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> "We don't get enough sleep, and we are not going to "change our ways" because there are already too few hours in most people's days to do things they enjoy. C

> "We don't get enough sleep, and we are not going to "change our ways" because there are already too few hours in most people's days to do things they enjoy. Call it a sad fact of life because that's what it is" This honestly is spot on the way I think about it - I can sleep early, but who benefits from my day to day learning as an adult? My employer maybe? Me in some minor long term ways? Or I can stay up and do things I enjoy, wake myself up with an alarm every day and consume enough caffeine to bridge the gap. This way, I get more enjoyment out of my life in a very direct and measurable way. If 5-6 hours of sleep a night is enough to get paid, I'm not going to make a sacrifice that will cost me personally.

Apocryphon 8y ago
The negative health impact is going to diminish your enjoyment of life.
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  I'm highly doubtful that it'll diminish my enjoyment of life by more than the 2.5 hours a day worth of enjoyment I wouldn't otherwise have. That's like adding a full month of time to every year. I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow and I'd be damn glad I took that extra time for myself each and every day.
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    I agree with you. Some people want to live well into their 80s and 90s. I look at most people in their 80s and 90s and cringe. Loads of pills. Walkers. Cognitive struggles. etc. I'm fine living until 65 if it was a full, happy, productive life. I don't need to live forever, nor do I want to.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      But low sleep is going to impact your perception during waking life. You’re not going to get the maximum cognitive productivity or the maximum emotional enjoyment out of life. It’s like working smarter vs. working harder.
      - shittyadmin 8y ago
        I don't quite get it - why do you think I need the maximum possible cognitive productivity out of my life? If I'm delivering enough to get the job done, that's enough for me, I don't need to invest every minute of my day in maximizing my cognitive productivity over my enjoyment of life. If I'm giving up spending time with my family and friends, working on personal projects or even just catching up on a TV show I enjoy, I'd say that's a better use of my time than sleeping. I see no reason to think it has significant impact on emotional enjoyment though as you're suggesting - these studies impact learning primarily which wouldn't seem to be deeply involved there. In fact, studies exist showing positive impacts for depression patients.
        gf263 8y ago
        It has a significant impact on my emotional enjoyment. I feel happier, less grumpy, less anxious, when I sleep my full 8
        lucideer 8y ago
        I feel less grumpy and less anxious, each time I sleep my full 8, but I'd be hesitant to equate that sensation with "happier". If I do that for an extended period of time, I feel bored, existential, "socially unproductive", and begin to get a creeping sense of being a rat in a ratrace. If I sacrifice some of those 8 hours, I feel grumpy, moody, occasionally a bit depressed, but overall get to do more small day-to-day things of value that give me a genuine sense of fulfillment on top of that.
        bluntfang 8y ago
        >If I do that for an extended period of time, I feel bored, existential, "socially unproductive", and begin to get a creeping sense of being a rat in a ratrace. Have you considered that your life is boring and that you're actually participating in a rat race and sleep is allowing you to identify that?
        8y ago
    - pstuart 8y ago
      You sound like you're in your twenties. I think you're setting up a false dichotomy, but it's your life. YOLO!
    - doctorOb 8y ago
      I had this view for a while, until I thought about it from the perspective of my loved ones. They may very well prefer that I live past 65.
  - louprado 8y ago
    "I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow" Ironically, when I am sleep deprived I am more accident prone and more likely to get hit by a bus. But what's almost certain, if I sleep less than 7 hours for more than 1 week, I will catch a cold. My immune system doesn't work as well without sufficient sleep.
    - alonmower 8y ago
      Same, it’s like clockwork for me if I get three or more bad nights of sleep in a row
  - yelloweyes 8y ago
    Why do nerds have this thing where they think they got it all figured out. Like everything is a mathematical system where you can prove that A+B=C.
    - aaachilless 8y ago
      I'm pretty confident the tendency to think you have it all figured out is not scoped to nerd-dom.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - ryanmonroe 8y ago
      Well you have to make your decisions based on something right? I'm not sure what you're advocating here, unless it's that we shouldn't think about life decisions too hard. The fact that math is involved doesn't automatically mean the reasoning is shallow.
      - Apocryphon 8y ago
