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All is nice and well... until you need to code with a screen-reader. That kind of sucks, as those IDEs obviously use some non-native controls and the only thing

All is nice and well... until you need to code with a screen-reader. That kind of sucks, as those IDEs obviously use some non-native controls and the only thing the screen-reader can see is a blank window with no usable content. I was once very excited about such projects, but I'm not anymore because I can't really use them in any way. With normal languages like Java etc. You can just use a different, accessible IDE (i.e. Eclipse instead of Net Beans). That creates some problems, especially when working with a team, but in the end, it can be done if you try hard enough. Smalltalk and smalltalky things that try to be GUI only, no command line at all, are completely hopeless, though.

qwerty456127 8y ago
That's an important point but lack of screen-readers (or whatever) support is forgivable at the early stages of a project that gives something conceptually interesting in exchange. I just hope they won't forget about it later when it gets clear that the project stabilizes and its future becomes clear.
- thisrod 8y ago
  Smalltalk has been around since the 1970s, though. Given the things the community is interested in, schools, video, sound, and so on, it's odd that accessibility never came up.
  - User23 8y ago
    Most sighted persons really don't like thinking about blindness. It's not because they are bad people, it's just deeply scary and relatively uncommon. This is an area where Apple really doesn't get enough credit. VoiceOver has absolutely revolutionized blind persons' ability to interact with consumer tech. For more technically demanding applications, the Unix philosophy is inherently open to being made accessible. https://pjb.com.au/blin/ https://pjb.com.au/blin/. As an aside, I personally really enjoy accessible websites, because they focus on clear communication in the presence of a serious obstacle, rather than assaulting the visual cortex with attention grabbing nonsense. Edit: Also one could argue that ed(1)¹ is the pinnacle of accessibility. ¹https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
    - mwcampbell 8y ago
      Here's a blind programmer who actually did argue, in all seriousness, that ed is the pinnacle of accessibility: http://eklhad.net/philosophy.html http://eklhad.net/philosophy.html
      - User23 8y ago
        Great read. Thanks!
        qwerty456127 8y ago
        Isn't it fascinating how posting a seemingly-useless comment that is guaranteed to be down-voted can provoke people to post interesting things in response? :-)
e12e 8y ago
A valid concern. There seems to be some work in the area, but maybe too experimental? http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/education/lazaro-project/ http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/education/laza... https://github.com/LazaroProject/Lazaro https://github.com/LazaroProject/Lazaro
mwcampbell 8y ago
The more inaccessible UIs like this I encounter, the more I'm convinced that the future of accessibility is going to have to be something based on machine learning, that can work with nothing more than the pixels on the screen, as opposed to today's screen readers which have to be spoon-fed information through an accessibility API. Think OCR plus some kind of shape recognition to identify common UI elements.

qwerty456127 8y ago

That's an important point but lack of screen-readers (or whatever) support is forgivable at the early stages of a project that gives something conceptually interesting in exchange. I just hope they won't forget about it later when it gets clear that the project stabilizes and its future becomes clear.

thisrod 8y ago
Smalltalk has been around since the 1970s, though. Given the things the community is interested in, schools, video, sound, and so on, it's odd that accessibility never came up.
- User23 8y ago
  Most sighted persons really don't like thinking about blindness. It's not because they are bad people, it's just deeply scary and relatively uncommon. This is an area where Apple really doesn't get enough credit. VoiceOver has absolutely revolutionized blind persons' ability to interact with consumer tech. For more technically demanding applications, the Unix philosophy is inherently open to being made accessible. https://pjb.com.au/blin/ https://pjb.com.au/blin/. As an aside, I personally really enjoy accessible websites, because they focus on clear communication in the presence of a serious obstacle, rather than assaulting the visual cortex with attention grabbing nonsense. Edit: Also one could argue that ed(1)¹ is the pinnacle of accessibility. ¹https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
  - mwcampbell 8y ago
    Here's a blind programmer who actually did argue, in all seriousness, that ed is the pinnacle of accessibility: http://eklhad.net/philosophy.html http://eklhad.net/philosophy.html
    - User23 8y ago
      Great read. Thanks!
      - qwerty456127 8y ago
        Isn't it fascinating how posting a seemingly-useless comment that is guaranteed to be down-voted can provoke people to post interesting things in response? :-)

e12e 8y ago

A valid concern. There seems to be some work in the area, but maybe too experimental? http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/education/lazaro-project/ http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/education/laza... https://github.com/LazaroProject/Lazaro https://github.com/LazaroProject/Lazaro

mwcampbell 8y ago

The more inaccessible UIs like this I encounter, the more I'm convinced that the future of accessibility is going to have to be something based on machine learning, that can work with nothing more than the pixels on the screen, as opposed to today's screen readers which have to be spoon-fed information through an accessibility API. Think OCR plus some kind of shape recognition to identify common UI elements.