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I hope everyone who condemns the Saudis and those doing business w/them are doing the same with those doing so with China. China regularly disappears its citiz

by mrkstu 8y ago

I hope everyone who condemns the Saudis and those doing business w/them are doing the same with those doing so with China. China regularly disappears its citizens, and now openly is sending them by the hundreds of thousands to re-education camps. Xi and Prince Salman are two sides of the same coin and if you're comfortable with one and not the other, you're just virtue signaling. I'm just a IT guy at a business that doesn't have to do business with either regime, so I don't care where people come down on this per se, other than being tired of rampant hypocrisy.

chrisacky 8y ago
Isn't your attitude basically. "whataboutism" [1]. The journey to change starts with a single action... don't disagree with the hypocrisy, but change can't happen if it's prevented from operating in some circumstances in a silo. [1] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- bigmattystyles 8y ago
  Not really, whataboutism is excusing one by pointing out the other. This is saying don’t forget about X as well if we clean house of morally questionable sources of money.
- mrkstu 8y ago
  I was going to proactively address this but hoped it wouldn't have been necessary. In this case the parallels are so stark that it practically screams out its own blatancy. Google's planned submission to China's regime is just the beginning of where things have been are are going towards with Xi's China. Since the Prince's extralegal extortion of the uber rich class in Saudi Arabia its been obvious that he's been concentrating power in his hands like Xi. Turkey, Russia, Syria, Hungary, China, Venezuela- oppressive strong-men governments are rising like floods in narrow canyons after a storm. It is time that we identify the systemic rise of these Putin clones and decide on a coordinated and consistent response.
ganeshkrishnan 8y ago
And Australia: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/20/australia/nauru-children-australia-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/20/australia/nauru-children-... Children have died in the detention center with government refusing them even medical care. A 16 year old died few months back waiting for his parents. No media or press is allowed on the island. To top it off one of their senator wanted "final solution" for their immigrants and this week the government voted for "it's ok to be White" because of racism and discrimination against white race.
- vkou 8y ago
  And while we're making a list, we should also include another notable middle eastern state, that's a bit infamous for being an apartheid regime.
  - tartoran 8y ago
    Do you mean Israel?
dmode 8y ago
There are some similarities, but there are VAST differences between China and Saudi. In China, women's rights and conditions are far better than Saudi. There are no restrictions on women driving or taking the subway or wearing whatever they want or working wherever they want. China is miles ahead of Saudi in equality. I am not sure about LGBT rights in China, but I will go out on a limb and say that they are probably better than Saudi. And then the spread of Wahhabism. China is not funding thousands of Madrasas in foreign lands to spread extremist views. China is also investing massively in renewable energy. China has its issues, but let's not conflate them with Saudis.
- creaghpatr 8y ago
  Sounds like Wahhaboutism.
- ArchTypical 8y ago
  > China is miles ahead of Saudi in equality That really has nothing to do with the issue of totalitarianism. Some people are treated equal, some people are eliminated, so you get more equality? I think China is just as immoral as SA.
- nradov 8y ago
  While not at all equivalent to extremist Wahhabi madrassas, the Chinese government did set up the Confucius Institute to act as their propaganda arm in colleges around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institutes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institu...
ozmodiar 8y ago
I am not comfortable with either country (and likewise have no business in either). It’s where you say we shouldn’t act against one unless we act against both (or else be labeled virtue signalers) that this becomes whataboutism. It is not about the degree of their offences, or that ones is better/worse or significantly different, but paralyzing action or discussion unless it can always be dolled out equally every time that is the mark of whataboutism.
- mrkstu 8y ago
  If I was trying in any way to justify or excuse SA's behavior you'd be correct. I remember going camping/hiking in the top of the Uintah mountains as a kid and saw something that made sense but hadn't occurred to me before that time. In high mountain meadows there were hundreds of tiny rivulets coming off the snow pack. It was enlightening to see each of these seemingly independent rivulets gather down-elevation into brooks, streams and finally a decent sized river. Identifying that these cults of personality that are proliferating have a common source and that we need to address them as a single phenomenon isn't whataboutism, its trying to crystallize the challenge we are facing as a global society.
jiveturkey 8y ago
> China regularly disappears its citizens The difference here is that SA killed a citizen of another country. I'm not arguing the morality of it, just pointing out the important difference.
- cbnotfromthere 8y ago
  LOL! Kashoggi was (or is) a Saudi citizen. That's why he had to go to the Saudi consulate to get some papers. Duh.
- Koshkin 8y ago
  Somehow it seems to me that in this day and age this difference should not be important...
- tartoran 8y ago
  US resident but Saudi citizen... But how it happened, in a consulate, dismembered while possibly being alive and with strong evidence and links to BdS is not easy to fix and forget. I am horrified when I think about it. I'm aware other countries do it too, it's just that this was done with so much impunity that disturbs me most.