        It's referring to the engineer's disease: https://ask.metafilter.com/297591/Origin-of-the-term-Engineers-Disease https://ask.metafilter.com/297591/Origin-of-the-term-Enginee... You see it in popular commentary sometimes- the ideas of engineers, often specifically software engineers, claiming unique knowledge by deriving from first principles, in fields they are but laymen in.
        Kiro 8y ago
        I rather trust an engineer in random subjects than anyone else that is not a professional in the field.
        Apocryphon 8y ago
        Why? Why not doctors? Physicists? Geologists? Scientists of other disciplines? Mathematicians? Statisticians? Why give engineers- and I presume, software engineers, specifically- that extra credit?
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    Being underslept makes me grumpy, irritable, unable to focus and pessimistic. All the time. Having enough sleep lifts up my mood, I am naturally joyful, with easy and reliable access to my memory, and relaxed. All day long. For me, I know that having fewer pleasurable activities in well-rested mode beats the grinding experience of more stuff in grumpy mode. Being 90-100% present and able to enjoy fewer things is better than being 30-60% present, and in partial agony, with more things. So I prioritize sleep which forces me to do less unnecessary stuff.
    - sharadov 8y ago
      You are 100% right. The days I sleep less is when am cranky, unable to focus. Its worse in the morning gets better as the day progresses. I work from home, so on those days I'll take a nap and it's a huge upliftment in the mood. And I've had those work weeks, where you don't get enough sleep and I've almost had accidents, screwed up shit at work.
  - erfgh 8y ago
    Well, I can't get any enjoyment when I'm sleepy. Try to watch a movie, I fall asleep; try to read a book, I fall asleep. So if you lack sleep you can't get enjoyment anyway.
john_of_peaches 8y ago
What do you do to enjoy those extra 2.5 hours?
misiti3780 8y ago
I suggest you read "why we sleep" by Matthew Walker. According to him (phd in neuroscience from stanford) you are just short changing yourself -- you're opening yourself up to all sorts of heath conditions later on. Not telling you how to live your life, just saying this book fundamentally changed the way I think about sleep and it is worth your time (IMHO)
- ericd 8y ago
  In the middle of this book right now, it's eye opening. I've never really prioritized sleep until now, and the difference in how I feel is very noticeable. I may have less waking time, but I'd say the difference in the integral of hours-enjoyment is a big net win.
  - jmatthews 8y ago
    That book on sleep is a real eye opener ehh? :)
    - prostoalex 8y ago
      The author actually makes a joke in the prologue that he’d be delighted if any reader snoozed off while reading the book.
    - ericd 8y ago
      :-D
- ssijak 8y ago
  Yeah, if anything, that book just ingrained in my brain the importantce of not screwing up sleep. So much so that I know have slight fear if I don`t sleep well or need to shorten the sleep for 1-2 days for some reason.
  - alonmower 8y ago
    That fear actually really messes with me sometimes. The anxiety of knowing I won’t get enough sleep actually keeps me awake sometimes, then I get more anxious and less likely to sleep, etc...
kraftman 8y ago
Getting more sleep enhances every aspect of my day to day life. I snack less, drink less coke, eat better, spend much less time lazing around rewatching crap on netflix because I'm too exhausted to do anything else. I've been to the gym more simply because I can be bothered.
- dingaling 8y ago
  > I've been to the gym more simply because I can be bothered. Conversely I can take 6.5 hours of sleep and do exercise, or sleep for 8 hours and not have time to exercise. Self-help books are noticeably silent on which is better.
  - bluntfang 8y ago
    I think generally the idea is that if you can't get exercise and 8 hours of sleep you need to reprioritize. If you only have these 2 options, there are bigger problems you need to tackle to open up time.
  - olvo 8y ago
    I would think the sleep for sure. I don't think many studies recommend 1+ hours of exercise a day. If you walk as much as possible, squeeze in 15 minutes of (body) weight training a day and maybe two 30 minutes of jogging a week you should be pretty good.
    - papito 8y ago
      One advice we can't act upon is "work less". We can't win.
      - lsc 8y ago
        >One advice we can't act upon is "work less". We can't win. I think most of the people on hn (or at least most well-paid tech workers... do those still make the majority here?) can work less fairly easily, if that working less comes with the massive performance boost that goes with sleeping properly. I'm sure it's way different for retail and other hourly-type workers. If I sleep more and if I sleep better? I am just way more effective. When I'm being effective and getting things done, people are pretty slack about me showing up late and/or leaving early, even at the FANG companies. I mean, I don't know anyone who put "I worked X hours a day" in their promo packet; nobody cares. no, the idea behind the promo packet is that you show what you accomplished, and how those accomplishments effected the company. My experience is that the boss gets on me about working more only when I'm not producing enough; usually the solution isn't to work more, but instead to figure out why I'm not performing up to expectations and fix that.
ryandrake 8y ago
