7 ms·

What's up with this usage of the word "talent"? Tech is in such acute need of humble pie I don't even know where to begin. I'm becoming disillusioned. Why is a

by jahaja 8y ago

What's up with this usage of the word "talent"? Tech is in such acute need of humble pie I don't even know where to begin. I'm becoming disillusioned. Why is a programmer etc. a "talent", but a carpenter just an employee, hire or whatever? But maybe it's actually an appropriate term, now when our interview processes so clearly have ceased to be job interviews, and have become auditions - because nothing less satisfies our own grandiose self-importance. > "On the other hand, how many companies desperately need product talents to figure out what is valuable to produce?" These middle-management positions are so unmeasurable that I think they may be greatest source of bullshit jobs in tech. So if it's true that their success is largely unmeasureable, I wonder how you've come to that conclusion?

fredgrott 8y ago
mainly because while we all go through the same basic CS-math foundations in HS...most never learn how to apply them...
payne92 8y ago
...because the skill gap between “ok”, “good”, and “great” is so much bigger for some jobs (software development) than it is for other jobs (carpentry).
- padthai 8y ago
  You would be surprised how hard is and how many years takes to be a good cabinetmaker.
- enjo 8y ago
  It's not tho. It's really not. Most of the software you use every day was developed by very average software developers. The vast majority of the work software developers do isn't terribly novel or particularly difficult. And you know what? They do just fine. Things work well. Systems stay on line. Companies make money. I've seen too many "bad" teams produce perfectly functional software over the years to think that this gap exists anywhere but in Joel Spolsky essays. I think comparing carpenters to software engineers does a disservice to carpenters. Software developers to me are more like dry-wallers. A really good one can do it faster, but the end result mostly always looks the same. The difference between an average and a great carpenter, however, is immediately obvious. There is real craftsmanship there, and you can clearly see the difference. It isn't until you get to the edges of software development that those same differences become clear. When you're dealing with very high scale, very aggressive performance metrics, or very difficult mathematical concepts you see the difference between average and great developers. But those are less than a fraction of 1% of software projects I'd wager. * I should note: I'm a software developer.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    It really is night and day between a good dev and a bad dev. The key factor that you're probably not thinking about is time. A good dev doesn't think faster or have blazing fingers that fly across the keyboard, a good dev is constantly setting him/herself up to shave time off of future tasks, and those investments are constantly paying dividends. Those "bad" teams can definitely produce software that runs, but they do it 10x slower than a "good" team could. What takes a bad team of four six months to make takes a good team of two only 5 or 6 weeks.
    - rusticpenn 8y ago
      In my view, a good developer writes maintainable code. Easy to understand, easy to fix, no spaghetti.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        Yes, but what's the point of maintainable code? Speed. Quickly understandable, quickly fixable, and quickly upgradable. Time is the key. Writing maintainable code is the investment a good developer makes because it pays off by increasing speed of interacting with that code.
  - jonnycoder 8y ago
    A more accurate comparison is that software devs are like general contractors. I’m referring to those contractors who have experience doing plumbing, drywall, framing, finish work, etc but learned where to sub out to be more efficient for both their profit and to save customers time and money. A bad contractor can make a remodel a complete nightmare. I should note that I’m a software dev and a family member is a general contractor
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    I’d argue they’re more like electricians. All their work is hidden behind the drywall, and as long as the lamp turns on, nobody has any idea of the absolute mess of wire that was used to turn on the single lamp. If you have great developers, there will be a single straight wire from the switch to the lamp. The end result for the user is the same though, until the mess of wire eventually overheats and burns down your house.
- aethros 8y ago
  Just because you cant distinguish the fine differences between a good and great carpenter doesn't mean they don't exist. Someone making detailed engravings for a casket is far more skilled than someone who hammers a wooden crate. Any profession to which someone can devote their life to (incl. carpentry or software development) is going to have gaps in skills between "ok", "good", and "great". Pejorative attitudes which measure something like software development as "harder" than carpentry are not beneficial and simply dilute the discourse.
- evasote 8y ago
  Whoa buddy. There's a huge difference in skills there.
- freedomben 8y ago
  As someone who has worked in carpentry, and as a software engineer for 10 years now, I completely disagree. I actually see the skill gap between ok, good, and great as being really similar in carpentry and software. A junior carpenter will make a lot of mistakes. Especially as many software devs are becoming more like "code plumbers," if anything the skill gap may be bigger in carpentry in the future.
samontar 8y ago
It’s just terminology from acting. Wouldn’t read too much into it. Getting annoyed by that is like being upset you have a team in your org called HR. “Human Resources? Am I just a unit of raw material to be put through the factory?!”
- lostlogin 8y ago
  > Am I just a unit of raw material to be put through the factory?!” Yes. This one is accurate.
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    I prefer the term 'Human Accounting' myself.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Human Remains is one term used in the UK
      - ams6110 8y ago
        "Personnel" is the older, more appropriate name.
        Aeolun 8y ago
        Why did we ever change? New hip management terms?
        ksec 8y ago
        US invented HR, and the world adopted it.
        pm90 8y ago
        “Associates”
        8y ago
dmitriy_ko 8y ago
"Talent" is now used in the context of recruitment for almost any job that requires some level of skill. E.g. I heard it being used for police officers ("law enforcement talent").
akiselev 8y ago
I think it's about visibility of failure. When a carpenter or office worker make a mistake, it often doesn't take an expert to figure it out (and if it does, it's always a "clerical" error, not an honest mistake in a complex environment). Thus, whenever people look at these jobs, they're not seeing skilled laborers but someone whose time is simply less valuable than theirs. If only they had the time, they could have done it better - whereas programming is mysterious so they need "talent."
- RaceWon 8y ago
  In NYC it takes 8 years verifiable work experience (by W-2 forms) Before you are allowed to take a Plumbing test, for your license. I guarantee that you would Not be able to trouble shoot a problem that a licensed plumber couldn't figure out. And yes, in a past life I was a master licensed plumber.
  - akiselev 8y ago
    Oh, no doubt. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, just to present a hypothesis on why I think people perceive some jobs as requiring talent.
    - RaceWon 8y ago
      Fair enough.
walshemj 8y ago
Because Tech is a "profession" and if you think we are you obviously haven't seen how other professions Architects for example and Journalists have a very high opinion of them selves.
- galfarragem 8y ago
  All idealists have an high opinion of themselves.
  - solveit 8y ago
    Journalists, idealists, pick one
- aesclepius 8y ago
  Come to the medical field, and it's all the way down.
- rswail 8y ago
  Except that Tech isn't a profession. Professions have bodies that establish and enforce professional standards and appropriate evaluations and credentials. Programmers that call themselves "engineers" are fooling themselves. Unless they are doing the sort of programming that the NASA shuttle team used, none of us are "engineers".
  - walshemj 8y ago
    In the UK The BCS and IEEE would beg to differ. And a profession is not just the piece of paper its about social standing and relative pay rates. And anyone with a degree who works in there field is a "engineer" even though the number that go for full Chartered status is a small minority - and that is more about who you know not what you know.
    - gaius 8y ago
      The BCS The BCS is a complete joke, completely irrelevant to anyone working in the field, I have no idea how it still exists or what it actually does for practitioners or for the industry.
obmelvin 8y ago
> These middle-management positions are so unmeasurable that I think they may be greatest source of bullshit jobs in tech. So if it's true that their success is largely unmeasureable, I wonder how you've come to that conclusion? But, product improvements shouldn't be immeasurable. Through analysis of engagement metrics, talking with users, etc. one can measure improvements. Sure, it isn't a direct measurement, but pure unmeasurable intuition is not how good PMs function
- rswail 8y ago
  Except that no one actually evaluates KPIs like that. Product improvements are not KPIs that anyone gets measured on.
- alexgmcm 8y ago
  But the problem is that even if you measure an increase in KPIs you can't accurately attribute that success to the different team members and in the end the manager tends to get disproportionate credit. It's the credit assignment problem IRL.

