. Contrary to your experience, minutes after setting up my Vive for the first time I was comfortable floating around with true 6 DOF for my simulated character, with near zero quease. I don't think there is any sort of "advances" that can prevent some people from being uncomfortable with "virtual" motion. It is unnatural and that's not going to change.
- rocky1138 8y ago
  I don't care about the adoption of VR for the general populace. I only care about it for suiting my, and other power users', needs. The concern is that, like many other engineering-first projects, we'll be left in the dark on the very tech we helped to propel to success.
metalliqaz 8y ago
They are MUCH cheaper -- especially when graphics card is factored in -- and don't require being tethered to a computer. Most consumers just aren't going to put up with that.
stupidcar 8y ago
It really speaks to the disgustingly privileged and cloistered attitude of many tech geeks that they would consider a $400 consumer electronics device like the Oculus Quest cheap. And that they would rather see mainstream VR crash and burn, or dwindle to a tiny, dying niche, than make even the slightest concession to people who can't or won't spent $2k+ to indulge in the latest fad. What a joke.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  It’s not cheap. It’s not anywhere near high quality enough for it to be anything but a fad for the masses either. It needs to be good before it can be cheap.
- tokyodude 8y ago
  So many things here. $400 too expensive? PS4 cost $350-$500 and has sold over 80 million units. What VR fans want is VR so good it knocks your socks off and is therefore as or more compelling than a video game console. What the cheap VR sets get you is a basically a mostly useless viewmaster that's interesting for 30 minutes and then put in a drawer somewhere. I'd argue the cheap VR sets damage VR more than help as the experiences are so poor people try them and are unimpressed and write off VR as not interesting where as that's far less true with the top devices with full 6DOF input controllers and room scale VR. There's a minimum spec for great VR. We aren't there yet. Features needed. Higher res, wider field of view, mouth and eye tracking for facial features, full hand tracking (gloves), lighter headsets, and I'd add in feet tracking as well having played some feet tracking games and seeing how useful they are.
  - the_clarence 8y ago
    Have you tried Oculus Go? The experience is far from poor. I myself was a diehard htc vive fanboy and I love the Oculus Go. Can't wait for the Quest.
  - aseipp 8y ago
    > $400 too expensive? PS4 cost $350-$500 and has sold over 80 million units. The PlayStation brand has roughly two decades of solid hits and great sales, and cultural credit. People know what they're getting into. VR has no such claim to fame (outside of fantasy scifi) and nowhere near the same volume to push costs down. Not to mention, the volume of units sold has actually nothing to do with the point the OP was making, which was that it's still expensive. And I hate to break it to you, but: the PS4 -- or any $400 gadget -- is still expensive for many people, even in places like America. But it's not expensive for privileged tech users like you and I.
akvadrako 8y ago
I think it's actually the opposite. The way most people use VR globally is at arcades. And then the cost of the equipment is secondary to employees and real estate. If we had acceptable quality for $10k / set, I imagine we would see a lot more competition and growth.

T-A 8y ago

Also in today's news: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-hmd-odyssey-vr-headset-specs,37963.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-hmd-odyssey-vr-hea...

IronWolve 8y ago
Their version of the microsoft MR was a tad nicer due to higher pixel count. Now they double the count and the new version is same price, old version is 150 bux cheaper. This sounds sweet. I was waiting for the 4/8k models to come out before buying a vr headset, but I might get this upgraded version at this price. Played warthunder with a rift and it was a blast, but wanted better resolution before I bought one. Watching movies was ok, but the screen door effect needed fixed. This has anti-screendoor, might be worth it...
- sp332 8y ago
  Note it has the same number of pixels. They might be nicer pixels but the new "PPI" number is still plain wrong.
vokep 8y ago
Aw man, I've got the odyssey and its nice but less screen door effect would be cool...but thats IT...seemingly no other improvement for the odyssey+?

trixie_ 8y ago

I have a Vive and I don't think HTC or others realize how close they are to making VR compelling enough for home users. It really just needs a bit more resolution, better FOV, and wireless ability and I would be using mine all the time..

dahdum 8y ago
Vive has a wireless adapter now, and Vive Pro bumped the resolution from 1st gen, so two of your points are in progress. Still not all that friendly to setup and use. I think only consoles will be able to raise market penetration short to mid term.
- Jaruzel 8y ago
  I have a PSVR, and I hardly use it. Reason? The cabling arrangement is a mess, there's no built-in audio (so unless you have wireless headphones that's another annoying cable), the PS Camera has to be in exactly the right position vertically to track you properly and you also can't be more than a few feet away from it. To be honest, PSVR is only really usable on a regular basis if you had a dedicated PS4 that's set up in a room just for VR.
Woofles 8y ago
All of those things and taking away the requirement to own a $1k gaming rig would make it a much better experience than what it is now. I currently own the original Vive with the TPCAST (SFFPC doesn't allow for the extra PCI slot) and it's a pain to set up and there aren't many good games with the depth of a standard "flat" game. I actually think PSVR is the most likely to hit it off since the PS4+PSVR combo is much cheaper consumer friendly option.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  increasing the pixel count is going to mean needing a $2k gaming rig : /
jarcane 8y ago
Honestly, I liked my time with the Vive, but what finally sold me was Windows MR. For only 300€ I bought an Acer WMR headset with better res than the Vive, no funky sensor setup required, and no fiddle adjustments needed to get it to focus with my eyesight. I put it on and it just works. If the Samsung WMR ultra set were available here I’d happily have bought that instead, but they stupidly refuse to sell it in Europe. I really think MS might be on to something here, I only hope the fixed specs don’t make it too unappealing for manufacturers to support.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

hahamrfunnyguy 8y ago

I bought an Occulus Rift and returned it because I kept loosing tracking. Occulus support told me that that my setup wasn't supported (TB3 Laptop with an eGPU). I am looking forward to the Quest, which supossedly is going to be higher res than the Rift and use tracking on the headset. The janky hardware and wires hanging off all over the place is one problem, the second is the quality of the games. Judging by what I played, there just isn't a lot of depth. A less expensive headset means more users and a larger market for VR games. This will lead to more in-depth gaming experiences.