As I get older I find myself worrying more about having enough time than I worry about having enough money, being productive enough, or even having pristine health. Time feels more and more important to optimize, having spent most of my youth wasting time and optimizing for those other things.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
trophycase 8y ago
You sleep because going through life sleep deprived is torture. Nothing else to it friend.
- TheTrotters 8y ago
  Right? When reading such comments I sometimes replace “sleep” with “eating” or “drinking”. It’s insane. If my basic physiological needs aren’t met I’m miserable and unable to enjoy the pleasures of life.
sp3000 8y ago
Someone else already recommended "Why We Sleep" by the premier sleep researcher in the field, and I highly suggest you get it. Here is a passage from it that should make you rethink the entire rationale you are using to shortchange yourself of sleep: "Routinely sleeping less than six or seven hours a night demolishes your immune system, more than doubling your risk of cancer. Insufficient sleep is a key lifestyle factor determining whether or not you will develop Alzheimer’s disease. Inadequate sleep—even moderate reductions for just one week—disrupts blood sugar levels so profoundly that you would be classified as pre-diabetic. Short sleeping increases the likelihood of your coronary arteries becoming blocked and brittle, setting you on a path toward cardiovascular disease, stroke, and congestive heart failure. Fitting Charlotte Brontë’s prophetic wisdom that “a ruffled mind makes a restless pillow,” sleep disruption further contributes to all major psychiatric conditions, including depression, anxiety, and suicidality."
- Gatsky 8y ago
  Remember that the author is financially incentivised to make claims about large effect sizes of sleep deprivation, and to infer causality where it may or may not exist.
  - sp3000 8y ago
    While it is good to be skeptical, the book really goes in depth and makes a compelling case. I also believe sleep is one of those areas that it is better to err on the side of getting the recommended amount. “If sleep does not serve an absolutely vital function, then it is the biggest mistake the evolutionary process has ever made.” - Dr. Allan Rechtschaffen.
    - Gatsky 8y ago
      They are all observational studies, usually with small cohorts. Same problem with nutrtitional science and psychology. History tells us again and again these results are biased, unduly influenced by the investigators and often overturned (eg Thinking Fast and Slow).
  - 8y ago
olvo 8y ago
That reads a lot like the classic sleep deprived cycle. Hard to get up, tired for most of the day, exhausted after work, feels awake towards the evening, can't sleep, rinse and repeat. If that is the case I think the key is realizing that you are cheating yourself. When you aren't sleep deprived you should be able to do most of your required work mid-morning and take it easy in the afternoon. Then when you get home you won't be exhausted and can do whatever you want and still go to bed at ease.
PascLeRasc 8y ago
Once we get UBI or a <40 hour work week becomes the norm, this kind of stuff will be applicable to many more people. Right now a lot of the population can't afford to be healthy.
lev99 8y ago
There are other ways to get an extra 2-3 hrs a day that are not bad for your health. Some ideas. * Acquire a shorter commute by moving somewhere closer to work, shifting your working hours to avoid rush hour, or working from home. * Bike to work, to combine commuting and exercise time. * Hire help with daily chores like lawn work, house cleaning, laundry, and cooking. * Eat lunch at your desk
- matwood 8y ago
  A better way is stop doing stupid things. Many of us need to sleep in because we play around on our phones/games for hours before bed. I get up between 5-6 am every morning and go workout. Then I have super productive time for a few hours without interruptions. Come 9-10 pm I go to bed and am sleep in minutes from a full day. I realized that when I used to stay up later I wasn’t very productive, and just wasted a lot of time.
  - ChildOfChaos 8y ago
    Do you not find you need some "stupid time" else all you do is sleep and work?
    - matwood 8y ago
      Actually no. I end up with more free time to do the things I want to do. Many of us (maybe not you specifically) just do things without really thinking about them. Watching TV, playing video games, etc... we do out of boredom or habit. Not because we really want to do them. I think PG has written about cutting out the bullshit that doesn't matter [1]. Those are the things I talk about being stupid. Does looking at FB for an hour before bed matter? How about some phone game? Or binging a whole Netflix series in one night? I get so much more done through the early parts of the day, I end up with more time to spend with my wife doing things we want to do. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html
  - ehnto 8y ago
    Everyone is different, but I found it is down to allocating the time you are most productive effectively. If you want to get work done and you work best in the morning with no distractions, get up early and go to sleep early. If you work best at night, stay up late and maximise your time in those productive hours. If you are comfortable with your day job and want to maximise life enjoyment it's pretty much the same thing, except you're picking the time best suited for what makes you happy. No surprise that active people like to get up and excercise early, lots of daylight and that fresh morning air is invigorating. It's also no surprise that people who like to game or veg out tend to do it at night when they are slowing down from the day. It is a concious choice though, and I feel many just accidentally fall into a pattern and forget they usually have the agency to choose.
