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>These days you can't even ban assholes without everyone making like you're the one with a problem. That's been true since always. Speaking as someone that was

>These days you can't even ban assholes without everyone making like you're the one with a problem. That's been true since always. Speaking as someone that was in that position within a few online communities back in ~98 or so. Strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

intended 8y ago
Yup - first line of advice I give to family now is "shut your social profiles, and get off of the internet. Failing which here are the things you need to look out for" and the proceed to list a fraction of the issues that I know about, and see them get uncomfortable.
- marchdown 8y ago
  I'd be interested in seeing your list.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - reneherse 8y ago
    Yes, please share it.
    - intended 8y ago
      Gosh I've tried to write this list 3 times now and I've never felt anything was comprehensive enough to put on HN. So, hopefully the attempt will be sufficient - <speech boilerplate "want to protect my family, need to keep you informed, if you arent going to get off of the net, then you need to be prepared"> 1) Humor is being used to weaponize and radicalize people. A significant group of people who identify as alt right were first introdcued to the ideas via humor. Please be careful of off colour humor. You and me may think it is a joke with no bearing on reality. But there are people who think that its not a joke, and that the ideas behind it 2) Be ware whatsapp - I'm in India and there is a spate of lynchings in rural areas because of whatsapp forwards. People have been killed because they are suspected of being child abductors. I've personally seen the videos and they are horrific, they include videos of a live child being gutted - but its a gang video from mexico. Another video depicting an abduction, is from a child safety video in Pakistan - theyre spread between maids, drivers, auto-wallahs and office workers. An Indian state has tried to grapple with this problem by direct communication with the villages, by using drummers, warning people to not trust forwards. Tragically one of the people paid to inform people was himself killed, on suspicion of being a child abductor. 3) Increasing polarizaiton - What started out as mild jokes are expanding into massive cracks in the fabric of my world. A North/South Indian divide has grown from an occasional joke, to an often oozing wound. Online media carries no tone or body language; when people interact in this impoverished environment, our brains end up responding to the strongest emotional versions of a comment. Small fights end up creating lasting grudges. So don't EVER forward anything mildly polarizing and divisive. 4) Dont trust emotions - almost ANY item which generates an emotional response in you, should be treated as suspect. The best way people have to get you to stop thinking rationally, is by making you think emotionally. Other things that come to mind are fake news, and the nature of the media formats to keep people on it, and the entire behavioral science behind it. (Skinnerian conditioning, reward schedules, the network effect, responsive design, social approval and so on). A good point to bring up is depression, and the fact that material on social media is biased, few people talk about an average day or a terrible day or embarrassing things. Humans were not designed to be seduced into believing that the world is great for everyone else and average for me. ---- For the normal person listening in good faith, any one of those points is sufficient to create a sense of discomfort. But ultimately, the main driver is the fact that most people are already uncomfortable with social media and are sitting on a pile of bad experiences.
- vertline3 8y ago
  "Yup - first line of advice I give to family now is "shut your social profiles, and get off of the internet" I don't have facebook, but I find I'm very pressured to use it and instagram for work related promotion... I think the biggest problem is the addictive nature of it, followed by the self-esteem erosion. Does staying in contact outweigh the drawbacks?
  - biztos 8y ago
    > Does staying in contact outweigh the drawbacks? That's the big question so many of us are struggling with these days! I would say, if you're not already on FB/IG, DO NOT join. A long time ago many of us thought the commercial / exploitative side wouldn't be so bad, and it wasn't so addictive in the early days because it was harder to use. And now here we sit, feeling like this is probably a bad idea, but unwilling to give up our "friends" for whatever reason. In my own case, it's because there are a bunch of people I really care about IRL and probably wouldn't keep in minimum touch with otherwise. Or maybe I would... I used to write letters, and the postal services still exist. I find I use Instagram a lot and Facebook not so much, but every once in a while even FB provides a lot of utility. I find IG a very positive experience, at least for me, at least when I don't think about what Zuckerberg is doing with my data. I think if the right 20% of my FB contacts left for another, less compromised service; and that service had an IG-like function, which it probably would; then I'd close my accounts. Or ghost on them, since I don't think you can make them actually delete your data, even under GDPR. Consider yourself lucky, and stay away for personal stuff by all means. If you have to create accounts, do it only for your business.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
curuinor 8y ago
Metafilter and Something Awful have successfully banned assholes multiple times. The secret: paywalls. Only truly dedicated crazy people are willing and able to spend a hundred bucks on annoying people.
- 1123581321 8y ago
  Metafilter is great at stopping spammers and obvious belligerents. It is very poor at keeping out thankless community-ruiners (the “hobby revolutionaries” from the article.) They burnt out mathowie and are currently sniping at cortex for refusing to turn the community over to them (presumably without wanting to take on liability.) The story of a communal online space and physical space can be similar.
  - lukasb 8y ago
    I can't find anything on metatalk that looks like sniping at cortex - but then, I'm way out of the MeFi loop at this point. Link?
    - 1123581321 8y ago
      Sorry, it’s such a chore to go through those long Mets threads. I think in the thread about the sale being finalized last year, a couple of the fundraising threads, and possibly the t-shirt thread? Probably not worth reading through all that, but there are some disgruntled people who use the excuse of being involved and well/behaved to make passive-aggressive demands. A lot of it happens in private slacks and Twitter now, too. It’s still an interesting site, and stronger financially than a community space, just vulnerable similarly.

