8 ms·

I am sympathetic. From HN stories, the US health care situations seems abysmal. BUT, i want to make 3 counter points, if only for the sake of discussion. a. C

I am sympathetic. From HN stories, the US health care situations seems abysmal. BUT, i want to make 3 counter points, if only for the sake of discussion. a. Cancer for many is a terminal disease. There are always some very very expensive and experimental or marginal treatments. If u have money, and are going to die, and decide to spend all you can to squeeze an extra year of life , i am very sympathetic but even the most generous European have spending limits. b. This is about the US. The US has made a conscious decision to low-tax and low-safety-net. This is very harsh for the ill or poor. But this choice is reaffirmed every 4 years by sort-of-functional elections at multiple levels of government. Bernie never even made it past the primaries. c. No one mentions the non terminally ill 95% who presumably enjoy high salaries for years and years (only in the US could a new $60K car be described as "a low cost model")

moonbug 8y ago
Except that net US personal taxation isn't far off that found across the EU.
- ravitation 8y ago
  Not only is it not far off, the practical personal tax rate is actually higher in the US than in several European countries. It's not as simple as "the US has lower taxes, and therefore fewer public benefits".
  - Agathos 8y ago
    Yeah, the US spends more on socialized medicine than anyone. Most of it goes through Medicare.
- refurb 8y ago
  The EU varies a lot in personal tax rates. The higher end of the EU is much higher than the US.
J5892 8y ago
Buying a $60k car seems like a completely insane concept to me, even with a Silicon Valley tech industry salary. Even $16k (used) was higher than I wanted to pay for my current car.
- andreygrehov 8y ago
  Respectfully disagree. Recently leased a $60k car and I enjoy every single minute I'm driving it. I'm not paying for a transportation vehicle, I'm paying for joy and pleasure. What else should I spend money on? Burgers and coke?
  - yazr 8y ago
    /s Well - u could save up for cancer treatment /s Seriously though. Enjoy it. I had a cool sport car as a young-ish engineer and it gave joy after every long dreary day at the office.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      I was totally going to buy and enjoy a sports car when moving back to the states after 11 years abroad with no car at all. Then we got pregnant and...the dream has to wait ~5-10 years as I'm now into fancy strollers. :).
    - sjg007 8y ago
      It's super awesome to drive your expensive sports car at 5mph in stop and go traffic on the 101 or 405. s/ Just the best. /s
  - djajshgsjja 8y ago
    I won’t tell you what to do with your money, but there are a lot of cheap fun cars to drive out there. If you want fun to drive combined with new features like automatic lane keeping, dynamic cruise control, etc. you may need to shell out a little more for it. I encourage high-earning tech workers to save more money in general - these are boom times. $60k pays rent on a room in the bay for a long time if you’re unemployed. I’m gonna buy the house before I lease the Tesla. But don’t know about your personal financial situation.
jopsen 8y ago
> a. Cancer for many is a terminal disease. True, for about 50% of people it is terminal. I doubt the overlap is perfect. > c. No one mentions the non terminally ill 95% who presumably enjoy... True, however, about 50% of people will get cancer at some point in their life. So I guess for a lot of people it's more like you live well, until you get sick. And almost everybody gets serious illness at some point (such is life -- it ends). But (b) is certainly a fair point.
desertrider12 8y ago
I agree with low safety net, but an average income is taxed about as heavily as the UK or Germany.
- refurb 8y ago
  Source? The highest bracket kicks in a much lower salary in the UK and Germany than it does in the US. My income taxes were much lower in the US coming from Canada.
  - desertrider12 8y ago
    If your gross income is $80,000, overall federal income tax is 17%. There's also the 12.4% social security tax and the 2.4% Medicare tax, so the overall rate is 32%. State income tax varies (in CA it's 6% on the $80000, in TX it's 0%). The equivalent UK income is 61200 GBP. Income tax is is 21%, and National Insurance is 8% for 29%. This doesn't include the 20% VAT on most goods and services, but that also doesn't apply to all your income (doesn't apply to savings, housing, utilities). Sources: https://www.irs.com/articles/2018-federal-tax-rates-personal-exemptions-and-standard-deductions https://www.irs.com/articles/2018-federal-tax-rates-personal... https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/personal-finance/new-medicare-taxes https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/personal-finance/new-med... https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/how-much-you-pay https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/how-much-you-pay https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates
    - guitarbill 8y ago
      If you calculated the equivalent income by converting dollars to pounds, that isn't a good measure of equivalence. £61k is a huge salary, especially outside London. It's even high for a programmer 5 years in. Whereas there are plenty of roles that pay $80k, and it would be insulting for most programmers out of uni.
      - desertrider12 8y ago
dionidium 8y ago
> only in the US could a new $60K car be described as "a low cost model" You're almost right, just one country too many :) That's not considered a low-cost car in the United States. If you think it is, then you've been spending too much time around the type of people who hang out on Hacker News.
heavymark 8y ago
In the US here. 60K is by no means consider a low cost car anywhere, however yes, that could be considered a low cost model if you are talking about a high end sports luxury brand, but even in that case doesn't make much sense since BMW, Mercedes and all have low cost entry models that are far below 60k, and for the the even more premium brands there lowest price cars are probably over 100K. So not sure which brand you are referring to where 60k is the entry model? But yes if someone has money and little to no family they will spend it all trying to save themselves. Where is if they have a family they are more likely to try to live while also knowing its unlikely and thinking to the future for their families. Also the US Congress has made the decision about low-tax low safety net. The majority of American's accordingly to the popular vote in the last election voted for democrats that would have been higher tax and higher safety net. So majority of Americans do not support the current Congress in power's approach. Hoping our health care system is fixed some day but with the power those lobbyist hold that is highly unlikely even with different leadership in charge.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> only in the US could a new $60K car be described as "a low cost model") Not even in the US is that description remotely reasonable; $60K is above the average new car price...not just overall, but even in the “Luxury Car” segment. https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-10-02-Average-New-Car-Prices-Rise-2-Percent-Year-Over-Year-According-to-Kelley-Blue-Book https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-10-02-Average-New-Car-Prices-...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
738472527784 8y ago
Regarding A: I think it is important to note, that cancer is usually survivable, if caught early. This might make the "all in" phenomenon not inherent to the disease, because affordable, frequent checkups and education, might prevent many late stage cancer cases. Especially for colon and skin cancers. Regarding C: Sure, everything is fine in healthy years, but 20% of the population is going to die from cancer alone. So it's not like only a tiny fraction is going to experience this dread.
woofyman 8y ago
>only in the US could a new $60K car be described as "a low cost model" Only wealthy people consider 60k a low cost vehicle.