tw1010 8y ago
Aren't you curious about the world, about history, about psychology? You won't be able to learn deep rich history if you don't remember what you read in the first nine books once you get to the real payoff in the tenth book.
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  Honestly, I'm not. I like to build things, software, hobby electronics, a bit of cooking and baking, but all of that stuff is best learned through experience, not rote memoization. Other than that though I find it far more enjoyable to do something other than blindly consume knowledge for no purpose, I'd much rather engage in social activities or play games - even making numbers go up is more satisfying to me than memorizing factoids of limited practical use to me.
  - dabei 8y ago
    Personally as a software engineer I feel quality sleep makes a big difference on the quality of learning I get through experience. I'm more sensitive to the details that matter and develop deeper insights when encountering a new problem.
dhnsmakala 8y ago
What do you stay up to do that you enjoy? I think that for most people who don't get enough sleep it's not because they are busy squeezing every bit of joy out of life. It's because they're using their phone in bed, watching TV, etc.
bpchaps 8y ago
Heh. You'd be surprised, so long as you're willing to apply your skills outside of employment and with the knowledge that you might not get paid for it. There are SO MANY fields of applied programming that are currently completely starved for resources. Think of it in terms of open source projects, where the projects that you might be interested have only a few people working on them - but in the context of issues that affect folk completely outside of tech who don't have disposable income like those you'd see on HN or similar. I seriously recommend that you check out a local "open data civics" group, or something similar in your area. You'll find that they're generally filled with junior programmers - but what they need are senior level programmers who can take charge of problems that junior programmers otherwise can't take charge of. Be that person. FWIW, personally everything that I learn is entirely aimed towards helping the general public (at a distance), at the expense of my own salary. The work has been very rewarding. That said, it would be great if others would take the plunge that I have.
- mountainplus 8y ago
  This is very interesting train of thought and I've been trying for the past two years to find these type of opportunities within my wider network of acquaintances. Still, not much luck. Would you have some ideas / insights / further concrete examples on what could one do? I am very motivated to help and give back to those around because there is not much else I can do except for this. Feel free to email me at the address in my desc. Thanks-a-lot!
  - bsmitty5000 8y ago
    I was moved to action by this comment as well. I found a local chapter of Code for America that seems pretty active. Maybe your city as something similar?
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  You can't be serious. Why would I want to come home and continue applying the same skillset I apply at work all day? Is there something about software development that makes people feel the need to practice it every waking minute of their lives? I mean, sometimes I do it when there's an itch I really need scratched, but most of the time I'd rather do something else. Basically anything else. Is it so wrong to want to socialize a bit or put on one of the pile of TV shows and anime I'd like to check out? Doing that sort of volunteer work is great, but I just can't, I need to turn it off at some point.
erfgh 8y ago
Why can't you do those things you enjoy in the morning?
- ArrayList 8y ago
  Who has time to do anything in the morning? It's grab a cup of coffee and rush into traffic to support the dominator culture/society.
thinkxl 8y ago
I hope nobody follows this advice. Sleep is very important for your physical and mental health, and it affects people around you, too. Even those two extra hours you can add are really important. You probably could say "yeah, I'll just drink coffee in the morning," well, NOTHING is a replacement for sleep and coffee has some repercussions in your sleep too (depending on quantity and when you drink it). So if you are sleep deprived and adding coffee to the mix, you're doing it wrong. Inform yourself, read books about it, ask doctors, don't make decisions based on what people say on the internet (myself included) and you will notice a big difference almost right away. I stopped drinking coffee (because I have terrible reflux) and started sleeping more. I wake up in a better mood; I noticed that I'm more productive at work because I'm less stressed, plus my family noticed the change too.
- hhjinks 8y ago
  Not to mention that a good night's sleep is one of the best feelings I know. I try my best to get at least 8 hours of sleep every night, and waking up in the morning is almost a joy.

