7 ms·

Ask HN: How to tell quickly if someone is professional?

• starpilot 16y ago
  Doesn't gossip, unless it's harmless teasing. Does not do anything to spite another colleague, only interested in getting things done. Doesn't let his ego get in the way. If his proposal is passed for another team members, he still pitches in as much as ever. Likewise, he doesn't walk all over people who gave losing ideas, and listens to them as much as he would have. Moves discussions along to make decisions, understands that conversations are not productive unless something new is decided upon. He should move like a shark, but not in an evil way: keep swimming, or sink.
  • chairface 16y ago
    That seems to be more of a complete description of being professional than an indicator - I presume the OP is looking for things that indicate a person will do these things before they actually do them.
• LeBlanc 16y ago
  I assume this is going to be done in an interview. One thing you could try is to see how the person handles constructive criticism. Try to get them engaged in a discussion about what they did wrong and how they could do better in the future. Pick something you have actual knowledge of so you can better tell if they are BSing you. This can be difficult to do in an interview because you often don't know anything about the person. However, even if you have them pick an example of a screw-up from their past, you should be able to get a general sense of whether or not they try to be accountable for their actions. A bad sign would be if they pick an example where they didn't actually screw up or explain their failure as completely out of their control.
• kingsidharth 16y ago
  Ships!
• zackola 16y ago
  I like asking people when the last time they've done irreparable harm to data was. (deleting a database table, formatting something they shouldn't have, etc...) Those who say never are liars. Those who have agony in their faces as they answer but can't tell me what they've done to prevent the situation from occurring in the future or those who don't care are pretty unprofessional. Those who regale us with heroic stories of accepting the blame for their mistakes, fixing it in the best way possible and putting safeguards in place to minimize the possibility of it occurring again are pros in my book.
  • stcredzero 16y ago
    I've accidentally truncated a database table in a dev environment, bringing all sorts of testing and development to a halt and making my manger's life miserable for a few days. (Due to some really bad menu design in an admin tool. Instead of a right-click for "Renaming" a column, there should have been an indication that a table truncate would be happening in there somewhere.) I would never have agony in my face about it, perhaps because the event wasn't "irreparable." The database was just reloaded from production. My first answer to your question would be "never" because the event really wasn't consequential. In fact, I'd question just how "professionally" run an organization is if a data deletion event is of dire consequence. Anything important should be backed up and easily restorable. Some decades back, someone did a study of companies that had some disaster happen. (Fire, flood, etc...) Of the ones that lost their data, only something like 3% of them survived the next year. Digital data is the most easily backed up corporate asset and probably the most important. (To keep it from happening again, I'd use a different tool entirely, if given a choice. In that case, I wasn't!)
    • zackola 16y ago
      A very professional answer! You'd be surprised at the number of organizations and individuals that don't have some sort of backup solution in place, so the question will also filter out those. Even if you have backups or the data isn't 'irreparably' lost I'd imagine you agonized a bit from causing your coworkers a few days of pain, or if you need to restore from backups, perhaps a few hours of downtime? I guess I should change my question from using the word irreparably.
• jrockway 16y ago
  I doubt punctuality is a strong indicator of anything other than how reliable the public transportation system is.
  • usrusrusr 16y ago
    No. Public transport might be unreliable, but if unreliable it is unreliable it is so in a regular way. If you value others time, you can use that regularity and be punctual in spite of unreliable, traffic, public trsnaport etc.
    • jrockway 16y ago
      The problem is that I value my own time more than I value other people's time.
      • usrusrusr 16y ago
        So do I but, 1. I carry a Kindle with me. I read a lot and I can do it as well waiting in a office/lounge/Airport as at my bed. 2. I don't value my time more than collective time of four people waiting for me to start a meeting/meetup/lunch.
        • fapi1974 16y ago
          This reminds me of an idea I had for a product: place value on your and your colleagues time by creating a market for it. The market runs in the calendaring application - you are allocated a certain amount of everyone's time to take for meetings. If you want or need more than your allocation, you have to trade for it. That way you are forced to invite only the people you really need, it quickly becomes obvious whose time is most important, the overall amount of time spent in meetings is limited, and people become cognizant of the "value" of others' time. It could be built as an outlook plugin, even.
