4 ms·

Once again, I think it absolutely is racism and bigotry when they talk about Chinese money. Canada knows the solution to this "problem": higher property taxes

by mcny 8y ago

Once again, I think it absolutely is racism and bigotry when they talk about Chinese money. Canada knows the solution to this "problem": higher property taxes for everyone. No, not just got absent owners. Use this money to fund infrastructure spending. Help increase supply of housing. The Chinese don't have unlimited monies. They can't print the US dollar... Of course, home owners don't want to pay higher taxes. They don't want property process to fall. A bunch of hypocrites if you ask me.

rtkwe 8y ago
There's a big difference between a housing market that's exploding because of a lot of people moving to the area and one that's being largely propped up by outside purchases that don't get occupied. In a normal housing boom when a property is bought someone comes along with the money and spends money in other areas which boost the rest of the economy too. In the case of properties bought for investment/capital control dodging it all flows into a single area with less of the add on benefits.
api 8y ago
It has nothing to do with racism. If this were a flood of German or British money distorting the market it would be the same.
- mcny 8y ago
  But if they're buying houses and paying property taxes but not using any of the services their taxes pay for, aren't they doing us a service? It sounds like property taxes are unsustainably low the more I hear arguments against the Chinese money. Disclaimer: I'm not of Chinese descent and I'm definitely poor so none of this benefits me. I'm just trying to understand what people are saying because it all sounds like a bunch of dog whistling where people say something but mean something else. I just want us to be open and honest with our bigotry if it is bigotry or greed if it is greed.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    The expense of housing comes from the people outside buying up all the open supply at high prices, so it's hard to afford a house. Also the supply of houses is lower, making apartments even more dear. Next many of the houses aren't lived in, so local area businesses don't have enough customers and close (grocery, clothing, restaurants).
    - mcny 8y ago
      > Also the supply of houses is lower, making apartments even more dear. Please don't buy into this nonsense. Your sibling comment brought in some actual numbers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18269257 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18269257 BC has relatively low property taxes for the area. But you can't raise them now or all the current homeowners would revolt as their taxes goes to unsustainable levels. Nearby seattle's king county has a tax rate of %1, texas has rates around %2, while saanich is %0.4. The UK doesn't even really have property taxes, just council taxes which charge flat rates for things like garbage collection AFAIK. http://www.saanich.ca/assets/Community/Documents/Property~Tax/Tax%20Rate%20Chart%20-%202018.pdf http://www.saanich.ca/assets/Community/Documents/Property~Ta... The property taxes are too low to be sustainable. Progress always causes some problem for some people but we must go forward with it. Raise property taxes for everyone. > Also the supply of houses is lower, making apartments even more dear. Next many of the houses aren't lived in, so local area businesses don't have enough customers and close (grocery, clothing, restaurants). What kind of hot garbage is this? Isn't the whole point of a market economy that we don't have to centrally manage grocery stores (and indeed that it asserts we cannot do this efficiently in the long run)? Of course, planning has its place. Higher taxes in itself does not solve any problem. We still need to plan city expansion and not just build new suburbs because "ZOMG the Chinese will pay for it". That's not what I am saying but I am saying that existing home owners have been benefiting in a manner that I consider unsustainable and we should thank the Chinese elite for exposing our double standards. We live in a democracy and as such we have an obligation to think beyond our immediate short term benefit when we vote. Vote for sustainable tax structures. I am not saying property taxes should be 50% of appraisal value. In fact, I think we should aggressively cut salaries and wages in the public sector (especially at the top). But lets not delude ourselves by pretending we can think "smart". The extra money raised from increased property taxes (which should damper home prices somewhat already) must be spent in a very disciplined and planned way to increase capacity (which will further decrease home prices). I think we can do it but we can only do it if we want to do it. There will be a little pain but there's simply no way around it I can think of that leaves our moral fiber not too frayed.