moonbug 8y ago

Except that net US personal taxation isn't far off that found across the EU.

ravitation 8y ago
Not only is it not far off, the practical personal tax rate is actually higher in the US than in several European countries. It's not as simple as "the US has lower taxes, and therefore fewer public benefits".
- Agathos 8y ago
  Yeah, the US spends more on socialized medicine than anyone. Most of it goes through Medicare.
refurb 8y ago
The EU varies a lot in personal tax rates. The higher end of the EU is much higher than the US.

J5892 8y ago

Buying a $60k car seems like a completely insane concept to me, even with a Silicon Valley tech industry salary. Even $16k (used) was higher than I wanted to pay for my current car.

andreygrehov 8y ago
Respectfully disagree. Recently leased a $60k car and I enjoy every single minute I'm driving it. I'm not paying for a transportation vehicle, I'm paying for joy and pleasure. What else should I spend money on? Burgers and coke?
- yazr 8y ago
  /s Well - u could save up for cancer treatment /s Seriously though. Enjoy it. I had a cool sport car as a young-ish engineer and it gave joy after every long dreary day at the office.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    I was totally going to buy and enjoy a sports car when moving back to the states after 11 years abroad with no car at all. Then we got pregnant and...the dream has to wait ~5-10 years as I'm now into fancy strollers. :).
  - sjg007 8y ago
    It's super awesome to drive your expensive sports car at 5mph in stop and go traffic on the 101 or 405. s/ Just the best. /s
- djajshgsjja 8y ago
  I won’t tell you what to do with your money, but there are a lot of cheap fun cars to drive out there. If you want fun to drive combined with new features like automatic lane keeping, dynamic cruise control, etc. you may need to shell out a little more for it. I encourage high-earning tech workers to save more money in general - these are boom times. $60k pays rent on a room in the bay for a long time if you’re unemployed. I’m gonna buy the house before I lease the Tesla. But don’t know about your personal financial situation.