          • drewp 16y ago
            no link handy, but a similar thing was tried with email before. You had to offer points for someone to read your mail, and readers would natutally read the highest-paying emails first. The results sounded cool, similar to what you were predicting-- everyone got more conservative with others' email-redaing time. With the email version, you "traded points" by reading (or replying? I forget) your mail. I'd love to try your calendar version!
• skullsplitter 16y ago
  One of my personal metrics for low resolution professionalism judgement is spin off of the classic "wtf's/min" standard for judging code quality. My own unit is "Yes's/min". I find that when I'm explaining something to an individual who responds with too many "Yes's/min", that individual is usually (of course not always) not appreciating the nuances of the topic being discussed. Having an alarmingly high amount of certainty around a new or just introduced topic, I find, usually implies a lack of professionalism.
  • Kaizyn 16y ago
    Your heuristic will fail you when you are dealing with people who are smarter than you are. It is awfully hard to gauge what topics are actually new to someone during a discussion unless you ask them or they outright tell you.
    • skullsplitter 16y ago
      Yep, thats why I only use it as a low-res heuristic. Theres no real substitute for spending time with and individual and really getting to know them.
    • pavel_lishin 16y ago
      It's probably a better algorithm when discussing multiple topics. Nobody is an expert in everything.
• atirip 16y ago
  Put him in uncomfortable situation and tell him to do something you expect he really loathes, something what just sometimes "needs to be done, no matter what". If he balks or talks too much, he's not a professional. Example? Give photographer a video camera and say you have an vision of some cheesy shot (look at clientsfromhell.net for ideas) and see what get's delivered.
  • RockyMcNuts 16y ago
    I'm not sure who is more of a professional, the web developer who gives the client their requested BLINK tags and Comic Sans, or the one who tries to dissuade the client and avoids work from similar clients.
    • duck 16y ago
      Easy answer - one who tries to dissuade the client. A professional will not always do what is asked, but that doesn't mean they don't do what is right.
      • stcredzero 16y ago
        There are two senses of the word "professional" here. Some people are professional like doctors or engineers. They will not always do exactly what is asked of them, because there are real-world consequences. Sometimes they will educate the client instead. Some people are "professional" like prostitutes. They will pretty much do anything enthusiastically, so long as they are paid. More value is created by the first sense of the word, IMO.
    • atirip 16y ago
      It depends. What I have learned is that every professional can and will give advice and derail bad developments. This is not a problem at all. The problem is that sometimes you absolutely need to do something and then you need somebody who understands you and just does. On most cases the world is grey, there is no wrong, no right. What I described in my previous posting is just a test, can he walk the walk. BTW. I have to ask, is "BLINK tags and Comic Sans" wrong on every occasion, on every target group, on every situation, on every web page, absolutely no matter what? Because if you agree that there can be one in a billion situation where "BLINK tags and Comic Sans" are acceptable or even good thing to do, then ... you are not professional :-)
• techbio 16y ago
  This is a valuable question, but the replies are going awry of what draws me to the question. What if all you have to go on is a 'reply-to' email and their first and last name? Not a complete list, but fishing for suggestions: Context--they sent you a business related email, and appear roughly 'professional' to you, but you want to make sure. Their message/website/page/example project. You be the judge. Do they reply to their contact form? Is their contact information available and current? LinkedIn, github, any other free, populous site membership--what is their public face?
  • Kaizyn 16y ago
    Being part of the social web is not an indicator of professionalism. However, you may learn about someone's professionalism based on what they have online if they participate. Keep in mind many good professionals have life outside of their work and don't have the time or interest in open source projects or giving free advice on sites like stack overflow.
    • techbio 16y ago
      You are absolutely right. But being a 'professional' is more than just having a good personality. Where do they hang their shingle? What do they associate with?
    • pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      >Being part of the social web is not an indicator of professionalism. Not at all? I'm not saying you need to be tweeting what you had for lunch or anything but having some presence on the social web is probably a good indicator in a broad swathe of fields. For example if I'm after a graphic designer and they're on LinkedIn|Facebook|Twitter or somesuch then it's an indicator that they're clued in with modern advertising, likely to have their finger more on the pulse, likely to be happy corresponding via the 'net, etc..
      • varjag 16y ago
        No, not at all. Not any more than having a phone number or email address. Maybe even less.