Apocryphon 8y ago

The negative health impact is going to diminish your enjoyment of life.

shittyadmin 8y ago
I'm highly doubtful that it'll diminish my enjoyment of life by more than the 2.5 hours a day worth of enjoyment I wouldn't otherwise have. That's like adding a full month of time to every year. I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow and I'd be damn glad I took that extra time for myself each and every day.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  I agree with you. Some people want to live well into their 80s and 90s. I look at most people in their 80s and 90s and cringe. Loads of pills. Walkers. Cognitive struggles. etc. I'm fine living until 65 if it was a full, happy, productive life. I don't need to live forever, nor do I want to.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    But low sleep is going to impact your perception during waking life. You’re not going to get the maximum cognitive productivity or the maximum emotional enjoyment out of life. It’s like working smarter vs. working harder.
    - shittyadmin 8y ago
      I don't quite get it - why do you think I need the maximum possible cognitive productivity out of my life? If I'm delivering enough to get the job done, that's enough for me, I don't need to invest every minute of my day in maximizing my cognitive productivity over my enjoyment of life. If I'm giving up spending time with my family and friends, working on personal projects or even just catching up on a TV show I enjoy, I'd say that's a better use of my time than sleeping. I see no reason to think it has significant impact on emotional enjoyment though as you're suggesting - these studies impact learning primarily which wouldn't seem to be deeply involved there. In fact, studies exist showing positive impacts for depression patients.
      - gf263 8y ago
        It has a significant impact on my emotional enjoyment. I feel happier, less grumpy, less anxious, when I sleep my full 8
        lucideer 8y ago
        I feel less grumpy and less anxious, each time I sleep my full 8, but I'd be hesitant to equate that sensation with "happier". If I do that for an extended period of time, I feel bored, existential, "socially unproductive", and begin to get a creeping sense of being a rat in a ratrace. If I sacrifice some of those 8 hours, I feel grumpy, moody, occasionally a bit depressed, but overall get to do more small day-to-day things of value that give me a genuine sense of fulfillment on top of that.
        bluntfang 8y ago
        >If I do that for an extended period of time, I feel bored, existential, "socially unproductive", and begin to get a creeping sense of being a rat in a ratrace. Have you considered that your life is boring and that you're actually participating in a rat race and sleep is allowing you to identify that?
        8y ago
  - pstuart 8y ago
    You sound like you're in your twenties. I think you're setting up a false dichotomy, but it's your life. YOLO!
  - doctorOb 8y ago
    I had this view for a while, until I thought about it from the perspective of my loved ones. They may very well prefer that I live past 65.
- louprado 8y ago
  "I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow" Ironically, when I am sleep deprived I am more accident prone and more likely to get hit by a bus. But what's almost certain, if I sleep less than 7 hours for more than 1 week, I will catch a cold. My immune system doesn't work as well without sufficient sleep.
  - alonmower 8y ago
    Same, it’s like clockwork for me if I get three or more bad nights of sleep in a row
- yelloweyes 8y ago
  Why do nerds have this thing where they think they got it all figured out. Like everything is a mathematical system where you can prove that A+B=C.
  - aaachilless 8y ago
    I'm pretty confident the tendency to think you have it all figured out is not scoped to nerd-dom.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryanmonroe 8y ago
    Well you have to make your decisions based on something right? I'm not sure what you're advocating here, unless it's that we shouldn't think about life decisions too hard. The fact that math is involved doesn't automatically mean the reasoning is shallow.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      It's referring to the engineer's disease: https://ask.metafilter.com/297591/Origin-of-the-term-Engineers-Disease https://ask.metafilter.com/297591/Origin-of-the-term-Enginee... You see it in popular commentary sometimes- the ideas of engineers, often specifically software engineers, claiming unique knowledge by deriving from first principles, in fields they are but laymen in.
      - Kiro 8y ago
        I rather trust an engineer in random subjects than anyone else that is not a professional in the field.
        Apocryphon 8y ago
        Why? Why not doctors? Physicists? Geologists? Scientists of other disciplines? Mathematicians? Statisticians? Why give engineers- and I presume, software engineers, specifically- that extra credit?
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  Being underslept makes me grumpy, irritable, unable to focus and pessimistic. All the time. Having enough sleep lifts up my mood, I am naturally joyful, with easy and reliable access to my memory, and relaxed. All day long. For me, I know that having fewer pleasurable activities in well-rested mode beats the grinding experience of more stuff in grumpy mode. Being 90-100% present and able to enjoy fewer things is better than being 30-60% present, and in partial agony, with more things. So I prioritize sleep which forces me to do less unnecessary stuff.
  - sharadov 8y ago
    You are 100% right. The days I sleep less is when am cranky, unable to focus. Its worse in the morning gets better as the day progresses. I work from home, so on those days I'll take a nap and it's a huge upliftment in the mood. And I've had those work weeks, where you don't get enough sleep and I've almost had accidents, screwed up shit at work.
- erfgh 8y ago
  Well, I can't get any enjoyment when I'm sleepy. Try to watch a movie, I fall asleep; try to read a book, I fall asleep. So if you lack sleep you can't get enjoyment anyway.

