10 ms·

Why don't the bigwigs like RedHat + IBM just fork it already ? Take OpenJDK , GPL the IBM runtime and slap some stupid coffee inspired nickname on it. People w

Why don't the bigwigs like RedHat + IBM just fork it already ? Take OpenJDK , GPL the IBM runtime and slap some stupid coffee inspired nickname on it. People will trust that more than they trust Oracle anyway...

chrisseaton 8y ago
Do they have the expertise and mass to maintain the whole of the JVM and add new functionality? They have tiny VM teams and labs compared to Oracle.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
amelius 8y ago
Last time somebody copied the API there was a lawsuit.
- simion314 8y ago
  There are some rules if you want to re implement Java, but it is possible since we have many alternatives to chose from. T^he main point is to pass all the needed tests to confirm your re-implementation is compatible and not do what MS tried to do (embrace,extend,extinguish)
  - lmm 8y ago
    You missed that you will be arbitrarily denied the ability to actually run those tests if you're trying to make a true open source implementation - see Apache Harmony.
    - simion314 8y ago
      That is old news, do you have an uptodate link?
      - lmm 8y ago
        What's changed? There still isn't an independent implementation of Java, Harmony is still shut down because they were arbitrarily denied a TCK license.
    - jerven 8y ago
      The TCK has been open sourced, since then. However, I think only for GPL implementations, see details at http://openjdk.java.net/groups/conformance/JckAccess/ http://openjdk.java.net/groups/conformance/JckAccess/
      - lmm 8y ago
        That doesn't sound like an open source license at all - you have to submit a form to Oracle and they'll decide whether you get a copy or not.
afroboy 8y ago
Do you know what happen last time someone forked Java? Ask Microsoft.
- mda 8y ago
  Java was not open source at the time. It is possible to fork now.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
Oowee1Ee 8y ago
Why should they? Java development is more open now than it has ever been and non-oracle entities have already taken on larger roles than before. To me it looks like things are working.
filomeno 8y ago
Why should they fork an open, actively maintained project like OpenJDK? It would only create incompatibilities between them.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Because Oracle is continuing to put a lot of R&D resources into Java and is generally not doing a terrible job with nice work around modernizing the language, contributing non trivial innovation around e.g. the Graal project, etc. Like them or not, Oracle is doing a lot of heavy lifting and most of it is released through Openjdk as 100% OSS under the GPL. So, neither IBM nor Red Hat have any big issues with the status quo. They get to do their own thing, support their customers, and they get to ship openjdk with no strings attached.
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>Oracle is doing a lot of heavy lifting and most of it is released through Openjdk as 100% OSS under the GPL. At some point they are going to want see some profits in return given how many Android phones are being sold. And needless to mention how much of world's software runs on Java today.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    Oracle took over Java 8+ years ago. Don't you think if they wanted to "see some profits" they might've done it already ?
    - kamaal 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_America,_Inc._v._Google,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_America,_Inc._v._Google.... Oracle has sought upward of US$8.8 billion in damages due to the commercial success of the Android system. Nothing wrong with it, of course. If a company wants customers to pay for their products, then they are right. People just need to know before hand, than being sold on it as free, and then asked to pay $XK per installation box a few years down the lane.
      - pron 8y ago
        BTW, Microsoft has already extracted billions from Android due to litigation or threats of litigation over patents.
threeseed 8y ago
Do you honestly write in Java/Scala/Clojure etc ? Because I have never met a single JVM developer who either (a) wants another JVM fork, (b) wants OpenJDK to be undermined or (c) thinks Oracle has been anything other than a pretty great steward of the platform.
- MaxBarraclough 8y ago
  Point (c) is changing with this recent kerfuffle, no?
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Only by the Oracle haters that lack experience on the Java world. Sun, Bea and many others used to charge for support as well, IBM still charges for it, but it is good to pay them because it wasn't Oracle it seems.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      How does this square with the quote under following link from today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18217952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18217952?
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        I would take Gosling's opinion over Brian Cantrill's one, given who was actually involved with Java at Sun. Plus I belong to Java developers community since the early days, and I quite remember how the Sun, Oracle and IBM triad used to push Java altogether. Including those NC announcements made by Sun and Oracle.
  - simion314 8y ago
    I think you did not understand what is happening, Oracle Java8 is EOL, you have to take a decission: -continue using it without updates -pay for updates (similar how some banks pay MS for getting updates for some older Windows) -upgrade to a) paid Oracle version b) free OpenJDK c) some other Java re-implementation -do not upgrade but switch to OpenJDK(say for RedHat if you want support and fixes) This thing happened before, some product gets EOL and some big budget companies will pay to not upgrade and continue getting support. The only people that are affected is people that would like to get the extended support for free. Oracle,RedHat and others make money from offering support and updates. IMO Java ecosystem is healthy and competitive, you have alternatives, you have a group of companies working on it, you have many choices where to buy support if you need, you have a lot of tools and libraries that you can use. I am not using Java but in our project when e need to do some task we always try to use existing work, so we use CLI apps if possible and most of the time this apps are made in Java and are high quality and save us maybe months of work
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mabbo 8y ago
I think the likeliest candidate is Amazon. Gosling got hired a couple years ago. Internally, it's the main language used. Amazon wants to have control of it's destiny as much as possible. I suspect if Oracle started pushing their usual bullshit too hard, that's what would happen. And it's a situation where Oracle knows it, Amazon knows it, and everyone is playing game theory.