• gte910h 16y ago
  Professionalism is the practice of getting things done in a respectful manner. That's going to be hard to detect with an indicator.
• edw519 16y ago
  Demonstrated Performance (the only indicator that really matters)
  • techbio 16y ago
    Anybody notice that OP asked "How to tell quickly...?"
    • tomjen3 16y ago
      Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to look up online - or to call somebody who knew and have worked with that person before.
      • techbio 16y ago
        Professional recommendations are formalities.
      • lsc 16y ago
        eh, I think that following references rarely results in an accurate picture, especially following up on references that the applicant gives you. Have you ever given a bad reference? I've given lots of references, and I've checked lots of references. I've never given a negative reference, and I've never gotten a negative reference when I checked someone else. This is for two reasons. 1. when the applicant lists references, s/he is going to list people who think positively of him or her, and 2. if some random guy calls up and asks for a reference for someone who used to work for you, you have a relationship with your ex-employee. You have no relationship with this new company. You have nothing to gain (and possibly significant liabilities) from handing out a negative reference.
        • anthonyb 16y ago
          If you do some research and cold-call their previous employers/clients, you'll usually find out if the relationship was a negative experience for them. If you get a couple of these, and they've come to that conclusion independently, then you have your answer.
• M1573RMU74710N 16y ago
  It's not possible. No matter how professional someone appears there's always a chance they're a complete flake in reality. The best you can do is determine quickly that someone is not a professional, and the basis for that is going to have to be a variety of factors. There's no one thing that will serve as an accurate litmus test all around. Punctuality is a good start, but I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Personally, I think it's way over-rated. For something like an interview, punctuality is important as a sign of respect and for practical reasons... If you interview someone, you should consider punctuality but also bear in mind that crap happens. I once had an interview and I got stuck in the subway, where there are no phone signals. Who's to say if you are writing off a brilliant worker due to bad luck. In terms of normal punctuality for work, I think it's vastly over-rated. Places generally expect you to be slightly early for work, so I don't see anything wrong with the assumption that you will sometimes be a little late. As long as everyone gets to work around the same time, everyone does their work,everyone works their hours, and people are on time for the truly important stuff....I don't see the problem with even regular "lateness". Anyway. I digress... If anything I think how they are dressed is a better indication than punctuality, but that also has problems. You have to look at a lot of things...I would worry less about whether they are a fit for some hypothetical objective mold of "professional" and worry more about how they fit with what you think is important, and how they fit with your culture. All that matters to me is competence, work ethic, and how they fit in with the group....I'll take that over some nebulous concept of "professionalism" any day.
• superk 16y ago
  If it's a superficial analysis (ie interview), then punctuality, dress and preparation on their part (investigation prior to the meeting) is valid. If they haven't inquired about the dress code, then they should assume it's formal. If you have a minute to do a slightly deeper analysis then Google is your friend: how do they present themselves on social networks, do they have a blog, have they commented in forums (do they troll) have they posted code (usually a goldmine). If the profession is technological and they have no web presence whatsoever, that's usually a red flag in itself.
• edge17 16y ago
  You can often tell more about a person by their questions than by their answers
• sp4rki 16y ago
  By your definition of professional I don't understand why you want punctuality. Three months into the last job I had, I told the company: "I'm more productive when I'm more productive. I'm not going to abuse off course, but I'm not getting here at 8am sharp every day." They said I could come at any time I wanted, or telecommute if I wanted, as long as I got things done. One time I spent 4 days in the office only surfacing from my desk for food and smokes because someone screwed a deadline. I made 2 weeks wort of work on three days. I got a bonus, an all paid weekend retreat, and they payed me back the amount of redbull and coffee I had. Why do you care if someone is in through the door of the office at 9am or at 12pm as long as their work doesn't suffer from it? In the case of meetings and the such I do understand the need to have everyone be punctual though, and that should be stated before hand. If you have a meeting, be there on time, if nothing time sensitive is on the calendar, then let people do what they find more productive, within reason off course.
  • jamesteow 16y ago
    I'm not punctual at the start of work. If work starts at 9:30am, I'll usually be in by 10:10 or so. I couldn't care less if people come in at 11 am, just as along as they get their work done. However, if one is late to a meeting (internal or client side... or even the job interview), then I think that is a red flag, specifically if there is no good reason to do so or if they don't give a heads up.