john_of_peaches 8y ago

What do you do to enjoy those extra 2.5 hours?

misiti3780 8y ago

I suggest you read "why we sleep" by Matthew Walker. According to him (phd in neuroscience from stanford) you are just short changing yourself -- you're opening yourself up to all sorts of heath conditions later on. Not telling you how to live your life, just saying this book fundamentally changed the way I think about sleep and it is worth your time (IMHO)

ericd 8y ago
In the middle of this book right now, it's eye opening. I've never really prioritized sleep until now, and the difference in how I feel is very noticeable. I may have less waking time, but I'd say the difference in the integral of hours-enjoyment is a big net win.
- jmatthews 8y ago
  That book on sleep is a real eye opener ehh? :)
  - prostoalex 8y ago
    The author actually makes a joke in the prologue that he’d be delighted if any reader snoozed off while reading the book.
  - ericd 8y ago
    :-D
ssijak 8y ago
Yeah, if anything, that book just ingrained in my brain the importantce of not screwing up sleep. So much so that I know have slight fear if I don`t sleep well or need to shorten the sleep for 1-2 days for some reason.
- alonmower 8y ago
  That fear actually really messes with me sometimes. The anxiety of knowing I won’t get enough sleep actually keeps me awake sometimes, then I get more anxious and less likely to sleep, etc...

kraftman 8y ago

Getting more sleep enhances every aspect of my day to day life. I snack less, drink less coke, eat better, spend much less time lazing around rewatching crap on netflix because I'm too exhausted to do anything else. I've been to the gym more simply because I can be bothered.

dingaling 8y ago
> I've been to the gym more simply because I can be bothered. Conversely I can take 6.5 hours of sleep and do exercise, or sleep for 8 hours and not have time to exercise. Self-help books are noticeably silent on which is better.
- bluntfang 8y ago
  I think generally the idea is that if you can't get exercise and 8 hours of sleep you need to reprioritize. If you only have these 2 options, there are bigger problems you need to tackle to open up time.
- olvo 8y ago
  I would think the sleep for sure. I don't think many studies recommend 1+ hours of exercise a day. If you walk as much as possible, squeeze in 15 minutes of (body) weight training a day and maybe two 30 minutes of jogging a week you should be pretty good.
  - papito 8y ago
    One advice we can't act upon is "work less". We can't win.
    - lsc 8y ago
      >One advice we can't act upon is "work less". We can't win. I think most of the people on hn (or at least most well-paid tech workers... do those still make the majority here?) can work less fairly easily, if that working less comes with the massive performance boost that goes with sleeping properly. I'm sure it's way different for retail and other hourly-type workers. If I sleep more and if I sleep better? I am just way more effective. When I'm being effective and getting things done, people are pretty slack about me showing up late and/or leaving early, even at the FANG companies. I mean, I don't know anyone who put "I worked X hours a day" in their promo packet; nobody cares. no, the idea behind the promo packet is that you show what you accomplished, and how those accomplishments effected the company. My experience is that the boss gets on me about working more only when I'm not producing enough; usually the solution isn't to work more, but instead to figure out why I'm not performing up to expectations and fix that.

ryandrake 8y ago

As I get older I find myself worrying more about having enough time than I worry about having enough money, being productive enough, or even having pristine health. Time feels more and more important to optimize, having spent most of my youth wasting time and optimizing for those other things.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

trophycase 8y ago

You sleep because going through life sleep deprived is torture. Nothing else to it friend.