by jahaja 8y ago

fredgrott 8y ago

mainly because while we all go through the same basic CS-math foundations in HS...most never learn how to apply them...

payne92 8y ago

...because the skill gap between “ok”, “good”, and “great” is so much bigger for some jobs (software development) than it is for other jobs (carpentry).

padthai 8y ago
You would be surprised how hard is and how many years takes to be a good cabinetmaker.
enjo 8y ago
It's not tho. It's really not. Most of the software you use every day was developed by very average software developers. The vast majority of the work software developers do isn't terribly novel or particularly difficult. And you know what? They do just fine. Things work well. Systems stay on line. Companies make money. I've seen too many "bad" teams produce perfectly functional software over the years to think that this gap exists anywhere but in Joel Spolsky essays. I think comparing carpenters to software engineers does a disservice to carpenters. Software developers to me are more like dry-wallers. A really good one can do it faster, but the end result mostly always looks the same. The difference between an average and a great carpenter, however, is immediately obvious. There is real craftsmanship there, and you can clearly see the difference. It isn't until you get to the edges of software development that those same differences become clear. When you're dealing with very high scale, very aggressive performance metrics, or very difficult mathematical concepts you see the difference between average and great developers. But those are less than a fraction of 1% of software projects I'd wager. * I should note: I'm a software developer.
- diminoten 8y ago
  It really is night and day between a good dev and a bad dev. The key factor that you're probably not thinking about is time. A good dev doesn't think faster or have blazing fingers that fly across the keyboard, a good dev is constantly setting him/herself up to shave time off of future tasks, and those investments are constantly paying dividends. Those "bad" teams can definitely produce software that runs, but they do it 10x slower than a "good" team could. What takes a bad team of four six months to make takes a good team of two only 5 or 6 weeks.
  - rusticpenn 8y ago
    In my view, a good developer writes maintainable code. Easy to understand, easy to fix, no spaghetti.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Yes, but what's the point of maintainable code? Speed. Quickly understandable, quickly fixable, and quickly upgradable. Time is the key. Writing maintainable code is the investment a good developer makes because it pays off by increasing speed of interacting with that code.
- jonnycoder 8y ago
  A more accurate comparison is that software devs are like general contractors. I’m referring to those contractors who have experience doing plumbing, drywall, framing, finish work, etc but learned where to sub out to be more efficient for both their profit and to save customers time and money. A bad contractor can make a remodel a complete nightmare. I should note that I’m a software dev and a family member is a general contractor
- Aeolun 8y ago
  I’d argue they’re more like electricians. All their work is hidden behind the drywall, and as long as the lamp turns on, nobody has any idea of the absolute mess of wire that was used to turn on the single lamp. If you have great developers, there will be a single straight wire from the switch to the lamp. The end result for the user is the same though, until the mess of wire eventually overheats and burns down your house.
aethros 8y ago
Just because you cant distinguish the fine differences between a good and great carpenter doesn't mean they don't exist. Someone making detailed engravings for a casket is far more skilled than someone who hammers a wooden crate. Any profession to which someone can devote their life to (incl. carpentry or software development) is going to have gaps in skills between "ok", "good", and "great". Pejorative attitudes which measure something like software development as "harder" than carpentry are not beneficial and simply dilute the discourse.
evasote 8y ago
Whoa buddy. There's a huge difference in skills there.
freedomben 8y ago
As someone who has worked in carpentry, and as a software engineer for 10 years now, I completely disagree. I actually see the skill gap between ok, good, and great as being really similar in carpentry and software. A junior carpenter will make a lot of mistakes. Especially as many software devs are becoming more like "code plumbers," if anything the skill gap may be bigger in carpentry in the future.