- Finnucane 8y ago
  On the east coast and in Europe a lot of it is Russian and Middle Eastern oil money. Vancouver just happens to be convenient for Chines buyers.
- msie 8y ago
  Can’t discount racism here. Asians stick out more than Germans or British people.
  - didibus 8y ago
    The article kept saying that the reason Vancouver is such a target for Chinese wealth is because of how welcoming the city is. Even the conclusion was that still with the tax increase, there is no nicer place for rich Chinese foreigners to come too. So it didn't seem to imply major issues of racism. It seems to me its more of a logical stance. People can buy real estate and move to Vancouver, but it should be done in a way where the foreigner's arrival creates opportunities and a better life for the locals. All relationship has to be win/win. Laundering money, leaving homes empty, not investing in the economy appart from real estate, these don't sound very beneficial. It seems its not even a big tax benefit due to loopholes. Also, the measures put in place target all foreigner equally, Germans and British included. You'll have to do more than argue the racist stance here, at least to convince me. Are there still racists in Vancouver? Yes (thoug in my own experience, a lot less then in most other western cities). Are they relevant to the topic at hand, I believe not at all.
    - mcny 8y ago
      > Laundering money, leaving homes empty, not investing in the economy appart from real estate, these don't sound very beneficial. It seems its not even a big tax benefit due to loopholes. I already proposed a very simple solution: raise real estate taxes to sustainable levels. Use the money to cover infrastructure costs. I don't see why it is so difficult.
      - jbay808 8y ago
        Remember that we're dealing with property that for most long-term residents was bought fairly inexpensively a couple decades ago, on fairly low incomes, and it's ballooned in value recently. Real estate taxes are low as a percentage but high in terms of dollars, for those residents who live and work in the city. Incomes have not risen accordingly. For the independently wealthy, sure another few percent on a recent purchase is no problem. But for families that are already struggling to pay the huge tax (in dollar terms, not percentage, due to the rising value of their home) it would force them to sell and leave the city. It also would get passed on to renters. This is different than the bay area issue, where property taxes are locked down and the city is generating massive wealth due to the tech industry, floating real estate prices. Vancouver is not generating the wealth to support that kind of tax base that it needs.
didibus 8y ago
I think most Vancouverites would prefer the home buyers would actually immigrate here and move into their purchased homes, and start being taxed Canadian income on their foreign businesses and assets, while becoming a Canadian citizen. And eventually have them integrate into our culture and values, while maintaining their cultural heritage. Now I don't have data, but I feel this would be true. It is for me. And if so, that also would clearly demonstrate to me this isn't a racial issue. Personally, this seems much more like a financial issue. The Vancouver locals are seeing their cost of living go up, and their income go down. That's the problem, as simple as that.
- jbay808 8y ago
  As a local, I would love this. They're mostly great people, and could contribute so much to the city as new Canadians. But by just buying property without actually living here, it causes lots of damage. I know several children of astronaut families, with their fathers making fortunes abroad at companies like Foxconn and others. If they moved here and brought their knowledge and skills, they could create fantastic jobs and industries. Maybe someday they'll retire here. Their kids falling in love with Vancouver and convincing them to make it a home rather than just an investment are my greatest hope for the city's future.