    • sp4rki 16y ago
      Ahh off course I agree 100%. Be on time whenever being late means wasting someone else's time. The rest of the time just get the job done.
      • switch007 16y ago
        "of course". "Off course" is something entirely different :)
        • sp4rki 16y ago
• spython 16y ago
  For me, a designer is professional if he tells me "if you add one more thing in the menu, it won't work" or "remove that 'more' link after each paragraph" instead of "you should really use another tone of blue" or "I don't like the font you are using". I have no idea about programming, but I guess a professional in that field would be arguing about the software architecture, instead of what to use - php or ruby. So generally, professionals are people who help you achieve whatever goal you have, instead of arguing what tools to use.
• lhnz 16y ago
  I don't know if I agree with the word professional. It does signal things like: wearing a suit, talking the talk, playing politics well, turning up on time, etc... The only things that are important to me are that the person is honest, a hard-worker, intelligent, a clear communicator and has common sense.
• erikstarck 16y ago
  Seth Godin has a good point about professionalism. Being professional is doing the same thing and getting the same result over and over. These days more often than not this is not what you're looking for. You're looking for the fresh angle, the different point of view, the purple cow. You're looking for passion. For love. These are two words you seldom see together with professionalism. EDIT: the word "amateur" has the same roots as "amore" and literally means "love what you do".
  • japherwocky 16y ago
    Just to quibble a bit.. really, if you're looking to hire a professional contractor, you don't want fresh or creative. You want someone who can deliver to a spec on time and on budget. A joke among architects is to call plumbers|electricians|framers "creative". You don't want purple cow plumbing, and that goes for a lot of professions. ;)
    • TeMPOraL 16y ago
      With all respect to people who do them, I think that those kinds of proffessions should be ultimately done by machines and technology. People are good at creativity and generating new ideas; machines are good at repetition and precision.
• pmorici 16y ago
  Depends on what you mean by "punctuality" if you mean arriving at work at the same time every day then I would say you are dead wrong. If on the other hand you mean being respectful of others time and not being late for explicitly scheduled events or calling ahead if you will be, then that may be true.
• coffee 16y ago
  My biggest indicator has always been, "do they do what they say they'll do?" If they want to meet for coffee and offer to buy you that coffee in exchange for your time, do they do this without you prompting them? If you end up buying your own coffee, and they simply forgot, do they acknowledge it? If they say they will email/phone you by a certain time, do they do this? If not, and they eventually do get to you, do they acknowledge/apologize for not keeping their word? For me, to quickly find out, it always come down to these little things. Sure, people forget to call/email/buy coffee all the time, that's acceptable. But, do they take accountability for that slip? Do they take responsibility for it without you prompting them? If the little things are handled professionally, I've never had an experience (yet) where the big things aren't...
  • japherwocky 16y ago
    Definitely this, for me. Does someone talk about doing things or do things? Also wanted to say: talking about meeting for coffee went delightfully meta there, considering your username.
• gallerytungsten 16y ago
  Check out their track record. Observe them, listen to them. Do they give you a vibe of understated competence and confidence? Or do they relentlessly hype themselves and speak in vague buzzwords? Ask questions, dig deep. "Drill down" into their area of alleged expertise. Do they answer your questions easily and with insight? Or do they engage in an avoidance strategy? Keep poking like this, the answer will become obvious.
• techbio 16y ago
  Takes one to know one.
• jorangreef 16y ago
  In my mind, a professional displays: 1. Discretion. 2. The quiet soft-spoken voice of reason (and incentive). 3. The weight of wisdom. 4. A higher sense of purpose other than being liked. 5. A way of saying much with few words (the "genius of compression"). 6. The ability to discern between "the idea" and "the packaging". 7. A great fear of ever saying in private what they would never say in public. 8. An aversion to announcing things in advance. Rather than being "on time", a professional seeks to be "before time". Rather than trying to "get to the point", the professional "starts with the point". A professional is more concerned with examining and testing and adjusting motives, than learning methods. Above all, a professional gives value to "voice". The idea that playing a violin well will eventually result in greater resonance, that every note contributes to the tone of the instrument. The professional chooses to produce true notes as much as possible, knowing that false notes played in practice will eventually come to light in the character of the instrument. A professional understands why orchestra conductors insist on punctuality, the first and second and third order effects thereof. How "bottomless wonders spring from simple rules... repeated without end." - Benoit Mandelbrot. Ask a professional why they chose to take a particular course of action, and they will be able to tell you "why". Professionals are rational, and their rationality is proactively forthcoming. Professionals phrase things in the positive. Most of these characteristics seem to come down to "words" and "voice" and "reasons".