samontar 8y ago

It’s just terminology from acting. Wouldn’t read too much into it. Getting annoyed by that is like being upset you have a team in your org called HR. “Human Resources? Am I just a unit of raw material to be put through the factory?!”

lostlogin 8y ago
> Am I just a unit of raw material to be put through the factory?!” Yes. This one is accurate.
- WalterSear 8y ago
  I prefer the term 'Human Accounting' myself.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Human Remains is one term used in the UK
    - ams6110 8y ago
      "Personnel" is the older, more appropriate name.
      - Aeolun 8y ago
        Why did we ever change? New hip management terms?
        ksec 8y ago
        US invented HR, and the world adopted it.
      - pm90 8y ago
        “Associates”
      - 8y ago

dmitriy_ko 8y ago

"Talent" is now used in the context of recruitment for almost any job that requires some level of skill. E.g. I heard it being used for police officers ("law enforcement talent").

akiselev 8y ago

I think it's about visibility of failure. When a carpenter or office worker make a mistake, it often doesn't take an expert to figure it out (and if it does, it's always a "clerical" error, not an honest mistake in a complex environment). Thus, whenever people look at these jobs, they're not seeing skilled laborers but someone whose time is simply less valuable than theirs. If only they had the time, they could have done it better - whereas programming is mysterious so they need "talent."

RaceWon 8y ago
In NYC it takes 8 years verifiable work experience (by W-2 forms) Before you are allowed to take a Plumbing test, for your license. I guarantee that you would Not be able to trouble shoot a problem that a licensed plumber couldn't figure out. And yes, in a past life I was a master licensed plumber.
- akiselev 8y ago
  Oh, no doubt. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, just to present a hypothesis on why I think people perceive some jobs as requiring talent.
  - RaceWon 8y ago
    Fair enough.

walshemj 8y ago

Because Tech is a "profession" and if you think we are you obviously haven't seen how other professions Architects for example and Journalists have a very high opinion of them selves.

galfarragem 8y ago
All idealists have an high opinion of themselves.
- solveit 8y ago
  Journalists, idealists, pick one
aesclepius 8y ago
Come to the medical field, and it's all the way down.
rswail 8y ago
Except that Tech isn't a profession. Professions have bodies that establish and enforce professional standards and appropriate evaluations and credentials. Programmers that call themselves "engineers" are fooling themselves. Unless they are doing the sort of programming that the NASA shuttle team used, none of us are "engineers".
- walshemj 8y ago
  In the UK The BCS and IEEE would beg to differ. And a profession is not just the piece of paper its about social standing and relative pay rates. And anyone with a degree who works in there field is a "engineer" even though the number that go for full Chartered status is a small minority - and that is more about who you know not what you know.
  - gaius 8y ago
    The BCS The BCS is a complete joke, completely irrelevant to anyone working in the field, I have no idea how it still exists or what it actually does for practitioners or for the industry.

obmelvin 8y ago

> These middle-management positions are so unmeasurable that I think they may be greatest source of bullshit jobs in tech. So if it's true that their success is largely unmeasureable, I wonder how you've come to that conclusion? But, product improvements shouldn't be immeasurable. Through analysis of engagement metrics, talking with users, etc. one can measure improvements. Sure, it isn't a direct measurement, but pure unmeasurable intuition is not how good PMs function

rswail 8y ago
Except that no one actually evaluates KPIs like that. Product improvements are not KPIs that anyone gets measured on.
alexgmcm 8y ago
But the problem is that even if you measure an increase in KPIs you can't accurately attribute that success to the different team members and in the end the manager tends to get disproportionate credit. It's the credit assignment problem IRL.