TheTrotters 8y ago
Right? When reading such comments I sometimes replace “sleep” with “eating” or “drinking”. It’s insane. If my basic physiological needs aren’t met I’m miserable and unable to enjoy the pleasures of life.

sp3000 8y ago

Someone else already recommended "Why We Sleep" by the premier sleep researcher in the field, and I highly suggest you get it. Here is a passage from it that should make you rethink the entire rationale you are using to shortchange yourself of sleep: "Routinely sleeping less than six or seven hours a night demolishes your immune system, more than doubling your risk of cancer. Insufficient sleep is a key lifestyle factor determining whether or not you will develop Alzheimer’s disease. Inadequate sleep—even moderate reductions for just one week—disrupts blood sugar levels so profoundly that you would be classified as pre-diabetic. Short sleeping increases the likelihood of your coronary arteries becoming blocked and brittle, setting you on a path toward cardiovascular disease, stroke, and congestive heart failure. Fitting Charlotte Brontë’s prophetic wisdom that “a ruffled mind makes a restless pillow,” sleep disruption further contributes to all major psychiatric conditions, including depression, anxiety, and suicidality."

Gatsky 8y ago
Remember that the author is financially incentivised to make claims about large effect sizes of sleep deprivation, and to infer causality where it may or may not exist.
- sp3000 8y ago
  While it is good to be skeptical, the book really goes in depth and makes a compelling case. I also believe sleep is one of those areas that it is better to err on the side of getting the recommended amount. “If sleep does not serve an absolutely vital function, then it is the biggest mistake the evolutionary process has ever made.” - Dr. Allan Rechtschaffen.
  - Gatsky 8y ago
    They are all observational studies, usually with small cohorts. Same problem with nutrtitional science and psychology. History tells us again and again these results are biased, unduly influenced by the investigators and often overturned (eg Thinking Fast and Slow).
- 8y ago

olvo 8y ago

That reads a lot like the classic sleep deprived cycle. Hard to get up, tired for most of the day, exhausted after work, feels awake towards the evening, can't sleep, rinse and repeat. If that is the case I think the key is realizing that you are cheating yourself. When you aren't sleep deprived you should be able to do most of your required work mid-morning and take it easy in the afternoon. Then when you get home you won't be exhausted and can do whatever you want and still go to bed at ease.

PascLeRasc 8y ago

Once we get UBI or a <40 hour work week becomes the norm, this kind of stuff will be applicable to many more people. Right now a lot of the population can't afford to be healthy.

lev99 8y ago

There are other ways to get an extra 2-3 hrs a day that are not bad for your health. Some ideas. * Acquire a shorter commute by moving somewhere closer to work, shifting your working hours to avoid rush hour, or working from home. * Bike to work, to combine commuting and exercise time. * Hire help with daily chores like lawn work, house cleaning, laundry, and cooking. * Eat lunch at your desk

matwood 8y ago
A better way is stop doing stupid things. Many of us need to sleep in because we play around on our phones/games for hours before bed. I get up between 5-6 am every morning and go workout. Then I have super productive time for a few hours without interruptions. Come 9-10 pm I go to bed and am sleep in minutes from a full day. I realized that when I used to stay up later I wasn’t very productive, and just wasted a lot of time.
- ChildOfChaos 8y ago
  Do you not find you need some "stupid time" else all you do is sleep and work?
  - matwood 8y ago
    Actually no. I end up with more free time to do the things I want to do. Many of us (maybe not you specifically) just do things without really thinking about them. Watching TV, playing video games, etc... we do out of boredom or habit. Not because we really want to do them. I think PG has written about cutting out the bullshit that doesn't matter [1]. Those are the things I talk about being stupid. Does looking at FB for an hour before bed matter? How about some phone game? Or binging a whole Netflix series in one night? I get so much more done through the early parts of the day, I end up with more time to spend with my wife doing things we want to do. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html
- ehnto 8y ago
  Everyone is different, but I found it is down to allocating the time you are most productive effectively. If you want to get work done and you work best in the morning with no distractions, get up early and go to sleep early. If you work best at night, stay up late and maximise your time in those productive hours. If you are comfortable with your day job and want to maximise life enjoyment it's pretty much the same thing, except you're picking the time best suited for what makes you happy. No surprise that active people like to get up and excercise early, lots of daylight and that fresh morning air is invigorating. It's also no surprise that people who like to game or veg out tend to do it at night when they are slowing down from the day. It is a concious choice though, and I feel many just accidentally fall into a pattern and forget they usually have the agency to choose.