  • wccrawford 16y ago
    Careful, you just described me, and my bosses characterized me as 'abrupt' for years, and they valued 'people skills' more than my ability to keep their software and servers running. (Yes, both.) We survived it, but I'm not sure they would have if they'd gotten their 'people skills' person instead of me. That's not to say I haven't improved in that department over the years, but I still start conversations with the meat instead of 'How was your vacation?' (Yeah, I got scolded for that once.) It's not even that I didn't care about their vacation, it's that I had very important work matters to deal with (I was at work!) and they come first.
    • Dylanlacey 16y ago
      I've had similar problems before, where a focus on fixing things was derided because it wasn't "Friendly". I've actually noticed a correlation between how much people value superficial interactions, and how valuable that person is compared to others in their field. That is, if a manager is more concerned with "Hi, how are you"'s then "The server is literally on fire, I need to get into the server room to put it out", they are much more likely to be incompetant then the average manager, and know it, which is why they're trying to buff their 'soft' skills. This only applies to superficial reactions, not stuff like "When you attack people as your opening sentence, it makes them defensive" style stuff. If it actually matters, it's not what I'm talking about.
• jonsen 16y ago
  Software Engineering Code of Ethics and Professional Practice: http://www.acm.org/about/se-code http://www.acm.org/about/se-code
• csomar 16y ago
  "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know" Be careful of those who talks a lot trying to prove you that they are professionals. Professionals are generally in demand, they should be busy doing work, they don't try to higher their status because they are already rewarded. Those who sucks try to trap you with words. Not an indicator for professionals but should be helpful to filter some.
• joeycfan 16y ago
  Good performance plus reliability
• lsc 16y ago
  first, I think "professional" is too broad a brush to evaluate at once, even using your definition of professional. For instance, I'm very good about taking ownership and being accountable. I'm, uh, somewhat less good at actually getting things done on time. I mean, I won't make stupid excuses or try to shift blame, but I am quite often late on actually getting the damn thing done because of my own personal failings, so if you just measured a willingness to accept responsibly when accepting responsibility is unpleasant, you'd think higher of me than you ought. "what is the most costly (to your employer) mistake of your career?" is a good interview question to probe the willingness to take responsibility. I know I've made some expensive mistakes, some of my worst were simply because I typed the wrong thing out of fatigue or inattention. (as I have grown older, I think one of the most important things I've learned is how to tell when I am likely to make a mistake, and when to log out.) I'd argue that a person who claims not to have made expensive mistakes is likely the type to dodge responsibility. (this is eminently true in the ops world. I imagine it's true elsewhere, but I've got a lot less room to speak.) You could also give them a hypothetical where, say, they could have prevented a mistake but it wasn't something they actively caused. Then ask them if it was their responsibility. "If you hired a guy who did something stupid that cost us a lot of money, is it your fault or his fault?" I'd never hire anyone for management who thought it was the hiree's fault. showing up on time, in my experience has nothing to do with a willingness to take responsibility when something goes wrong. As for "gets things done" eh, I'm not the right man to ask about that. When you figure out a better answer than "hire them as a contractor and see" let me know.
• 2plus2equals5 16y ago
  my take: anyone who does things with the wisdom of an 80-year-old sailor, the efficiency of a 45-year old BMW factory worker, and the enthusiasm of a 3-year-old with finger paint
• sdizdar 16y ago
  Ask what he/she did wrong in his/her life and things at which he/she failed. Don't be fooled with "quiet soft-spoken voice of reason" and other outside behavioral decoration. These things can be learned. School where I learned this: odesk.com.
• vlisivka 16y ago
  I know very quick method: Ask "why?" repeatedly.
• blender 16y ago
  They are comfortable answering: "I don't know." Cheers