chrisseaton 8y ago

Do they have the expertise and mass to maintain the whole of the JVM and add new functionality? They have tiny VM teams and labs compared to Oracle.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

amelius 8y ago

Last time somebody copied the API there was a lawsuit.

simion314 8y ago
There are some rules if you want to re implement Java, but it is possible since we have many alternatives to chose from. T^he main point is to pass all the needed tests to confirm your re-implementation is compatible and not do what MS tried to do (embrace,extend,extinguish)
- lmm 8y ago
  You missed that you will be arbitrarily denied the ability to actually run those tests if you're trying to make a true open source implementation - see Apache Harmony.
  - simion314 8y ago
    That is old news, do you have an uptodate link?
    - lmm 8y ago
      What's changed? There still isn't an independent implementation of Java, Harmony is still shut down because they were arbitrarily denied a TCK license.
  - jerven 8y ago
    The TCK has been open sourced, since then. However, I think only for GPL implementations, see details at http://openjdk.java.net/groups/conformance/JckAccess/ http://openjdk.java.net/groups/conformance/JckAccess/
    - lmm 8y ago
      That doesn't sound like an open source license at all - you have to submit a form to Oracle and they'll decide whether you get a copy or not.

afroboy 8y ago

Do you know what happen last time someone forked Java? Ask Microsoft.

mda 8y ago
Java was not open source at the time. It is possible to fork now.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

Oowee1Ee 8y ago

Why should they? Java development is more open now than it has ever been and non-oracle entities have already taken on larger roles than before. To me it looks like things are working.

filomeno 8y ago

Why should they fork an open, actively maintained project like OpenJDK? It would only create incompatibilities between them.

jillesvangurp 8y ago

Because Oracle is continuing to put a lot of R&D resources into Java and is generally not doing a terrible job with nice work around modernizing the language, contributing non trivial innovation around e.g. the Graal project, etc. Like them or not, Oracle is doing a lot of heavy lifting and most of it is released through Openjdk as 100% OSS under the GPL. So, neither IBM nor Red Hat have any big issues with the status quo. They get to do their own thing, support their customers, and they get to ship openjdk with no strings attached.

kamaal 8y ago
>>Oracle is doing a lot of heavy lifting and most of it is released through Openjdk as 100% OSS under the GPL. At some point they are going to want see some profits in return given how many Android phones are being sold. And needless to mention how much of world's software runs on Java today.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Oracle took over Java 8+ years ago. Don't you think if they wanted to "see some profits" they might've done it already ?
  - kamaal 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_America,_Inc._v._Google,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_America,_Inc._v._Google.... Oracle has sought upward of US$8.8 billion in damages due to the commercial success of the Android system. Nothing wrong with it, of course. If a company wants customers to pay for their products, then they are right. People just need to know before hand, than being sold on it as free, and then asked to pay $XK per installation box a few years down the lane.
    - pron 8y ago
      BTW, Microsoft has already extracted billions from Android due to litigation or threats of litigation over patents.

threeseed 8y ago

Do you honestly write in Java/Scala/Clojure etc ? Because I have never met a single JVM developer who either (a) wants another JVM fork, (b) wants OpenJDK to be undermined or (c) thinks Oracle has been anything other than a pretty great steward of the platform.

MaxBarraclough 8y ago
Point (c) is changing with this recent kerfuffle, no?
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Only by the Oracle haters that lack experience on the Java world. Sun, Bea and many others used to charge for support as well, IBM still charges for it, but it is good to pay them because it wasn't Oracle it seems.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    How does this square with the quote under following link from today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18217952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18217952?
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      I would take Gosling's opinion over Brian Cantrill's one, given who was actually involved with Java at Sun. Plus I belong to Java developers community since the early days, and I quite remember how the Sun, Oracle and IBM triad used to push Java altogether. Including those NC announcements made by Sun and Oracle.
- simion314 8y ago
  I think you did not understand what is happening, Oracle Java8 is EOL, you have to take a decission: -continue using it without updates -pay for updates (similar how some banks pay MS for getting updates for some older Windows) -upgrade to a) paid Oracle version b) free OpenJDK c) some other Java re-implementation -do not upgrade but switch to OpenJDK(say for RedHat if you want support and fixes) This thing happened before, some product gets EOL and some big budget companies will pay to not upgrade and continue getting support. The only people that are affected is people that would like to get the extended support for free. Oracle,RedHat and others make money from offering support and updates. IMO Java ecosystem is healthy and competitive, you have alternatives, you have a group of companies working on it, you have many choices where to buy support if you need, you have a lot of tools and libraries that you can use. I am not using Java but in our project when e need to do some task we always try to use existing work, so we use CLI apps if possible and most of the time this apps are made in Java and are high quality and save us maybe months of work

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mabbo 8y ago

I think the likeliest candidate is Amazon. Gosling got hired a couple years ago. Internally, it's the main language used. Amazon wants to have control of it's destiny as much as possible. I suspect if Oracle started pushing their usual bullshit too hard, that's what would happen. And it's a situation where Oracle knows it, Amazon knows it, and everyone is playing game theory.