jopsen 8y ago

> a. Cancer for many is a terminal disease. True, for about 50% of people it is terminal. I doubt the overlap is perfect. > c. No one mentions the non terminally ill 95% who presumably enjoy... True, however, about 50% of people will get cancer at some point in their life. So I guess for a lot of people it's more like you live well, until you get sick. And almost everybody gets serious illness at some point (such is life -- it ends). But (b) is certainly a fair point.

desertrider12 8y ago

I agree with low safety net, but an average income is taxed about as heavily as the UK or Germany.

refurb 8y ago
Source? The highest bracket kicks in a much lower salary in the UK and Germany than it does in the US. My income taxes were much lower in the US coming from Canada.
- desertrider12 8y ago
  If your gross income is $80,000, overall federal income tax is 17%. There's also the 12.4% social security tax and the 2.4% Medicare tax, so the overall rate is 32%. State income tax varies (in CA it's 6% on the $80000, in TX it's 0%). The equivalent UK income is 61200 GBP. Income tax is is 21%, and National Insurance is 8% for 29%. This doesn't include the 20% VAT on most goods and services, but that also doesn't apply to all your income (doesn't apply to savings, housing, utilities). Sources: https://www.irs.com/articles/2018-federal-tax-rates-personal-exemptions-and-standard-deductions https://www.irs.com/articles/2018-federal-tax-rates-personal... https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/personal-finance/new-medicare-taxes https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/personal-finance/new-med... https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/how-much-you-pay https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/how-much-you-pay https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    If you calculated the equivalent income by converting dollars to pounds, that isn't a good measure of equivalence. £61k is a huge salary, especially outside London. It's even high for a programmer 5 years in. Whereas there are plenty of roles that pay $80k, and it would be insulting for most programmers out of uni.
    - desertrider12 8y ago

dionidium 8y ago

> only in the US could a new $60K car be described as "a low cost model" You're almost right, just one country too many :) That's not considered a low-cost car in the United States. If you think it is, then you've been spending too much time around the type of people who hang out on Hacker News.

heavymark 8y ago

In the US here. 60K is by no means consider a low cost car anywhere, however yes, that could be considered a low cost model if you are talking about a high end sports luxury brand, but even in that case doesn't make much sense since BMW, Mercedes and all have low cost entry models that are far below 60k, and for the the even more premium brands there lowest price cars are probably over 100K. So not sure which brand you are referring to where 60k is the entry model? But yes if someone has money and little to no family they will spend it all trying to save themselves. Where is if they have a family they are more likely to try to live while also knowing its unlikely and thinking to the future for their families. Also the US Congress has made the decision about low-tax low safety net. The majority of American's accordingly to the popular vote in the last election voted for democrats that would have been higher tax and higher safety net. So majority of Americans do not support the current Congress in power's approach. Hoping our health care system is fixed some day but with the power those lobbyist hold that is highly unlikely even with different leadership in charge.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> only in the US could a new $60K car be described as "a low cost model") Not even in the US is that description remotely reasonable; $60K is above the average new car price...not just overall, but even in the “Luxury Car” segment. https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-10-02-Average-New-Car-Prices-Rise-2-Percent-Year-Over-Year-According-to-Kelley-Blue-Book https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-10-02-Average-New-Car-Prices-...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

738472527784 8y ago

Regarding A: I think it is important to note, that cancer is usually survivable, if caught early. This might make the "all in" phenomenon not inherent to the disease, because affordable, frequent checkups and education, might prevent many late stage cancer cases. Especially for colon and skin cancers. Regarding C: Sure, everything is fine in healthy years, but 20% of the population is going to die from cancer alone. So it's not like only a tiny fraction is going to experience this dread.

woofyman 8y ago

>only in the US could a new $60K car be described as "a low cost model" Only wealthy people consider 60k a low cost vehicle.