intended 8y ago

Yup - first line of advice I give to family now is "shut your social profiles, and get off of the internet. Failing which here are the things you need to look out for" and the proceed to list a fraction of the issues that I know about, and see them get uncomfortable.

marchdown 8y ago
I'd be interested in seeing your list.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- reneherse 8y ago
  Yes, please share it.
  - intended 8y ago
    Gosh I've tried to write this list 3 times now and I've never felt anything was comprehensive enough to put on HN. So, hopefully the attempt will be sufficient - <speech boilerplate "want to protect my family, need to keep you informed, if you arent going to get off of the net, then you need to be prepared"> 1) Humor is being used to weaponize and radicalize people. A significant group of people who identify as alt right were first introdcued to the ideas via humor. Please be careful of off colour humor. You and me may think it is a joke with no bearing on reality. But there are people who think that its not a joke, and that the ideas behind it 2) Be ware whatsapp - I'm in India and there is a spate of lynchings in rural areas because of whatsapp forwards. People have been killed because they are suspected of being child abductors. I've personally seen the videos and they are horrific, they include videos of a live child being gutted - but its a gang video from mexico. Another video depicting an abduction, is from a child safety video in Pakistan - theyre spread between maids, drivers, auto-wallahs and office workers. An Indian state has tried to grapple with this problem by direct communication with the villages, by using drummers, warning people to not trust forwards. Tragically one of the people paid to inform people was himself killed, on suspicion of being a child abductor. 3) Increasing polarizaiton - What started out as mild jokes are expanding into massive cracks in the fabric of my world. A North/South Indian divide has grown from an occasional joke, to an often oozing wound. Online media carries no tone or body language; when people interact in this impoverished environment, our brains end up responding to the strongest emotional versions of a comment. Small fights end up creating lasting grudges. So don't EVER forward anything mildly polarizing and divisive. 4) Dont trust emotions - almost ANY item which generates an emotional response in you, should be treated as suspect. The best way people have to get you to stop thinking rationally, is by making you think emotionally. Other things that come to mind are fake news, and the nature of the media formats to keep people on it, and the entire behavioral science behind it. (Skinnerian conditioning, reward schedules, the network effect, responsive design, social approval and so on). A good point to bring up is depression, and the fact that material on social media is biased, few people talk about an average day or a terrible day or embarrassing things. Humans were not designed to be seduced into believing that the world is great for everyone else and average for me. ---- For the normal person listening in good faith, any one of those points is sufficient to create a sense of discomfort. But ultimately, the main driver is the fact that most people are already uncomfortable with social media and are sitting on a pile of bad experiences.
vertline3 8y ago
"Yup - first line of advice I give to family now is "shut your social profiles, and get off of the internet" I don't have facebook, but I find I'm very pressured to use it and instagram for work related promotion... I think the biggest problem is the addictive nature of it, followed by the self-esteem erosion. Does staying in contact outweigh the drawbacks?
- biztos 8y ago
  > Does staying in contact outweigh the drawbacks? That's the big question so many of us are struggling with these days! I would say, if you're not already on FB/IG, DO NOT join. A long time ago many of us thought the commercial / exploitative side wouldn't be so bad, and it wasn't so addictive in the early days because it was harder to use. And now here we sit, feeling like this is probably a bad idea, but unwilling to give up our "friends" for whatever reason. In my own case, it's because there are a bunch of people I really care about IRL and probably wouldn't keep in minimum touch with otherwise. Or maybe I would... I used to write letters, and the postal services still exist. I find I use Instagram a lot and Facebook not so much, but every once in a while even FB provides a lot of utility. I find IG a very positive experience, at least for me, at least when I don't think about what Zuckerberg is doing with my data. I think if the right 20% of my FB contacts left for another, less compromised service; and that service had an IG-like function, which it probably would; then I'd close my accounts. Or ghost on them, since I don't think you can make them actually delete your data, even under GDPR. Consider yourself lucky, and stay away for personal stuff by all means. If you have to create accounts, do it only for your business.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

curuinor 8y ago

Metafilter and Something Awful have successfully banned assholes multiple times. The secret: paywalls. Only truly dedicated crazy people are willing and able to spend a hundred bucks on annoying people.

1123581321 8y ago
Metafilter is great at stopping spammers and obvious belligerents. It is very poor at keeping out thankless community-ruiners (the “hobby revolutionaries” from the article.) They burnt out mathowie and are currently sniping at cortex for refusing to turn the community over to them (presumably without wanting to take on liability.) The story of a communal online space and physical space can be similar.
- lukasb 8y ago
  I can't find anything on metatalk that looks like sniping at cortex - but then, I'm way out of the MeFi loop at this point. Link?
  - 1123581321 8y ago
    Sorry, it’s such a chore to go through those long Mets threads. I think in the thread about the sale being finalized last year, a couple of the fundraising threads, and possibly the t-shirt thread? Probably not worth reading through all that, but there are some disgruntled people who use the excuse of being involved and well/behaved to make passive-aggressive demands. A lot of it happens in private slacks and Twitter now, too. It’s still an interesting site, and stronger financially than a community space, just vulnerable similarly.