tw1010 8y ago

Aren't you curious about the world, about history, about psychology? You won't be able to learn deep rich history if you don't remember what you read in the first nine books once you get to the real payoff in the tenth book.

shittyadmin 8y ago
Honestly, I'm not. I like to build things, software, hobby electronics, a bit of cooking and baking, but all of that stuff is best learned through experience, not rote memoization. Other than that though I find it far more enjoyable to do something other than blindly consume knowledge for no purpose, I'd much rather engage in social activities or play games - even making numbers go up is more satisfying to me than memorizing factoids of limited practical use to me.
- dabei 8y ago
  Personally as a software engineer I feel quality sleep makes a big difference on the quality of learning I get through experience. I'm more sensitive to the details that matter and develop deeper insights when encountering a new problem.

dhnsmakala 8y ago

What do you stay up to do that you enjoy? I think that for most people who don't get enough sleep it's not because they are busy squeezing every bit of joy out of life. It's because they're using their phone in bed, watching TV, etc.

bpchaps 8y ago

Heh. You'd be surprised, so long as you're willing to apply your skills outside of employment and with the knowledge that you might not get paid for it. There are SO MANY fields of applied programming that are currently completely starved for resources. Think of it in terms of open source projects, where the projects that you might be interested have only a few people working on them - but in the context of issues that affect folk completely outside of tech who don't have disposable income like those you'd see on HN or similar. I seriously recommend that you check out a local "open data civics" group, or something similar in your area. You'll find that they're generally filled with junior programmers - but what they need are senior level programmers who can take charge of problems that junior programmers otherwise can't take charge of. Be that person. FWIW, personally everything that I learn is entirely aimed towards helping the general public (at a distance), at the expense of my own salary. The work has been very rewarding. That said, it would be great if others would take the plunge that I have.

mountainplus 8y ago
This is very interesting train of thought and I've been trying for the past two years to find these type of opportunities within my wider network of acquaintances. Still, not much luck. Would you have some ideas / insights / further concrete examples on what could one do? I am very motivated to help and give back to those around because there is not much else I can do except for this. Feel free to email me at the address in my desc. Thanks-a-lot!
- bsmitty5000 8y ago
  I was moved to action by this comment as well. I found a local chapter of Code for America that seems pretty active. Maybe your city as something similar?
shittyadmin 8y ago
You can't be serious. Why would I want to come home and continue applying the same skillset I apply at work all day? Is there something about software development that makes people feel the need to practice it every waking minute of their lives? I mean, sometimes I do it when there's an itch I really need scratched, but most of the time I'd rather do something else. Basically anything else. Is it so wrong to want to socialize a bit or put on one of the pile of TV shows and anime I'd like to check out? Doing that sort of volunteer work is great, but I just can't, I need to turn it off at some point.

erfgh 8y ago

Why can't you do those things you enjoy in the morning?

ArrayList 8y ago
Who has time to do anything in the morning? It's grab a cup of coffee and rush into traffic to support the dominator culture/society.

thinkxl 8y ago

I hope nobody follows this advice. Sleep is very important for your physical and mental health, and it affects people around you, too. Even those two extra hours you can add are really important. You probably could say "yeah, I'll just drink coffee in the morning," well, NOTHING is a replacement for sleep and coffee has some repercussions in your sleep too (depending on quantity and when you drink it). So if you are sleep deprived and adding coffee to the mix, you're doing it wrong. Inform yourself, read books about it, ask doctors, don't make decisions based on what people say on the internet (myself included) and you will notice a big difference almost right away. I stopped drinking coffee (because I have terrible reflux) and started sleeping more. I wake up in a better mood; I noticed that I'm more productive at work because I'm less stressed, plus my family noticed the change too.

hhjinks 8y ago
Not to mention that a good night's sleep is one of the best feelings I know. I try my best to get at least 8 hours of sleep every night, and waking up in the morning is almost a joy.