by mrkstu 8y ago

chrisacky 8y ago

Isn't your attitude basically. "whataboutism" [1]. The journey to change starts with a single action... don't disagree with the hypocrisy, but change can't happen if it's prevented from operating in some circumstances in a silo. [1] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

bigmattystyles 8y ago
Not really, whataboutism is excusing one by pointing out the other. This is saying don’t forget about X as well if we clean house of morally questionable sources of money.
mrkstu 8y ago
I was going to proactively address this but hoped it wouldn't have been necessary. In this case the parallels are so stark that it practically screams out its own blatancy. Google's planned submission to China's regime is just the beginning of where things have been are are going towards with Xi's China. Since the Prince's extralegal extortion of the uber rich class in Saudi Arabia its been obvious that he's been concentrating power in his hands like Xi. Turkey, Russia, Syria, Hungary, China, Venezuela- oppressive strong-men governments are rising like floods in narrow canyons after a storm. It is time that we identify the systemic rise of these Putin clones and decide on a coordinated and consistent response.

ganeshkrishnan 8y ago

And Australia: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/20/australia/nauru-children-australia-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/20/australia/nauru-children-... Children have died in the detention center with government refusing them even medical care. A 16 year old died few months back waiting for his parents. No media or press is allowed on the island. To top it off one of their senator wanted "final solution" for their immigrants and this week the government voted for "it's ok to be White" because of racism and discrimination against white race.

vkou 8y ago
And while we're making a list, we should also include another notable middle eastern state, that's a bit infamous for being an apartheid regime.
- tartoran 8y ago
  Do you mean Israel?

dmode 8y ago

There are some similarities, but there are VAST differences between China and Saudi. In China, women's rights and conditions are far better than Saudi. There are no restrictions on women driving or taking the subway or wearing whatever they want or working wherever they want. China is miles ahead of Saudi in equality. I am not sure about LGBT rights in China, but I will go out on a limb and say that they are probably better than Saudi. And then the spread of Wahhabism. China is not funding thousands of Madrasas in foreign lands to spread extremist views. China is also investing massively in renewable energy. China has its issues, but let's not conflate them with Saudis.

creaghpatr 8y ago
Sounds like Wahhaboutism.
ArchTypical 8y ago
> China is miles ahead of Saudi in equality That really has nothing to do with the issue of totalitarianism. Some people are treated equal, some people are eliminated, so you get more equality? I think China is just as immoral as SA.
nradov 8y ago
While not at all equivalent to extremist Wahhabi madrassas, the Chinese government did set up the Confucius Institute to act as their propaganda arm in colleges around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institutes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institu...

ozmodiar 8y ago

I am not comfortable with either country (and likewise have no business in either). It’s where you say we shouldn’t act against one unless we act against both (or else be labeled virtue signalers) that this becomes whataboutism. It is not about the degree of their offences, or that ones is better/worse or significantly different, but paralyzing action or discussion unless it can always be dolled out equally every time that is the mark of whataboutism.

mrkstu 8y ago
If I was trying in any way to justify or excuse SA's behavior you'd be correct. I remember going camping/hiking in the top of the Uintah mountains as a kid and saw something that made sense but hadn't occurred to me before that time. In high mountain meadows there were hundreds of tiny rivulets coming off the snow pack. It was enlightening to see each of these seemingly independent rivulets gather down-elevation into brooks, streams and finally a decent sized river. Identifying that these cults of personality that are proliferating have a common source and that we need to address them as a single phenomenon isn't whataboutism, its trying to crystallize the challenge we are facing as a global society.

jiveturkey 8y ago

> China regularly disappears its citizens The difference here is that SA killed a citizen of another country. I'm not arguing the morality of it, just pointing out the important difference.

cbnotfromthere 8y ago
LOL! Kashoggi was (or is) a Saudi citizen. That's why he had to go to the Saudi consulate to get some papers. Duh.
Koshkin 8y ago
Somehow it seems to me that in this day and age this difference should not be important...
tartoran 8y ago
US resident but Saudi citizen... But how it happened, in a consulate, dismembered while possibly being alive and with strong evidence and links to BdS is not easy to fix and forget. I am horrified when I think about it. I'm aware other countries do it too, it's just that this was done with so much impunity that disturbs me most.