by mcny 8y ago

rtkwe 8y ago

There's a big difference between a housing market that's exploding because of a lot of people moving to the area and one that's being largely propped up by outside purchases that don't get occupied. In a normal housing boom when a property is bought someone comes along with the money and spends money in other areas which boost the rest of the economy too. In the case of properties bought for investment/capital control dodging it all flows into a single area with less of the add on benefits.

api 8y ago

It has nothing to do with racism. If this were a flood of German or British money distorting the market it would be the same.

mcny 8y ago
But if they're buying houses and paying property taxes but not using any of the services their taxes pay for, aren't they doing us a service? It sounds like property taxes are unsustainably low the more I hear arguments against the Chinese money. Disclaimer: I'm not of Chinese descent and I'm definitely poor so none of this benefits me. I'm just trying to understand what people are saying because it all sounds like a bunch of dog whistling where people say something but mean something else. I just want us to be open and honest with our bigotry if it is bigotry or greed if it is greed.
- Latteland 8y ago
  The expense of housing comes from the people outside buying up all the open supply at high prices, so it's hard to afford a house. Also the supply of houses is lower, making apartments even more dear. Next many of the houses aren't lived in, so local area businesses don't have enough customers and close (grocery, clothing, restaurants).
  - mcny 8y ago
    > Also the supply of houses is lower, making apartments even more dear. Please don't buy into this nonsense. Your sibling comment brought in some actual numbers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18269257 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18269257 BC has relatively low property taxes for the area. But you can't raise them now or all the current homeowners would revolt as their taxes goes to unsustainable levels. Nearby seattle's king county has a tax rate of %1, texas has rates around %2, while saanich is %0.4. The UK doesn't even really have property taxes, just council taxes which charge flat rates for things like garbage collection AFAIK. http://www.saanich.ca/assets/Community/Documents/Property~Tax/Tax%20Rate%20Chart%20-%202018.pdf http://www.saanich.ca/assets/Community/Documents/Property~Ta... The property taxes are too low to be sustainable. Progress always causes some problem for some people but we must go forward with it. Raise property taxes for everyone. > Also the supply of houses is lower, making apartments even more dear. Next many of the houses aren't lived in, so local area businesses don't have enough customers and close (grocery, clothing, restaurants). What kind of hot garbage is this? Isn't the whole point of a market economy that we don't have to centrally manage grocery stores (and indeed that it asserts we cannot do this efficiently in the long run)? Of course, planning has its place. Higher taxes in itself does not solve any problem. We still need to plan city expansion and not just build new suburbs because "ZOMG the Chinese will pay for it". That's not what I am saying but I am saying that existing home owners have been benefiting in a manner that I consider unsustainable and we should thank the Chinese elite for exposing our double standards. We live in a democracy and as such we have an obligation to think beyond our immediate short term benefit when we vote. Vote for sustainable tax structures. I am not saying property taxes should be 50% of appraisal value. In fact, I think we should aggressively cut salaries and wages in the public sector (especially at the top). But lets not delude ourselves by pretending we can think "smart". The extra money raised from increased property taxes (which should damper home prices somewhat already) must be spent in a very disciplined and planned way to increase capacity (which will further decrease home prices). I think we can do it but we can only do it if we want to do it. There will be a little pain but there's simply no way around it I can think of that leaves our moral fiber not too frayed.
Finnucane 8y ago
On the east coast and in Europe a lot of it is Russian and Middle Eastern oil money. Vancouver just happens to be convenient for Chines buyers.
msie 8y ago
Can’t discount racism here. Asians stick out more than Germans or British people.
- didibus 8y ago
  The article kept saying that the reason Vancouver is such a target for Chinese wealth is because of how welcoming the city is. Even the conclusion was that still with the tax increase, there is no nicer place for rich Chinese foreigners to come too. So it didn't seem to imply major issues of racism. It seems to me its more of a logical stance. People can buy real estate and move to Vancouver, but it should be done in a way where the foreigner's arrival creates opportunities and a better life for the locals. All relationship has to be win/win. Laundering money, leaving homes empty, not investing in the economy appart from real estate, these don't sound very beneficial. It seems its not even a big tax benefit due to loopholes. Also, the measures put in place target all foreigner equally, Germans and British included. You'll have to do more than argue the racist stance here, at least to convince me. Are there still racists in Vancouver? Yes (thoug in my own experience, a lot less then in most other western cities). Are they relevant to the topic at hand, I believe not at all.
  - mcny 8y ago
    > Laundering money, leaving homes empty, not investing in the economy appart from real estate, these don't sound very beneficial. It seems its not even a big tax benefit due to loopholes. I already proposed a very simple solution: raise real estate taxes to sustainable levels. Use the money to cover infrastructure costs. I don't see why it is so difficult.
    - jbay808 8y ago
      Remember that we're dealing with property that for most long-term residents was bought fairly inexpensively a couple decades ago, on fairly low incomes, and it's ballooned in value recently. Real estate taxes are low as a percentage but high in terms of dollars, for those residents who live and work in the city. Incomes have not risen accordingly. For the independently wealthy, sure another few percent on a recent purchase is no problem. But for families that are already struggling to pay the huge tax (in dollar terms, not percentage, due to the rising value of their home) it would force them to sell and leave the city. It also would get passed on to renters. This is different than the bay area issue, where property taxes are locked down and the city is generating massive wealth due to the tech industry, floating real estate prices. Vancouver is not generating the wealth to support that kind of tax base that it needs.

didibus 8y ago

I think most Vancouverites would prefer the home buyers would actually immigrate here and move into their purchased homes, and start being taxed Canadian income on their foreign businesses and assets, while becoming a Canadian citizen. And eventually have them integrate into our culture and values, while maintaining their cultural heritage. Now I don't have data, but I feel this would be true. It is for me. And if so, that also would clearly demonstrate to me this isn't a racial issue. Personally, this seems much more like a financial issue. The Vancouver locals are seeing their cost of living go up, and their income go down. That's the problem, as simple as that.

jbay808 8y ago
As a local, I would love this. They're mostly great people, and could contribute so much to the city as new Canadians. But by just buying property without actually living here, it causes lots of damage. I know several children of astronaut families, with their fathers making fortunes abroad at companies like Foxconn and others. If they moved here and brought their knowledge and skills, they could create fantastic jobs and industries. Maybe someday they'll retire here. Their kids falling in love with Vancouver and convincing them to make it a home rather than just an investment are my greatest hope for the city's future.